ATC / FF drama .. new pilot blues.

markab

markab

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Clearwater, FL
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markab
I'm hoping someone might be able to give me some insight on what I did wrong during this last flight i did.

I had a flight that I did from my home airport to an executive airport on the other side of tampa. In getting my clearance I requested flight following from KPIE to KVDF which is through Tampa International Bravo airspace.

KPIE had cleared me into the Bravo with my squack code, a frequency for tampa approach and a heading and altitude.

After clearing the Class D , I cleared by PIE tower to change frequency.

Upon changing frequency, I called "Tampa Approach, at 1200 feet for 1600 feet Cessna N12345"

Approach responded: "Cessna N12345, please repeat last transmission with your full call sign". (Did I leave out Cessna, i don't remember) .. at this point i'm starting to get VERY embarrassed and flustered because i don't know what I 'm doing wrong.

At this point I was confused, and responded with the same thing but just "Tampa Approach, N12345" , this repeated 2 times.

After that I went on to say that I was handed over to them from PIE with clearance into the bravo and with heading 270 for 1600.

At this point I became a bit flustered, being a VERY low hour pilot and not a lot of experience in Flight Following, I wasn't sure what I did wrong.

Approach assigned me heading 030 for 2500 which I told them I was unable because of rain and IMC ahead of me, he then assigned me 2100 which was also 100' into the clouds, I ended up having to hang at 1800' to stay what I felt was a safe distance before he cleared me to the director course to KVDF.

Long story short I think i was confused when i was handed over to the new frequency and it was like he didn't know who I was. I'm reading online trying to understand the procedures for handoff from a controlled field to approach and I understand the phraseology to be:

"Tampa Approach, Cessna 12345 <current altitude> <assigned altitude>"

his response to me was almost like he didn't know who i was or why i was calling him. Can someone please give me some constructive criticism on what the heck I did wrong and how I should of handled this? The remaining leg of that very short flight left me discouraged and feeling embarrassed and incompetent. I've picked up the book "Say Again Please" by Bob Gardner and am reading through it trying to learn from this, but maybe someone can give me some tips and encouragement for dealing with what feels like a completely botched radio call on a very busy approach frequency.

Should I have canceled flight following, flew out a ways and regrouped?

I certainly didn't want to take precious airway time arguing with someone at approach when I'm pretty sure he was in the right, and me in the wrong.

Of all the things I'm doing in flying, it feels like the Radio work is the most discouraging. I'll continue to do it, I know at some point it will click and I will NOT avoid flight following because I occasionally feel embarrassed, I just want to learn from this so I don't make the same mistakes again.


Thanks in advance for the feedback!
 
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Ummmmm what?

Ok, so you got flight following from KPIE to KVDF.

KPIE gave you a clearance into class bravo?

Wait, you busted the Bravo?

By the sound of it they had no clue who on earth you are and why you are there but you had a squawk code so that must have confused them.

Can you please elaborate on how you got into the Bravo?

Edit: Are you a student?
 
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You come across totally frazzled by your experience... First of all... don't be... sometimes you learn from hard knocks... you were cleared into Bravo? You heard those words? You are okay... as for the rest of it, it sounds like 1 of 2 things... if you simply said Tampa Approach, at 1200 feet for 1600 feet N12345, that may have been a bit confusing to the controller... more correctly would be...Tampa Approach Cessna N12345 with you at 1200 climbing to 1600... wait for a response. The other possibility is either the tower did not pass your presence to Tampa Approach before you called them... Or your abbreviated call was not enough for him to realize you were the aircraft passed on by the tower...
 
FlySince9 said:
You come across totally frazzled by your experience... First of all... don't be... sometimes you learn from hard knocks... you were cleared into Bravo? You heard those words? You are okay... as for the rest of it, it sounds like 1 of 2 things... if you simply said Tampa Approach, at 1200 feet for 1600 feet N12345, that may have been a bit confusing to the controller... more correctly would be...Tampa Approach Cessna N12345 with you at 1200 climbing to 1600... wait for a response. The other possibility is either the tower did not pass your presence to Tampa Approach before you called them... Or your abbreviated call was not enough for him to realize you were the aircraft passed on by the tower...
Click to expand...
:yeahthat: +1
 
Did anyone tell you "radar contact" at any point? Is it possible you put in a wrong squawk code by accident?
 
