ATC Initial Call-Up Reporting

Mooney Fan

Mooney Fan

Cleared for Takeoff
Joined
Sep 17, 2017
Messages
1,039
Location
Indian Mound, TN
Display Name
Display name:
Mooney Fan
For you ATC cats. There are a few of us on the Piper Forum discussing proper reporting on initial call-up to ATC. I initially posed the question if there are any different suffix codes for reporting on initial call-up when the A/C has ADS-B transponder. I was taught back in the mid-90's that when you make first contact with ATC, while VFR, and you want flight following to report I-P-A-D

So my question is- Do you folks at ATC expect when we are VFR, and making first contact, to state under type what our equipment suffix is?

I have always done that where I used to fly in So California but some here in the Tennessee and midwest areas think that is not required.

So I tried it today with Memphis center, did not report suffix, and then they asked for it

What is the standard?

Thanks
 
I think there is a difference between the controlling agency you are talking to. The center in your example (and probably most centers) will type you into the NAS computer and will need you suffix to attach to your type a/c. At a TRACON (take Chicago for example) they 99% of the time just need your callsign, type, location, destination and req altitude. The controller just types into the keyboard in front of them "123fu, space, pa28, enter" to get your code. Then if you are leaving their airspace they will type the 3-letter destination and click on you to add it. We then hand you off to the next sector without ever needing or putting in your equipment suffix.

To answer what is the standard, I'd say there is none. :) Considering some facilities routinely input you into the NAS is doesn't hurt just to say pa28/G or whatever.

Now standby to hear why I'm wrong. ;)
 
I always preferred a wake up first but that’s me. 90 % of the time I could get the entire thing in one call but it’s the other 10 % where I was on the line or someone on another freq blocked the call. Just “Cherokee 12345 VFR request” will work also. That way approach isn’t scanning their IFR departures.

After the wake up, then rattle off your entire request with the equipment suffix with your type aircraft. If I never got an equipment suffix, usually asked or just have the data guy typed in / U if I was busy.
 
Velocity173 said:
I always preferred a wake up first but that’s me. 90 % of the time I could get the entire thing in one call but it’s the other 10 % where I was on the line or someone on another freq blocked the call. Just “Piper 12345 VFR request” will work also. That way approach isn’t scanning their IFR departures.

After the wake up, then rattle off your entire request with the equipment suffix with your type aircraft. If I never got an equipment suffix, usually asked or just have the data guy typed in / U if I was busy.
Click to expand...
Thanks- I gave the wake up, with first TX- Memphis Center, Cherokee 4320J....... and they responded in kind

Then I went into I-P-A-D
 
What, you guys never heard of C-R-A-F-T or G-U-M-P-S either?

What are they teaching these days? lol
 
Radar Contact said:
I think there is a difference between the controlling agency you are talking to. The center in your example (and probably most centers) will type you into the NAS computer and will need you suffix to attach to your type a/c. At a TRACON (take Chicago for example) they 99% of the time just need your callsign, type, location, destination and req altitude. The controller just types into the keyboard in front of them "123fu, space, pa28, enter" to get your code. Then if you are leaving their airspace they will type the 3-letter destination and click on you to add it. We then hand you off to the next sector without ever needing or putting in your equipment suffix.

To answer what is the standard, I'd say there is none. :) Considering some facilities routinely input you into the NAS is doesn't hurt just to say pa28/G or whatever.

Now standby to hear why I'm wrong. ;)
Click to expand...

You are wrong. 123fu is an SR22. What you say is the way it was many moons ago when I was working and sure seems to have not changed. I've worked both Center and Approach at TRACONS and RATCFS with ARTS II and III and TPX42. I doubt if RAPCONS are any different. My recommendation to anyone asking this is just give the damn suffix code. It's two syllables, 'slant golf.' Well, four if your a U. Ain't takin up anyones valuable time and then they never have to ask if they want it which does create a whole new transmission sometimes.
 
Mooney Fan said:
Thanks- I gave the wake up, with first TX- Memphis Center, Cherokee 4320J....... and they responded in kind

Then I went into I-P-A-D
Click to expand...

And they didn’t want to know what aircraft you were in?

Just give them who you are, where your are (position and alt) what aircraft your are flying, what you want.
 
Clip4 said:
And they didn’t want to know what aircraft you were in?

Just give them who you are, where your are (position and alt) what aircraft your are flying, what you want.
Click to expand...

But they wanted more. They wanted to know our equipment suffix, which is the question being posed in this thread.
 
maybe it is just me the the "Wake Up" call generally seem to be a waste of time to me.
I tell my students ATC does this everyday, they generally have a pretty good idea what you are going to say before you say it so give them some information. On the other hand keep it brief just in case it does turn into a wake up call.

