ATC Jobs...

jaybee said:
How is the age limit not in violation of The Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 ?
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Last I remember it was mandatory retirement at age 56.

Consider it 3 dimensional chess, and the pieces do not stop moving. Then throw in some severe weather, diverting aircraft, and everyone asking for the smooth ride altitude.
 
jaybee said:
I get that and know that, however that does not answer the question ? Is it mandatory by law to retire from ATC if you take a job with them ?

This is a sincere question, how is it not in violation of Age Discrimination laws ? and what if the proposed employee did not care about retiring from ATC ? even the US Air Force now takes up to 39 years old.
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Military also has high year tenure based on rank acquired. Don't make rank and you're out. Time in service above 20 requires higher rank.
 
Something like 22,000 applied to the last bid intent on selecting less that 2,000. Of those 2,000, probably 1,200 will make it through the required screening and training. Doesn't hurt to apply if you think it may be something you're interested in and qualify for.

For the age thing, it has a purpose nobody has touched on. Our schedules suck. Backward rotating weeks that end in leave tonight, come back in 9 hours, leave this morning and come back in 8 hours to work the midnight shift. It takes a massive toll on you physically to the point that I'd doubt many 70 year olds could both retain a medical AND be able to work till midnight or start a shift at 9PM and stay awake.
 
Approach_controller said:
Something like 22,000 applied to the last bid intent on selecting less that 2,000. Of those 2,000, probably 1,200 will make it through the required screening and training. Doesn't hurt to apply if you think it may be something you're interested in and qualify for.

For the age thing, it has a purpose nobody has touched on. Our schedules suck. Backward rotating weeks that end in leave tonight, come back in 9 hours, leave this morning and come back in 8 hours to work the midnight shift. It takes a massive toll on you physically to the point that I'd doubt many 70 year olds could both retain a medical AND be able to work till midnight or start a shift at 9PM and stay awake.
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well,,, i'm currently down range at a jet base, 40 years old, work 12 hours shifts 6 days a week and sleep very little with aforementioned jet base operating all night (tents don't block noise too well),,, i think i could swing it :wink2:

as far as an investment goes you can sign on for 4 years and have the air force train you (and house you and feed you...) so as far as getting their money's worth out of you i don't see how they would have to get 25 years out of you.

doesn't matter i guess, asking questions on a pilot forum isn't going to change anything. just seems silly to me that the average life span has increased almost 10 years since 1972 date that was mentioned earlier

guess ill stick to my 47G3B1 ;)
 
My girlfriend applied for this bid. The selection process seems stupid to me. They are now doing a good bit of off the street hiring. She's gone through our CTI program here. Until last year, the CTI programs gave heavy preference in the selection process, almost to the point of guaranteeing a slot at OKC. But now they receive no preference over someone who's been working at McDonald's who thinks $120k a year sounds good. And they don't even look at resumes until they pick preference on a personality assessment full of inane questions. Seems backwards to me, no wonder the wash out rate is so high. Seems that they should look harder at qualifications than how much of an extrovert someone is. Just my $0.02
 
ATC is a demanding, stressful occupation and over time, can be physically debilitating. It requires a sharp, agile mind that reacts quickly to unexpected changes and one that can quickly arrive at a solution while complying with an extraordinary complex assortment of rules, aircraft operating parameters and operational limitations and constraints within the controller’s assigned airspace.

It is a young man/woman’s’ game. It will wear you down physically and emotionally and 99% of controllers are ready to retire when they reach 56, if not before. Many are forced out before retirement age because they can no longer pass the required annual medical exams.

Not many people can reach a proficient and safe level of work expertise with all of the demands that are made upon controllers. I don’t know what the current success rate of new hires attaining Full Performance Level is, but I will be very surprised if it is much more than 15%.

Education levels, whether degreed or not, do not have a significant impact of success levels. Previous military controller experience has been proven to have a much higher success rate than those candidates from colleges and universities

Practical pre-employment testing can only cull out those who have a low probability of success. The tests cannot even come close to predicting who will succeed!