The controller may have either forgotten you were coming or the previous controller may have been late getting the info to him, or he may have been on the land line when you first called, or he may have been working other frequencies as well and just thought he missed your full call sign.

If the frequency is really busy and you feel a little flustered, try adding "student pilot" in your radio call. I know you are not a student pilot but that should signal the controller that you may need a little extra help on the radio.

Experience will build confidence. We have all been there, done that, so don't beat your self up too much.
 
markab said:
I'm hoping someone might be able to give me some insight on what I did wrong during this last flight i did.

I had a flight that I did from my home airport to an executive airport on the other side of tampa. In getting my clearance I requested flight following from KPIE to KVDF which is through Tampa International Bravo airspace.

KPIE had cleared me into the Bravo with my squack code, a frequency for tampa approach and a heading and altitude.

After clearing the Class D , I cleared by PIE tower to change frequency.

Upon changing frequency, I called "Tampa Approach, at 1200 feet for 1600 feet Cessna N12345"

Approach responded: "Cessna N12345, please repeat last transmission with your full call sign". (Did I leave out Cessna, i don't remember) .. at this point i'm starting to get VERY embarrassed and flustered because i don't know what I 'm doing wrong.

At this point I was confused, and responded with the same thing but just "Tampa Approach, N12345" , this repeated 2 times.

After that I went on to say that I was handed over to them from PIE with clearance into the bravo and with heading 270 for 1600.

At this point I became a bit flustered, being a VERY low hour pilot and not a lot of experience in Flight Following, I wasn't sure what I did wrong.

Approach assigned me heading 030 for 2500 which I told them I was unable because of rain and IMC ahead of me, he then assigned me 2100 which was also 100' into the clouds, I ended up having to hang at 1800' to stay what I felt was a safe distance before he cleared me to the director course to KVDF.

Long story short I think i was confused when i was handed over to the new frequency and it was like he didn't know who I was. I'm reading online trying to understand the procedures for handoff from a controlled field to approach and I understand the phraseology to be:

"Tampa Approach, Cessna 12345 <current altitude> <assigned altitude>"

his response to me was almost like he didn't know who i was or why i was calling him. Can someone please give me some constructive criticism on what the heck I did wrong and how I should of handled this? The remaining leg of that very short flight left me discouraged and feeling embarrassed and incompetent. I've picked up the book "Say Again Please" by Bob Gardner and am reading through it trying to learn from this, but maybe someone can give me some tips and encouragement for dealing with what feels like a completely botched radio call on a very busy approach frequency.

Should I have canceled flight following, flew out a ways and regrouped?

I certainly didn't want to take precious airway time arguing with someone at approach when I'm pretty sure he was in the right, and me in the wrong.

Of all the things I'm doing in flying, it feels like the Radio work is the most discouraging. I'll continue to do it, I know at some point it will click and I will NOT avoid flight following because I occasionally feel embarrassed, I just want to learn from this so I don't make the same mistakes again.


Thanks in advance for the feedback!
Click to expand...

I hope that you did not ask PIE for permission to change frequencies leaving their airspace because that is not required (AIM 4-3-2). If they took it upon themselves to instruct you to change frequencies, that is where you jump in and say "I'm on flight following, squawking xxxx" which should alert them to the fact that you need a handoff to Tampa Approach. Be proactive...as you approach the boundary of the Class D, say "Buzzbomb 1234X is switching to Approach." That should tell the PIE controller to get on the interphone with Tampa Approach to tell them that you are coming.

Without such action, to the Tampa Approach controller you are a total stranger. "Tampa Approach, Buzzbomb 1234X request flight following, squawking xxxx." You should be on their scope.

I welcome comments from controllers on this.

Bob Gardner
 
To clarify:

I was cleared into Bravo by Ground/Clearance (same at PIE) with a transponder, heading and frequency. I hadn't busted into bravo. I stayed under the shelf, not by design but just by the heading I was assigned with my clearance and the performance of the plane. 3k would of been Bravo shelf where I was at at that time.