Since we always start the transmission the same "xyz approach, skyhawk 123" then some options for the rest of the call are...
"request" , best only used when going to ask something unusual or long.
" 20 West Inbound"
"Off skypark transitioning west bound"
"10 west inbound touch and goes"

adding just a few words turns what would be three transmissions into 1 transmission, if ATC does say "Say again", very little is lost.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I HATE acronyms. There are a thousand of them and apparently I am required to know them all.
Click to expand...

Ground school photo from a CFI in parts unknown that made me laugh. I may use it.

9e9bf580c7da43ba2aab6300fa8cc4cc.jpg
 
brcase said:
maybe it is just me the the "Wake Up" call generally seem to be a waste of time to me.
I tell my students ATC does this everyday, they generally have a pretty good idea what you are going to say before you say it so give them some information. On the other hand keep it brief just in case it does turn into a wake up call.

Since we always start the transmission the same "xyz approach, skyhawk 123" then some options for the rest of the call are...
"request" , best only used when going to ask something unusual or long.
" 20 West Inbound"
"Off skypark transitioning west bound"
"10 west inbound touch and goes"

adding just a few words turns what would be three transmissions into 1 transmission, if ATC does say "Say again", very little is lost.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
Click to expand...

Why am I thinking a wake up call would really be a wake up call in Boise.
 
At towered airports in Southern and Northern California, you generally can make your FF request there, with ground - and it saves blocking up an approach frequency. The major exceptions with busy GA traffic are CMA and OXR, which don't have the ability to create codes and are under Mugu Approach. With them, it is best to just say your call sign or call sign + "VFR Request." If you IPAD them on cold call, they will chop your head off - and I kind of don't blame them for it, they are busy. Of course, non-towered airports (or something like the LAX SFRA) mean you need to make the call in the air and doing the short call first allows the controller to get set up before you blast them with information.

There was a controller on here who said they need an equipment suffix to pop out a code, though they just put /U for those that don't say it, so I'd imagine it is just easier if you help give them the code. Also, when under positive control in Class B or C, you can help them out and proceed to a GPS waypoint.
 
N1120A said:
..............................................
There was a controller on here who said they need an equipment suffix to pop out a code, though they just put /U for those that don't say it, so I'd imagine it is just easier if you help give them the code. Also, when under positive control in Class B or C, you can help them out and proceed to a GPS waypoint.
Click to expand...

..........also, when under positive control in Class B or C, you can help them out and proceed to a GPS waypoint.

Yup. Just give the damn suffix code. Pretend you own, or are renting, or are borrowing, or have just stolen/hijacked, a whatever slant whatever
 
N1120A said:
The major exceptions with busy GA traffic are CMA and OXR, which don't have the ability to create codes and are under Mugu Approach. With them, it is best to just say your call sign or call sign + "VFR Request." If you IPAD them on cold call, they will chop your head off - and I kind of don't blame them for it, they are busy.
Click to expand...

“Not blaming them” may be unfounded. I’d pull up the database and see where they rank in number of operations before letting them off the hook so easily. As I recall, but I don’t look at California data much, those two airports aren’t exactly high in the rankings lists. But the data is easy and free to look up if you care to.

If I found they were “chopping heads off” with low number of operations rankings, I’d be having a chat with their Tower Chief about their professionalism or lack thereof and asking what the problem was.

My own home airport has held on to rankings in the top ten GA airports in the country without chopping any heads for any particular form of call up, ever. Any place that can’t keep up with the top ranked places needs to look at their airspace and workloads more closely and fix it.

Anyway point being, never assume they’re too busy without looking up the actual numbers. SOME towers and facilities need a square kick in the butt via a phone call if they’re being on-air jerks. And having the knowledge of the real numbers handy and a reasonable demeanor can work wonders.
 
denverpilot said:
“Not blaming them” may be unfounded. I’d pull up the database and see where they rank in number of operations before letting them off the hook so easily. As I recall, but I don’t look at California data much, those two airports aren’t exactly high in the rankings lists. But the data is easy and free to look up if you care to.

If I found they were “chopping heads off” with low number of operations rankings, I’d be having a chat with their Tower Chief about their professionalism or lack thereof and asking what the problem was.

My own home airport has held on to rankings in the top ten GA airports in the country without chopping any heads for any particular form of call up, ever. Any place that can’t keep up with the top ranked places needs to look at their airspace and workloads more closely and fix it.

Anyway point being, never assume they’re too busy without looking up the actual numbers. SOME towers and facilities need a square kick in the butt via a phone call if they’re being on-air jerks. And having the knowledge of the real numbers handy and a reasonable demeanor can work wonders.
Click to expand...

