ATP impact

[Sluggo63]

Not at all. If my boss runs the company into the ground or just starts treating me like crap, I can go to another company in the industry and get a job with all the pay, benefits, schedule, vacation, etc. I have now. Piece of cake. If I worked for an airline and the same thing happened, I'm screwed - I have to start over at zero and watch some snot-nosed kid who happened to get hired the week before me get promoted first. That's ridiculous.

Really? So in your system, what's to prevent some snot-nosed whiz-kid leave his company and come to yours and be put in a position ahead of you, with better salary and compensation package, if your employer deems that the new guy has what they're looking for to fill that big promotion?

 

[RotorAndWing]

Look at the subject line... That started it, and we moved on to talking about the airline profession and Bad Things that might be coming down the pipe. I just had some thoughts about improving the system... I'd love to be an airline pilot if there were any sort of portability. As it is, I'll keep my plain ol' Monday-Friday ground pounder job and portability.



Not at all. If my boss runs the company into the ground or just starts treating me like crap, I can go to another company in the industry and get a job with all the pay, benefits, schedule, vacation, etc. I have now. Piece of cake. If I worked for an airline and the same thing happened, I'm screwed - I have to start over at zero and watch some snot-nosed kid who happened to get hired the week before me get promoted first. That's ridiculous.



I never proposed a national seniority list. If you go back and read what I proposed, seniority is still the largest part of the equation.

You're not in the airline industry, so why are you even concerned with hiring practices and employment within the industry?

 

[Slipkid65]

Look at the subject line... That started it, and we moved on to talking about the airline profession and Bad Things that might be coming down the pipe.

I'm familiar with the new ATP requirements. The majors are not experiencing any pilot shortages........

I just had some thoughts about improving the system... I'd love to be an airline pilot if there were any sort of portability. As it is, I'll keep my plain ol' Monday-Friday ground pounder job and portability.

How about you walk the walk a bit before talking the talk?

Not at all. If my boss runs the company into the ground or just starts treating me like crap, I can go to another company in the industry and get a job with all the pay, benefits, schedule, vacation, etc. I have now. Piece of cake. If I worked for an airline and the same thing happened, I'm screwed - I have to start over at zero and watch some snot-nosed kid who happened to get hired the week before me get promoted first. That's ridiculous.

See above.......

I never proposed a national seniority list. If you go back and read what I proposed, seniority is still the largest part of the equation.

As it should be.......

 

[Sluggo63]

It's funny how the majority of the people arguing against the seniority system at the airlines are ones who don't participate in it. They would have been airline pilots, if they could have just kept their seniority...

Anyhow, let me just clear up some misconceptions about what an airline pilot's union is and does.

No one answered my question before about portability of seniority between union shops, and I think I may know the answer, but correct me if I'm wrong. If I am a 15-year master electrician, not affiliated with a union, and decide to become a union electrician, do I start with 15 years of seniority when I join? I'm guessing "no." If I am a stevedore with the Teamsters, and I want to join the Longshoreman's Union (I.L.A./AFL-CIO), do I get to keep my seniority when I go from IBT to AFL-CIO? I don't think I would.

That is the same situation with airline pilots. The major airline unions are:
ALPA: UAL, DAL, FDX
IPA: UPS
APA: AAL
SWAPA: SWA
USAPA: USA (Soon to be APA)

These are each independent unions. Even ALPA, representing many airlines, is not a union, per-se, but a Association of Master Executive Councils (MECs), each operating as an independent union, in of itself.

My "Union," FedEx ALPA has Local Executive Councils in it. I am a member of LEC 79 (ANC based pilots). There are six other LECs in the FedEx MEC, with some of the LECs having "blocks" broken down in them.

Within my union (MEC), my seniority IS portable. I am an ANC based MD-11 FO. If there is an opening for B757 Captains in Memphis, and my seniority allows me to hold it, I can bid it, and slot myself in where my seniority would allow.

What I can't do, is take my seniority over to another "union" (MEC). I can't take my ALPA FDX MEC seniority number with me over to SWAPA and expect to get slotted into the middle of their list. Just like a AFL-CIO worker can't take their seniority with them to the Teamsters.