All that said, I loved the work, but I wasn’t very happy with the FAA. It was challenging and fulfilling and almost every controllers I knew took an extremely high level of pride and satisfaction from being able to say they were a “controller”.
 
dlsmith said:
My girlfriend applied for this bid. The selection process seems stupid to me. They are now doing a good bit of off the street hiring. She's gone through our CTI program here. Until last year, the CTI programs gave heavy preference in the selection process, almost to the point of guaranteeing a slot at OKC. But now they receive no preference over someone who's been working at McDonald's who thinks $120k a year sounds good. And they don't even look at resumes until they pick preference on a personality assessment full of inane questions. Seems backwards to me, no wonder the wash out rate is so high. Seems that they should look harder at qualifications than how much of an extrovert someone is. Just my $0.02
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I'm a Blue Raider and spent a huge chunk of my life in MBT. While I don't disagree with your assessment, I can name many, many CTI's who aged out or scored Q on the ATSAT (which meant a 3 year so sorry we're only hiring WQ, unless you failed the thing then retake ASAP). The entire process is a lottery ticket.

This is nothing new at all. Best I can say is if MT plays a Thursday game this year PM me. Beer and meat on me. If not I'll go two years without seeing a game at JRF and you can feel free to PM me for a facility tour about 4 hours drive out.
 
Approach_controller said:
I'm a Blue Raider and spent a huge chunk of my life in MBT. While I don't disagree with your assessment, I can name many, many CTI's who aged out or scored Q on the ATSAT (which meant a 3 year so sorry we're only hiring WQ, unless you failed the thing then retake ASAP). The entire process is a lottery ticket.

This is nothing new at all. Best I can say is if MT plays a Thursday game this year PM me. Beer and meat on me. If not I'll go two years without seeing a game at JRF and you can feel free to PM me for a facility tour about 4 hours drive out.
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Hey, sounds good! Always good to see another Blue Raider. I'll let you know about games. Although watching football here can hurt a little at times :yikes:

For the last year or so, I've felt sorry for our CTI people that started the program with promises from the FAA that disappeared halfway through. Either way, seems like we have a good introduction to ATC, although being more on the pilot side of things, I wont pretend to know all of the ins and outs.
 
Anyone heard back on their application? Rumours Im hearing are people have been notified if they didn't pass the bio q. However, I haven't received any notification and checked my status and I still have a green check mark. :dunno:

Trying not to get my hopes up.
 
Yes, my son got his "You're not qualified but thanks for applying today." He graduates next month with a four year degree majoring in Air Traffic Control with a 3.6 GPA from one of the top University programs in the country, and never less than a B in any ATC course. Go figure.
 
The green check mark or reviewed status is good. The red exclamation point or X is bad. Granted its just one step of many, but if its all green or reviewed all is well for now.

As a side note, a good friend of mine got the red exclamation this round and will be too old to be hired after this bid after seven years of applications
 
Approach_controller said:
The green check mark or reviewed status is good. The red exclamation point or X is bad. Granted its just one step of many, but if its all green or reviewed all is well for now.

As a side note, a good friend of mine got the red exclamation this round and will be too old to be hired after this bid after seven years of applications
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That's sad.
 
LDJones said:
Yes, my son got his "You're not qualified but thanks for applying today." He graduates next month with a four year degree majoring in Air Traffic Control with a 3.6 GPA from one of the top University programs in the country, and never less than a B in any ATC course. Go figure.
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Of course, the FAA decided they don't like the CTI programs anymore. I know many, many, many CTI grads that can't get passed the first round of questioning for the job.
 
I didn't get selected. It was more of a shot in the dark for me. I was laid off a few months ago and figured what the hay. Somewhat disappointed but I have no problem getting turned away if it means one more CTI student get's in.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Of course, the FAA decided they don't like the CTI programs anymore. I know many, many, many CTI grads that can't get passed the first round of questioning for the job.
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Interesting. Two-thirds of our controllers at FCM came out of UND and they're all terrific controllers.
 