1) Considering the various airspace concerns and cyclical traffic, especially at CMA, workloads can be pretty significant. They get so busy that they close the airspace to incoming traffic at times. Lots of training, aerobatics, VFR targets and the like also create issues.

2) Part of the issue is that the approach control is handled by a DOD facility with one controller working the airspace at a time (unless they are training someone, then a certified controller is plugged in). Different attitudes, different training philosophies, etc. The reality is that it would be better if the FAA paid up for some more controller positions at Santa Barbara or SoCal, and took over the airspace, but that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

3) I agree that being rude is not only unprofessional, but can be unsafe, and there have been productive discussions on that, but lengthy cold calls are also pretty bad from a safety perspective.
 
denverpilot said:
“Not blaming them” may be unfounded. I’d pull up the database and see where they rank in number of operations before letting them off the hook so easily. As I recall, but I don’t look at California data much, those two airports aren’t exactly high in the rankings lists. But the data is easy and free to look up if you care to.

If I found they were “chopping heads off” with low number of operations rankings, I’d be having a chat with their Tower Chief about their professionalism or lack thereof and asking what the problem was.

My own home airport has held on to rankings in the top ten GA airports in the country without chopping any heads for any particular form of call up, ever. Any place that can’t keep up with the top ranked places needs to look at their airspace and workloads more closely and fix it.

Anyway point being, never assume they’re too busy without looking up the actual numbers. SOME towers and facilities need a square kick in the butt via a phone call if they’re being on-air jerks. And having the knowledge of the real numbers handy and a reasonable demeanor can work wonders.
Click to expand...

I lived in Oxnard for 39 years and flew out of there very often. The tower there is more than friendly. I rented out of SZP but flew over to OXN. Just report who you are, where you are ( I used to call in over Saticoy Bridge) and tell them you have Papa, or whatever ATIS is, and they would kindly tell you to report financial plaza which is an extended right base for RWY 25. Heck, they would let me circle my house which was under the right downwind for 25.
 
Mooney Fan said:
I lived in Oxnard for 39 years and flew out of there very often. The tower there is more than friendly. I rented out of SZP but flew over to OXN. Just report who you are, where you are ( I used to call in over Saticoy Bridge) and tell them you have Papa, or whatever ATIS is, and they would kindly tell you to report financial plaza which is an extended right base for RWY 25. Heck, they would let me circle my house which was under the right downwind for 25.
Click to expand...

Oh, the controllers at OXR are great. They aren't nearly as busy as CMA and seem to mostly be retired FAA and former PATCO people, as OXR is a FCT. Most of their traffic is one or two smart students from CMA doing T&Gs on the mostly empty runway and practice ILS traffic. They are more than happy to accommodate things like practice engine outs and the like, cause they just aren't very busy. When they do get 2-3 people in the pattern, they seem to get really excited.
 
denverpilot said:
“Not blaming them” may be unfounded. I’d pull up the database and see where they rank in number of operations before letting them off the hook so easily. As I recall, but I don’t look at California data much, those two airports aren’t exactly high in the rankings lists. But the data is easy and free to look up if you care to.

If I found they were “chopping heads off” with low number of operations rankings, I’d be having a chat with their Tower Chief about their professionalism or lack thereof and asking what the problem was.

My own home airport has held on to rankings in the top ten GA airports in the country without chopping any heads for any particular form of call up, ever. Any place that can’t keep up with the top ranked places needs to look at their airspace and workloads more closely and fix it.

Anyway point being, never assume they’re too busy without looking up the actual numbers. SOME towers and facilities need a square kick in the butt via a phone call if they’re being on-air jerks. And having the knowledge of the real numbers handy and a reasonable demeanor can work wonders.
Click to expand...

Traffic at NTD, OXR and CMA is just a piece of Mugu’s traffic. They are an integral part of the Southern California traffic system, lots of over flights they are threading arrivals and departures into and through. That being said the ‘culture’ there has never been ATC’s poster child for ‘can’t we all just get along.’ I don’t think it’s all that bad nowadays, but I have gotten a little attitude every now and then in recent years flying through their sky. Not all the time, but every now and then. I’ve worked with them a lot as a controller at SBA, BUR and LA Center and have worked with a few ex Mugu controllers. They tell the story of Murray the Mauler. Murray made ‘sport’ of reading the riot act to pilots over little sheet. Other controllers would make ‘sport’ of setting Murray off. ‘That guy is sassing you Murray’ and off he’d go. Every ATC facility has it’s ‘culture, tribal knowledge’ or whatever you call it.
 
