ATC User Fees

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poadeleted4

Pre-Flight
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Apr 13, 2005
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If ATC is converted to a user fee based system, how will ATC verify that the airplane/pilot that is requesting ATC service is actually the airplane/pilot he/she says they are? Talk about a new identity theft opportunity. N #'s are as identifiable and individual as your SS#.
Hmmmmm.............
Gary
N#####:dunno:
 
Gary Miesch said:
If ATC is converted to a user fee based system, how will ATC verify that the airplane/pilot that is requesting ATC service is actually the airplane/pilot he/she says they are? Talk about a new identity theft opportunity. N #'s are as identifiable and individual as your SS#.
Hmmmmm.............
Gary
N#####:dunno:
Click to expand...

Gary, how does ATC confirm identity now? :dunno:
 
Mandatory Mode-S. It is (becoming) mandatory in Europe.....
 
wsuffa said:
Mandatory Mode-S. It is (becoming) mandatory in Europe.....
Click to expand...

Yes, but Mode S is NOT mandatory here. So, the question still lies; how does ATC positively ident AC now?
 
Big Bird said:
Yes, but Mode S is NOT mandatory here. So, the question still lies; how does ATC positively ident AC now?
Click to expand...

Visually.

But if ATC does go the "pay" route, you can bet that Mode S becomes mandatory. It might be done for "security" reasons before that.
 
wsuffa said:
Visually.

But if ATC does go the "pay" route, you can bet that Mode S becomes mandatory. It might be done for "security" reasons before that.
Click to expand...

Well, I don't get what you are saying. When I'm at 16,000 on an IFR flight plan, ATC "knows" who I am, where I am, and where I am going. They do not have a "visual".

IF is a mighty big word. And, why would Mode S offer different info to ATC the I don't provide already?

"Security" is another ballgame entirely.
 
Gary Miesch said:
N#####:dunno:
Click to expand...


Let me help out:

N116RC
Serial Number 14061 Type Registration Co-Owner
Manufacturer Name ROCKWELL INTERNATIONAL Certificate Issue Date 03/13/2003
Model 114 Status Valid
Type Aircraft Fixed Wing Single-Engine Type Engine Reciprocating
Pending Number Change None Dealer No
Date Change Authorized None Mode S Code 50041767
MFR Year 1976 Fractional Owner NO
 
Big Bird said:
Well, I don't get what you are saying. When I'm at 16,000 on an IFR flight plan, ATC "knows" who I am, where I am, and where I am going. They do not have a "visual".

IF is a mighty big word. And, why would Mode S offer different info to ATC the I don't provide already?
Click to expand...


ATC only "knows" whatever information you filed in the flight plan. While it is illegal to use anything other than your registration number, explain to me how ATC would know who you really are, if you depart a non-towered airport.

The suggestion is that if user fees come, people could just make up a number, and the rebuttal is that mandatory mode-S, which sends a unique identifier for each aircraft, would be the government's solution.

Jon
 
Precisely,
If I fly from an uncontrolled field to another uncontrolled field, there is no way for ATC to positively identify me without the use of Mode S. I can file an Instrument Flight Plan with FSS and receive a clearance from ATC with just one phone call. Nothing is verified. Everything is put into the system based on one thing, the N#!!!

Then, what happens if my Mode S Garmin 330 Transponder is stolen and used in another aircraft? Man, this is a huge bucket-o-worms! I certainly hope Congress considers all of the scenarios before they decide to change the way GA does business. Historically, we have gotten screwed. This is the beginning of the end for Instrument/GA if Congress allows ATC user based fees to be implemented in the U.S. I will avoid the system, I will not activate my transponder and I will remain clear of all controlled airspace. If I stay low enough(but above FAA minimums, of course) they will never see me.
Gary
N#####
 
wsuffa said:
Visually.

But if ATC does go the "pay" route, you can bet that Mode S becomes mandatory. It might be done for "security" reasons before that.
Click to expand...

I'll bet Mode S is easy to spoof. No doubt, some hacker will be selling illegal transponder mods that let you dial in whatever ID you want.