Another issue would be, when does a pilot get his or her "national seniority number?" The first day at a Part 121 airline? The date of their ATP? Commercial? What about corporate pilots? How about a military pilot who flies transport category aircraft around the world for 15 years, and doesn't start with an airline until they're 38. Do they get credit for the flying they did prior to getting an airline job? When do they get their "number?" Does he get slotted behind a 10 year RJ captain for a job flying B777s for FedEx around the globe? What if FedEx wanted to hire the military pilot over the RJ Captain for his international and widebody experience. Does the employer get to jump the seniority list because someone more junior has the experience that they're looking for?

A merit-based system is no better and ripe for manipulation. Trust me, I've seen it. The Air Force upgrades it's pilots on a nebulous pseudo-seniority/merit based system, and although it gets it right most of the time, there is a lot of cronyism that takes place. Capt Smith is an average pilot, but he's always volunteering for the additional duties... we'll reward him by sending him to Aircraft Commander upgrade before Captain Jones, even though Jones is arguably the better pilot. Capt Doe was a finance officer before she went to pilot training, so we need to get her to Instructor school ahead of everybody else so her Performance Report reflects that she's an IP so she can make Major. The list goes on...

Everyone arguing against the current system is coming at it from a point of "I can't take my seniority with me," but fails to realize that everyone else has portability, too. I'm sure that those arguing for a national list wouldn't be too happy if the portability ends up with them being constantly pushed down the list, versus them being the ones doing the pushing.

I could go on and on with the myriad of other issues with this national seniority list/national ranking system, but I'm tired and I have to fly tonight. So, that's my $0.02... It's worth about what you paid for it.

 

[Art VanDelay]

Only because of the seniority system... You're right, it'd probably take multiple airlines doing this to get a lot of people to jump ship.



No, the largest component would still be seniority, then flight experience. Those are easy. The "merit" component is more difficult. The reason I haven't created an exact specification for that is that I don't have the information to do so yet. I'd use the same process I use in my day job (Business Intelligence). The simple version: Meetings with stakeholders to learn the business inside and out, examination of data, and THEN coming up with a new system. I won't pretend to know everything I need to know to come up with a fully baked system - But you don't either. In fact, likely nobody does.

Let's look at this from the other side of the coin - why would the airlines even want to do this ? Is this move going to cost them money or make them money ? Keep in mind back in the late fifties the airlines could not see the wisdom of equipping their planes with radar ! That's how stingy and short sighted they can be.

 

[denverpilot]

If you read back to where I posted more details about that part, you'd understand that anyone who gives 0's to everyone (or 10's to everyone for that matter) would not be counted at all. It's not hard at all to normalize these things.

I'll call BS on this. It's NOT easy to normalize the data.

Google tried and in the process of making all their employees fit their "model", which assumed employees must fit a bell curve, trashed the review scores of otherwise worthy employees and terminated them for being on the bottom of the fake adjusted curve...

Went all the way to the CEO's office, according to the Judge who just heard one of the wrongful termination cases.

http://valleywag.gawker.com/eric-schmidt-personally-ruined-google-employees-review-1587309422

There's no way to normalize the numbers in a fair fashion. People lie to get what they want. Garbage in, garbage out. Math can't fix that. It can hint that it's going on, but any subjective measure can be manipulated.

 

[Henning]

The comparison Henning is making is more akin to corporate contract pilots. I know some who enjoy it but you need to be able to make contacts and be a good negotiator.

No, actually the comparisons I am making are how the UNIONS differ between the maritime unions and airline unions, all this is in the commercial sector.

 

[Henning]

You proposed a national ranking system with other, more subjective elements.

Why national? Why not international? The same planes are used world wide, English is the official language of aviation, certifications are just a treaty away from being fungible; ExPat pilots already are an industry standard in most of the world.

What I see as the problem with airline unions is they are not providing a value that compensates for their cost.

 

[jonnyjetprop]

Back to the OP question. The rule has gone down the way most consumer protection legislation has in the past.

The industry doesn't like the rule.

Industry is trying to get the rule thrown out.

Industry failed to plan for the implementation of the new rules.

There are real issues because industry didn't plan or hoped the rule would just go away and it didn't.

Slowly, the system adjusts and compensates to the new rule.