LDJones said:
Interesting. Two-thirds of our controllers at FCM came out of UND and they're all terrific controllers.
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I know many ERAU CTI grad's, most of them aren't doing the ATC thing. Once they changed the scheme last year and no longer gave any credit towards CTI, it's all been a personality test to get in. Most of the ones I know are doing something like ARINC or ATC simulations for things.
 
overdrive148 said:
Do you guys think the personality test is a valid measure of a good controller candidate?
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My neighbor is a center controller, I've asked him about this. His opinion: It's just one part of it. Aptitude is another major part, and he doesn't think that shows up until you get into initial training. The rest of the training puts the two together. Along the way, at each step, you are always being evaluated.

I can see that - the personality test is just a factor. Even if good candidates get weeded out, the volume of candidates still leaves more than enough to choose from.
 
overdrive148 said:
Do you guys think the personality test is a valid measure of a good controller candidate?
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I don't think any pretest can adequately predict who makes the cut in ATC. With a 50 % washout rate at OKC and OJT, you don't really know what you've got in a candidate until they start training.

I think prior experience over some bio or even a skills test should be weighted more. Still, just because somone has gone thru military or CTI doesn't mean they're cut out for the real thing. Where my brother works, he's seen both types not make the cut while one of their best new hires is some guy OTS who used to be a car salesman.

So yeah, I don't think these tests are really that relevant to the job of ATC. Kinda like flight aptitude tests in the military. We all looked at them as a joke. Just another hurtle to overcome.
 
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Velocity173 said:
Still, just because somone has gone thru military or CTI doesn't mean they're cut out for the real thing.
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Was talking to a controller at the NATCA conference who was telling us about a CTI grad who got certified (tracon) and was working traffic on his own for a few months and had his first real near miss/bust (I can't recall what he said, either way he lost separation). Apparently it shook him so badly he quit that week.

Added some perspective for me.
 
overdrive148 said:
What's the reason the fail rate is so high - shoveling in tons of dirt for diamonds in the rough or a difficult program? I'll have my hat in the ring for both the ATC side and the training ATC controllers side :D
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The training is tough. One of my good friends was a controller at my tower for about 8 years before being picked up by a TRACON. She was hired off the street originally, loves her job, and is a great controller. Smart, professional, very sharp, and has a great attitude. When she moved to the TRACON she went back to OKC for 3 months of radar training, and has now been at her location for about 8 months. She's still in training, and only started talking on the actual radio a couple months ago. This is someone who already had 8 years of ATC experience and was very good at the job she had. It hasn't been easy at all.
 
The age requirement is crazy. I know about the mandatory retirement and all that but I was retiring from the Air Force as a controller with a ton of ATC experience. Scored like 105 on the exam (bonus points for veteran) but I was 38 so the only thing I qualified for was FSS, which they offered me a job for. Seems like they'd have a waiver on the age for prior experience. I even worked for the FAA (as a military controller) when Regan fired all the striking controllers at Quonset Point airport. But it all worked out as I got on with an airline which is what I wanted more.
 
mscard88 said:
The age requirement is crazy. I know about the mandatory retirement and all that but I was retiring from the Air Force as a controller with a ton of ATC experience. Scored like 105 on the exam (bonus points for veteran) but I was 38 so the only thing I qualified for was FSS, which they offered me a job for. Seems like they'd have a waiver on the age for prior experience. I even worked for the FAA (as a military controller) when Regan fired all the striking controllers at Quonset Point airport. But it all worked out as I got on with an airline which is what I wanted more.
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They do have an age waiver with prior ATC experience. 35 yrs old for 52 weeks prior ATC.

You probably also retired before the Phoenix 20 or Retired Military Controller program as well. Now, you can retire out of ATC and get hired on with the FAA. You get 5 yr contract extensions all the way up to the 56 yr old retirement age. I think most go with contract tower or DOD though.
 
They're expecting 25,000 applications for ~1400 jobs.....
 
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