Last edited:
N1120A said:
Oh, the controllers at OXR are great. They aren't nearly as busy as CMA and seem to mostly be retired FAA and former PATCO people, as OXR is a FCT. Most of their traffic is one or two smart students from CMA doing T&Gs on the mostly empty runway and practice ILS traffic. They are more than happy to accommodate things like practice engine outs and the like, cause they just aren't very busy. When they do get 2-3 people in the pattern, they seem to get really excited.
Click to expand...

The FAA put a Tower at OXR around 1964 or so I think. Probably because there was Scheduled service into there or maybe the Congressman from that district had some ‘pull.’ Who knows? Anyway, when they did, many pilots took their planes and moved them to CMA. They didn’t want to have to buy radios and/or deal with the ‘Tower.’ CMA became the busier airport in a short time. They eventually had to open a Tower there. So the story goes. It passes the logic check and I believe it.
 
Last edited:
Velocity173 said:
Cherokee 12345 VFR request
Click to expand...

Clip4 said:
Just give them who you are, where your are (position and alt) what aircraft your are flying, what you want.
Click to expand...

Around here where the air space can get pretty busy, I was taught to generally start off with the wake up call "Skyhawk 734NK VFR request"... However, if the frequency is not that busy then it is fine to just call up and state your whole request. So a little bit of a judgement call needed. We had some controllers at our last quarterly dinner and we asked a question about this and they pretty much said it that if they sound super busy to used to wake up call first to not tie up the frequency, otherwise if it's relatively quiet to just state the whole request so they're not calling you back asking you what you want
 
N1120A said:
1) Considering the various airspace concerns and cyclical traffic, especially at CMA, workloads can be pretty significant. They get so busy that they close the airspace to incoming traffic at times. Lots of training, aerobatics, VFR targets and the like also create issues.

2) Part of the issue is that the approach control is handled by a DOD facility with one controller working the airspace at a time (unless they are training someone, then a certified controller is plugged in). Different attitudes, different training philosophies, etc. The reality is that it would be better if the FAA paid up for some more controller positions at Santa Barbara or SoCal, and took over the airspace, but that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

3) I agree that being rude is not only unprofessional, but can be unsafe, and there have been productive discussions on that, but lengthy cold calls are also pretty bad from a safety perspective.
Click to expand...

Mugu is a two sector facility. Pretty much high and low, 128.65 and 124.7. There has been a lot of talk over the years about Mugu and what to do with it. Microwave the Radar over to Santa Barbara and let them ‘absorb’ it. There was all kinds of talk about should it be ‘absorbed’ into Socal Approach when that was being created. For whatever reasons the Mugu RATCF and ‘Mugu Approach’ still exists. The Navy still runs it. The ‘core’ of the Controllers are Civilian employees. You may be chatting with a Sailor though.
 
Last edited:
steingar said:
Who you are, where you are, what you want.
Click to expand...

Clarification point...what you want "if it is short"

4-2-3. Contact Procedures
a. Initial Contact.
1. The terms initial contact or initial callup means the first radio call you make to a given facility or the first call to a different controller or FSS specialist within a facility. Use the following format:

(a) Name of the facility being called;

(b) Your full aircraft identification as filed in the flight plan or as discussed in paragraph 4-2-4, Aircraft Call Signs;

(c) When operating on an airport surface, state your position.

(d) The type of message to follow or your request if it is short

"VFR Request", "Flight Following Request" "Flight Following to XYZ" THEN wait for response for subsequent information...totally appropriate. Rambling off your entire route, life story, and underwear preferences on initial callup, not appropriate.


 
Mooney Fan said:
What, you guys never heard of C-R-A-F-T or G-U-M-P-S either?

What are they teaching these days? lol
Click to expand...
They used to teach the 4 Ws.
I guess it's easier nowadays with iPads. Every student's got one.
Imagine the initial call-up:
"Podunk tower, Bugsmasher 1234 with an iPad".
And I bet the frequency would liven up some with check-ins:
"Podunk tower, Citation 5BX over FAF, we have 2 iPads onboard".
:D
 
This weekend my next transmission after the initial call up and cleared to land was, “Hey we were on a code coming up from Trinidad... if we’re going to do some pattern would would you prefer 1200?”

“Yeah, that’s be great! Squawk VFR.”

Controller liked me after that. Even moved me to the other runway for the full stop so I had a shorter taxi to the hangar. :)

Knowing what’s going on on both sides of the radio and workin’ as a team always works better than anything... I’ve noticed.

Go figure. :)
 
I’m late to the party, but I never give ATC my suffix unless they request it—and they never do. Different circumstances may require it, but for 99% of VFR ops it’s not necessary.

Make the first call to ATC a ‘cold call’ to get their attention and then make your request. Easy peazy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top