I'll leave to discussion on this note. I don't think the problem is starting pay. The real reason why fewer people are willing to go into professional flying is that unlike doctors and lawyers, the costs associated with entry no longer match the benefits at the end. The juice simply isn't worth the squeeze.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I'm sure that those arguing for a national list wouldn't be too happy if the portability ends up with them being constantly pushed down the list, versus them being the ones doing the pushing.

To answer one of your questions. Seniority starts with 121 employment. Military and corporate experience is fine but it is not airline.

To address your quote above. The assumption that those of us desiring a national list for 121 are wishing upon a star to get seniority over someone else that we can't under the current system is disingenuous.

I would like to see it because it protects all of my brothers and sisters flying the line. I did leave 121 behind for a different type of flying that more suited my life goals. Not because it was a bad job or I felt the union system had harmed me.

I'll give a real world example of why I think a national system is needed. I was riding jumpseat on a mainline passenger carrier. The captain and the FO had a 13month difference in DOH. Both had over 30 years longevity at the airline. The FO had never upgraded. The captain upgraded and kept it without getting bumped back to the right seat at 6 years longevity. They explained to me how the airline had merged with another carrier just after the captain upgraded. Every time the FO was getting close to upgrading another merger or bankruptcy cycle would come around. He never got a furlough but the poor dude is sitting right seat for his entire airline career. There are captains within his pilot group that were in elementary school when he was already flying the line with the 121 operation. They just happened to be lucky and were captains at a small relatively new operation that merged with his older bigger airline. It is not appropriate for him to be locked out of upgrade for his entire career. That young guy holding the captain seat at the little startup should feel lucky to have had the opportunity to be the captain for a while and after the merger moved back to the right seat....but thats not what happened.

I really hope you never find yourself in a situation where your fedex seniority doesn't mean anything...but it can happen. If it were to happen I believe your seniority is worth something and you should keep it with the new employer. How's that a bad thing? And how is it bad if fedex hires a pilot that has more seniority than you...he earned it. Do you think he shouldn't be senior to you.?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

You proposed a national ranking system with other, more subjective elements.

I did not propose a national system. I proposed a system. Airlines and their unions would be free to adopt something like it, or not.

Really? So in your system, what's to prevent some snot-nosed whiz-kid leave his company and come to yours and be put in a position ahead of you, with better salary and compensation package, if your employer deems that the new guy has what they're looking for to fill that big promotion?

Because that snot-nosed whiz kid would have no seniority AND no experience and would be at the bottom of the list still.

How about you walk the walk a bit before talking the talk?

Because A) I'm not willing to put that much control of my career into someone else's hands, and [NOPARSE]B)[/NOPARSE] I "walk the walk" of Business Intelligence every day, so I understand how a system like this could be implemented, with lots of benefits and little or no downside to both pilots and airlines.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

That is the same situation with airline pilots. The major airline unions are:
ALPA: UAL, DAL, FDX
IPA: UPS
APA: AAL
SWAPA: SWA
USAPA: USA (Soon to be APA)

These are each independent unions. Even ALPA, representing many airlines, is not a union, per-se, but a Association of Master Executive Councils (MECs), each operating as an independent union, in of itself.

My "Union," FedEx ALPA has Local Executive Councils in it. I am a member of LEC 79 (ANC based pilots). There are six other LECs in the FedEx MEC, with some of the LECs having "blocks" broken down in them.

Within my union (MEC), my seniority IS portable. I am an ANC based MD-11 FO. If there is an opening for B757 Captains in Memphis, and my seniority allows me to hold it, I can bid it, and slot myself in where my seniority would allow.

What I can't do, is take my seniority over to another "union" (MEC). I can't take my ALPA FDX MEC seniority number with me over to SWAPA and expect to get slotted into the middle of their list. Just like a AFL-CIO worker can't take their seniority with them to the Teamsters.

But can you take your ALPA seniority over to UAL or DAL? No. That's the problem.