Personally I suspect that if ATC user fees become a reality, we will have to sign up for an ATC account complete with user ID and password that go on the flight plan form. That's probably not too secure either especially if you air-file. If they charge to the N number, FBO's are going to end up being the ones to chase down the pilots who incur the fees on the rental fleet.
 
*IF* they do implement this, I would hope that at first it's a per year / per plane fee (similar to NAV Canada's) and not a PER OPERATION fee...
 
Here comes Mode S for everyone. It will be billed as essential for the war against terrorism, so you're automatically an enemy of the king if you disagree.
- Richard
 
4CornerFlyer said:
ATC only "knows" whatever information you filed in the flight plan. While it is illegal to use anything other than your registration number, explain to me how ATC would know who you really are, if you depart a non-towered airport.

The suggestion is that if user fees come, people could just make up a number, and the rebuttal is that mandatory mode-S, which sends a unique identifier for each aircraft, would be the government's solution.

Jon
Click to expand...

Thanks, Jon. I still have trouble connecting "User fees" with mandatory Mode S. I don't have Mode S, yet NavCanada somehow manages to get my quarterly fees.

Is what has been suggested here is that ATC will require Mode S in order to bill the correct pilot for services? Seems like an upside down way to do it.
 
Gary Miesch said:
If ATC is converted to a user fee based system, how will ATC verify that the airplane/pilot that is requesting ATC service is actually the airplane/pilot he/she says they are? Talk about a new identity theft opportunity. N #'s are as identifiable and individual as your SS#.
Hmmmmm.............
Gary
N#####:dunno:
Click to expand...

The answer is simple.

ATC is unable to know who is using the sysytem and who is not.

Therefore,

All people who own planes will be charged a user fee, whether they use the system or not.
 
arranna said:
The answer is simple.

ATC is unable to know who is using the sysytem and who is not.

Therefore,

All people who own planes will be charged a user fee, whether they use the system or not.
Click to expand...
... and they'll fund it through a fuel tax ...

Bureaucracy comes full circle.
 
Did everybody else get the nice "please send money" letter from Boyer re: user fees?

I wish he had done more than ask for PAC funds... why not give us addresses and names to write to, of those involved in these committees? If they (the politicians) got several hundred thousand letters from us in addition to the fine work AOPA does, they might listen. Or, have they already made up their mind and the rest is just a "show" to say they had hearings on it?
 
Troy Whistman said:
Did everybody else get the nice "please send money" letter from Boyer re: user fees?

I wish he had done more than ask for PAC funds... why not give us addresses and names to write to, of those involved in these committees? If they (the politicians) got several hundred thousand letters from us in addition to the fine work AOPA does, they might listen. Or, have they already made up their mind and the rest is just a "show" to say they had hearings on it?
Click to expand...


Letters from constituents are important but an organized letter writing campaign can backfire. A PAC with money to spend is probably the best hope we have. Lets face it, few pilots are going to change party vote because of ATC users fee. Your congressman know that. Ironic as it is the more polarized we become the less they need to do to keep us happy.

But a special interest with money to donate is far more likely to get results. I sent Boyer some money, wish I had more to send.
 
The Mode S address is wired into the connector and read at power up. Stealing the transponder and putting in another aircraft would result in that aircraft's address being sent, not the address from the original aircraft.
 
Of course, Mode S assumes (dangerous word) that the a/c has an electrical system from which to power it in the first place...
 
RE: polarization. The rightful name is "Divide and Conquer". Pretty much describes what we have today.

While I do not posess any legitimate claims of genius, I saw this coming 20 years ago. The Fourth Estate has done much to foment the current stae of affairs. When any given poll shows 48-52% with +/- 3% margin you know Operation Us Vs Them has been accomplished.
 
Richard said:
RE: polarization. The rightful name is "Divide and Conquer". Pretty much describes what we have today.

While I do not posess any legitimate claims of genius, I saw this coming 20 years ago. The Fourth Estate has done much to foment the current stae of affairs. When any given poll shows 48-52% with +/- 3% margin you know Operation Us Vs Them has been accomplished.
Click to expand...

What comes immediately to my mind is; "I'm a uniter, not a divider". :(
 
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