Another issue would be, when does a pilot get his or her "national seniority number?" The first day at a Part 121 airline? The date of their ATP? Commercial? What about corporate pilots? How about a military pilot who flies transport category aircraft around the world for 15 years, and doesn't start with an airline until they're 38. Do they get credit for the flying they did prior to getting an airline job? When do they get their "number?" Does he get slotted behind a 10 year RJ captain for a job flying B777s for FedEx around the globe? What if FedEx wanted to hire the military pilot over the RJ Captain for his international and widebody experience. Does the employer get to jump the seniority list because someone more junior has the experience that they're looking for?

Again, I'm not one of the ones proposing a national system - But I'll answer your questions for my proposed system to hopefully clarify it a bit:

1) It wouldn't use a "seniority number" per se, the number that the computer kicked out would be based on several things, of which seniority is the biggest component. The seniority portion of it would be based on their hire date at whatever airline they're flying with, exactly as it is now.

2) Corporate pilots moving to the airlines would get credit for their flight experience, but they'd still be coming in with no seniority. For example, a corporate pilot with 7,000 hours that moves to an airline would be roughly equal to a pilot for that airline that had 3,000 hours and had been there for 3 years.

3) Military pilots would likewise get credit for their flight experience, but they'd have no seniority. Same as corporate.

4) The "10 year RJ captain" and the military pilot and the corporate pilot going to fly for FedEx would all have zero seniority with FedEx and would be ranked based on their flight experience (assuming all three were hired).

5) The airline would be free to hire based on the same criteria they do now and would probably take the military pilot with widebody and international experience. Again, the system I'm proposing is NOT a national seniority system.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Let's look at this from the other side of the coin - why would the airlines even want to do this ? Is this move going to cost them money or make them money ? Keep in mind back in the late fifties the airlines could not see the wisdom of equipping their planes with radar ! That's how stingy and short sighted they can be.

If it makes more people want to become pilots, it'll theoretically cost them less money in the long run.

Getting any company to take a long view on things these days is difficult, though. Instead, we're going to end up with the regionals bitching to congress about the "pilot shortage" until the rules change, at which everyone can continue the race to the bottom.

 

[Everskyward]

I did not propose a national system. I proposed a system. Airlines and their unions would be free to adopt something like it, or not.

Then how does the portability aspect fit in? You are still ranking people. That means they could be ranked within their airline, among airlines which share the same union or ??

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'll call BS on this. It's NOT easy to normalize the data.

Google tried and in the process of making all their employees fit their "model", which assumed employees must fit a bell curve, trashed the review scores of otherwise worthy employees and terminated them for being on the bottom of the fake adjusted curve...

Went all the way to the CEO's office, according to the Judge who just heard one of the wrongful termination cases.

http://valleywag.gawker.com/eric-schmidt-personally-ruined-google-employees-review-1587309422

There's no way to normalize the numbers in a fair fashion. People lie to get what they want. Garbage in, garbage out. Math can't fix that. It can hint that it's going on, but any subjective measure can be manipulated.

There would be no bell curve. I'm talking about normalizing the reviews on a per-employee basis so that Capt. Denverpilot Curmudgeon who doesn't give ANYONE a positive review wouldn't have an effect on anyone. Nor would FO Unicorn Smokeblower who gives EVERYONE a positive review. Nobody would be fit into anyone's mold but their own.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Then how does the portability aspect fit in? You are still ranking people. That means they could be ranked within their airline, among airlines which share the same union or ??

Each pilot would still have a ranking within their airline, as they do today - It just would not be based 100% on seniority.

The partial portability comes from also including things like flight experience. It would not be total portability, but it would prevent someone who's been in the industry for a while from starting over at the very bottom of the ladder when they have to switch jobs.

 

[Everskyward]

There would be no bell curve. I'm talking about normalizing the reviews on a per-employee basis so that Capt. Denverpilot Curmudgeon who doesn't give ANYONE a positive review wouldn't have an effect on anyone. Nor would FO Unicorn Smokeblower who gives EVERYONE a positive review. Nobody would be fit into anyone's mold but their own.

But in thinking of all the pilots I have flown with, I don't see a big difference in skill level, unless you are talking about someone who is new to whatever airplane it is. I'm not sure I could give any meaningful score in that aspect. On the other hand there are definitely people I would prefer to fly with over others, but that has more to do with personality, or personality conflict, than skill. I think your rating would turn into a personality contest. If you don't think so you have never worked with a group of pilots.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

But in thinking of all the pilots I have flown with, I don't see a big difference in skill level, unless you are talking about someone who is new to whatever airplane it is. I'm not sure I could give any meaningful score in that aspect. On the other hand there are definitely people I would prefer to fly with over others, but that has more to do with personality, or personality conflict, than skill. I think your rating would turn into a personality contest. If you don't think so you have never worked with a group of pilots.

I don't think my system would work well at a smaller company such as yours, Mari - It does somewhat rely on the relative anonymity among pilots at a large airline. But that's why it wouldn't be a national system... One size does NOT fit all.

 

[Everskyward]

I don't think my system would work well at a smaller company such as yours, Mari - It does somewhat rely on the relative anonymity among pilots at a large airline. But that's why it wouldn't be a national system... One size does NOT fit all.

But even in a big airline you would still have the problem of personality vs. skill. I can fly with someone I've never met as a sim partner and know in a couple days or less whether I'd ever want to fly with them at the same job. It usually doesn't have anything to do with their skill.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

But even in a big airline you would still have the problem of personality vs. skill. I can fly with someone I've never met as a sim partner and know in a couple days or less whether I'd ever want to fly with them at the same job. It usually doesn't have anything to do with their skill.

And that's OK. Having a good personality is a plus for a pilot. Maybe the curmudgeons would try to be nicer if they got paid for it.

 

[Everskyward]

And that's OK. Having a good personality is a plus for a pilot. Maybe the curmudgeons would try to be nicer if they got paid for it.

I think it has less to do with curmudgeons, although there are some of those, as basic differences in outlook (many times political and social). Of course you can put that aside and work together to do your job if you are professionals but there are definitely pairs of people who play together better than others. I still think it would turn into a personality contest.

 

[Art VanDelay]

To answer one of your questions. Seniority starts with 121 employment. Military and corporate experience is fine but it is not airline.

To address your quote above. The assumption that those of us desiring a national list for 121 are wishing upon a star to get seniority over someone else that we can't under the current system is disingenuous.

I would like to see it because it protects all of my brothers and sisters flying the line. I did leave 121 behind for a different type of flying that more suited my life goals. Not because it was a bad job or I felt the union system had harmed me.

I'll give a real world example of why I think a national system is needed. I was riding jumpseat on a mainline passenger carrier. The captain and the FO had a 13month difference in DOH. Both had over 30 years longevity at the airline. The FO had never upgraded. The captain upgraded and kept it without getting bumped back to the right seat at 6 years longevity. They explained to me how the airline had merged with another carrier just after the captain upgraded. Every time the FO was getting close to upgrading another merger or bankruptcy cycle would come around. He never got a furlough but the poor dude is sitting right seat for his entire airline career. There are captains within his pilot group that were in elementary school when he was already flying the line with the 121 operation. They just happened to be lucky and were captains at a small relatively new operation that merged with his older bigger airline. It is not appropriate for him to be locked out of upgrade for his entire career. That young guy holding the captain seat at the little startup should feel lucky to have had the opportunity to be the captain for a while and after the merger moved back to the right seat....but thats not what happened.

I really hope you never find yourself in a situation where your fedex seniority doesn't mean anything...but it can happen. If it were to happen I believe your seniority is worth something and you should keep it with the new employer. How's that a bad thing? And how is it bad if fedex hires a pilot that has more seniority than you...he earned it. Do you think he shouldn't be senior to you.?

But it's just like I said earlier - it sounds great but it would never work. If you were an 18 year captain no airline that needed a pilot would ever advertise for an 18 year captain. They'd advertise for a six or a four year one but never an 18 year one because they cost more.

 

[PPC1052]

But it's just like I said earlier - it sounds great but it would never work. If you were an 18 year captain no airline that needed a pilot would ever advertise for an 18 year captain. They'd advertise for a six or a four year one but never an 18 year one because they cost more.

This observation strikes me as true, too. As long as the pilot can get your flight from A to B reasonably on time, where's the need for the extra expense of 18 years of experience? After some point, extra experience doesn't really matter, or at least only negligibly so. I am sure that in a few circumstances, experience may avert a delay or a disaster, but how often? And is the amount really measurable? If not, then it's easy for the bean counters to assume any benefits away in favor of the numbers in black and white that differentiate the starting pay of a green-bean from the 18 year veteran.

 

[dmspilot]

But it's just like I said earlier - it sounds great but it would never work. If you were an 18 year captain no airline that needed a pilot would ever advertise for an 18 year captain. They'd advertise for a six or a four year one but never an 18 year one because they cost more.

They cost more under the seniority system. Circular reasoning.

 

[Larry in TN]

They cost more under the seniority system. Circular reasoning.

The seniority system prevents an airline from getting rid of their most senior pilots in order to replace them with cheap new-hires. If it didn't, they would be doing it.

A national seniority system would guarantee that once a pilot gained a good amount of experience they would be unattractive to any potential employers because they would cost too much.

 

[jhausch]

This observation strikes me as true, too. As long as the pilot can get your flight from A to B reasonably on time, where's the need for the extra expense of 18 years of experience? After some point, extra experience doesn't really matter, or at least only negligibly so. I am sure that in a few circumstances, experience may avert a delay or a disaster, but how often? And is the amount really measurable? If not, then it's easy for the bean counters to assume any benefits away in favor of the numbers in black and white that differentiate the starting pay of a green-bean from the 18 year veteran.

This is a good question.

 

[Henning]

But it's just like I said earlier - it sounds great but it would never work. If you were an 18 year captain no airline that needed a pilot would ever advertise for an 18 year captain. They'd advertise for a six or a four year one but never an 18 year one because they cost more.

But isn't that the way the market is supposed to work? Why is a union wage protection good and a minimum wage protection bad? Shouldn't the market just have free reign over what they pay?

 

[Henning]

The seniority system prevents an airline from getting rid of their most senior pilots in order to replace them with cheap new-hires. If it didn't, they would be doing it.

A national seniority system would guarantee that once a pilot gained a good amount of experience they would be unattractive to any potential employers because they would cost too much.

Not if there is no wage differential attached to union seniority, only company seniority. Fly right seat in equipment X it pays $$ to start, fly left seat in equipment X and it pays $$$ to start. You may hire in as an 'off the street captain' with base captain pay for that company (as long as you are qualified) regardless if you have 4 years as captain or 18. This would actually encourage hiring experience as they will retire before they hit full scale.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The seniority system prevents an airline from getting rid of their most senior pilots in order to replace them with cheap new-hires. If it didn't, they would be doing it.

No, the union prevents it. The seniority system would otherwise encourage it - Senior pilots cost a lot under the seniority system as well.

And the unions would still be serving the same functions they do today under my proposed system. IMO they are absolutely necessary to keep typical corporate BS from impacting safety.

 

[Everskyward]

No, the union prevents it. The seniority system would otherwise encourage it - Senior pilots cost a lot under the seniority system as well.

Another question would be why an airline would hire a senior captain from another airline rather than promoting from within. I can see that causing all sorts of conflict. Not only because someone cut the line but because the new person would have been used to doing things in another way. Anecdotally I heard grumbling among pilots from both sides of a recent merger about doing things the [cough] "C" way or the "U" way.

 

[denverpilot]

But it's just like I said earlier - it sounds great but it would never work. If you were an 18 year captain no airline that needed a pilot would ever advertise for an 18 year captain. They'd advertise for a six or a four year one but never an 18 year one because they cost more.

Electricians and plumbers Unions figured this out a long time ago. Ratings within the Union.

Journeyman Electrician, through Master Electrician. And the Union and government regulations require one type or another for specific jobs.

Bundle whatever skills and flight experience you like into the levels. That'd be a massive argument right there, but there's certainly objective measures that could be used to differentiate a Journeyman Pilot w/ Union confirmed Part 121 Endorsement with Gold Leaf Clusters (heh) from a Master Pilot w/Part 121 Union endorsement and Two Silver Stars for Unexpected Thunderstorm Penetration and Three Customer Service Purple Hearte for Chicago O'Hare ground stops.

I'm kinda joking to give it a little levity but really there are ways any Union worth its salt could structure a ratings system. And ways for pilots to earn their way up.

Anything is probably better than the "How many years you warmed a seat at a single airline" as an objective measure.

 

[Art VanDelay]

Electricians and plumbers Unions figured this out a long time ago. Ratings within the Union.

Journeyman Electrician, through Master Electrician. And the Union and government regulations require one type or another for specific jobs.

Bundle whatever skills and flight experience you like into the levels. That'd be a massive argument right there, but there's certainly objective measures that could be used to differentiate a Journeyman Pilot w/ Union confirmed Part 121 Endorsement with Gold Leaf Clusters (heh) from a Master Pilot w/Part 121 Union endorsement and Two Silver Stars for Unexpected Thunderstorm Penetration and Three Customer Service Purple Hearte for Chicago O'Hare ground stops.

I'm kinda joking to give it a little levity but really there are ways any Union worth its salt could structure a ratings system. And ways for pilots to earn their way up.

Anything is probably better than the "How many years you warmed a seat at a single airline" as an objective measure.

That would only work if the Feds were onboard and mandated it. What do you think the odds of that would be in our current extremely union un-friendly environment ?

 

[Henning]

Another question would be why an airline would hire a senior captain from another airline rather than promoting from within. I can see that causing all sorts of conflict. Not only because someone cut the line but because the new person would have been used to doing things in another way. Anecdotally I heard grumbling among pilots from both sides of a recent merger about doing things the [cough] "C" way or the "U" way.

Because not everyone in the right seat is ready for the left, and when operations expand, you may need to hire "off the street captains." They come in at the bottom of the captain scale at the company regardless of union seniority. Union seniority only gives them the preference on getting there.

 

[jhausch]

That would only work if the Feds were onboard and mandated it.

I agree. I would be a sanctioned monopoly, which is not unheard of (harbor pilots come to mind). My cockamamie plan tries to put something in there to benefit all parties, but salaries would likely go up and this would not, in the near term, benefit the flying public.

 

[Everskyward]

Because not everyone in the right seat is ready for the left, and when operations expand, you may need to hire "off the street captains." They come in at the bottom of the captain scale at the company regardless of union seniority. Union seniority only gives them the preference on getting there.

Pretty sure that is done now. I know it has been done in the past. But what some are talking about is not coming in at the bottom of the captain's scale, but coming in wherever they would fit in the national seniority program.

There has apparently been a quick shift from no movement and even furloughs to rapid advancement. In the no-movement era there were plenty of FOs ready to upgrade.

 

[Art VanDelay]

Because not everyone in the right seat is ready for the left, and when operations expand, you may need to hire "off the street captains." They come in at the bottom of the captain scale at the company regardless of union seniority. Union seniority only gives them the preference on getting there.

Yeah, see that doesn't really give me a warm and fuzzy insofar as salary portability is concerned. A guy could take a pretty good hit on his salary if he were to move to the bottom of the captain's scale. Not to mention all the senior F/Os you'd be ****ing off and ultimately have to work with. But it would of course be better than working in a cubicle too I suppose.

 

[Larry in TN]

Not if there is no wage differential attached to union seniority

I thought the whole point of these unworkable plans was so that a pilot could make a lateral move while maintaining a similar wage?

 

[RyanB]

August 2014 is closing in fast new ATP requirements are about to kick in. I would have thought some thought of sanity would have prevailed by now. The 2009 Colgan Air Flight 3407 was bad but the changes in requirements for ATP seem . Could be some light at the end of the tunnel as starting pay for airlines are going to have to go up to attract the lower number of pilots in the pool.

My local DPE said he doesn't see this new simulator time to really last too long. He said eventually the wealthy people will run out and the airlines will have no one to pull from and they won't be able to pay some 12-20k for simulator time for an ATP rating. The airlines will have to take new hires in and train them in their sims, under their penny.

 

[Henning]

I thought the whole point of these unworkable plans was so that a pilot could make a lateral move while maintaining a similar wage?

Similar, not same. Big difference between first year captain pay, and first year FO pay.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

But it's just like I said earlier - it sounds great but it would never work. If you were an 18 year captain no airline that needed a pilot would ever advertise for an 18 year captain. They'd advertise for a six or a four year one but never an 18 year one because they cost more.

since everyone works for the same union they get the pilot the union sends or no pilot at all.

what it comes down to is the airline industry pretends to be union but are not really union when you get to the brass tacks