The other problem is, as with any historical recount of radio mistakes, i'm trying to go by memory of what I said when I had was very nervous to begin with. No doubt I'm leaving out a very important detail that might make it difficult to get a definitive answer on this.

But yes, I did hear the magic words "You are cleared into Bravo". The approach did have my Ident after the initial exchange. I made a mistake on my readback when he gave me 030 , I read back 300 which he then go angry and said (non-standard) "0-Thirty heading", which was pointing me into IMC which was getting my frazzled.

What makes me nervous is there was a chain of events occurring in that very short and what should of been enjoyable flight that clearly had me reacting and behind the airplane.

I think i'm going to spend a few sessions with my instructor just going over radio phraseology and procedures. i've got Bob Gardners book and I also just ordered Radio Mastery for VFR Pilots: Everything you need to know to talk to Air Traffic Control. the hard part about the radio, it's hard to rpatice it without going out and actually doing it. I feel like I can do better than that, or there has to be a better way to come to grips with this mic-fright.

http://www.amazon.com/Radio-Mastery...UTF8&qid=1447270725&sr=8-2&keywords=vfr+radio



Thanks again for the feedback.
 
bobmrg said:
I hope that you did not ask PIE for permission to change frequencies leaving their airspace because that is not required (AIM 4-3-2). If they took it upon themselves to instruct you to change frequencies, that is where you jump in and say "I'm on flight following, squawking xxxx" which should alert them to the fact that you need a handoff to Tampa Approach. Be proactive...as you approach the boundary of the Class D, say "Buzzbomb 1234X is switching to Approach." That should tell the PIE controller to get on the interphone with Tampa Approach to tell them that you are coming.

Without such action, to the Tampa Approach controller you are a total stranger. "Tampa Approach, Buzzbomb 1234X request flight following, squawking xxxx." You should be on their scope.

I welcome comments from controllers on this.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...


Bob, I think that's exactly what happened. i felt like a stranger! this had happened to me on a flight flying through JAX and when the person asked for my plane and model, I replied "I was handed over from Lafayette (or savana, forgot..) the lady very cheerily said, oh yes.. I apologize and I see you. maintain course, altimeter 30.00. etc. The few times that PIE has cleared me into Flight Following, i've not had this happen before and it seemed to have gone a lot smoother.

Either way I'll use this as a chance and motivator to further tighten up my radio discipline and try not to make the same mistakes again.

thanks guys : )
 
www.liveatc.net has audio archives of ATC communications. You might be able to listen to your exchange. Reviewing it might be helpful.
 
Mark, the Bravo shelf from KPIE to KVDF is at 1200, not 3000. However, again, as long as you got the magic words "cleared into bravo" and a vector you're fine.

I fly in that area quite a bit and the Tampa Bravo has many weird areas. Assuming you flew direct from KPIE to KVDF you'd be in the bravo the whole way (taking into account your 3000 altitude). The bravo over KPIE is 1200, Tampa airport is sfc - 10000 and VDF is 3000 to 10000. You didn't get a phone number to call so hopefully that was a non-issue.

My first check-in is always like the others, "Bugsmasher XXX checking in 1000 climbing 1600", stop after that. Using the words "with you" is annoying to me..it's redundant and I wince every..single..time..I hear it.
 
FlySince9 said:
Tampa Approach Cessna N12345 with you at 1200 climbing to 1600... wait for a response.
Click to expand...

Tampa Approach Cessna 12345 1200 CLIMBING TO 1600.

With you and checking in is entirely spurious.
 
The radio can definitely throw a wrench into your flow. I was on my 2nd solo today, in the pattern, everything going fine then for some reason, tower cleared me for the option, I got abeam the numbers pull power back and they call me with 'cessna xyz, say intentions', i say, uh er, um, downwind, left base for ... they clear me again, my speeds are all over the place, i get my groove back, speeds square up my pattern etc. I was surprised by how much a hiccup in the radio conversation affected my pattern/setup. I think the voice may have even changed, they might have swapped controllers and were catching up.

Another thing, you say the controller gets angry, that is likely just your perception. They probably are not angry, just because they have to repeat something, you're probably reading that into the situation. They can drop the ball too, so don't assume its always something you did wrong.
 
Caramon13 said:
My first check-in is always like the others, "Bugsmasher XXX checking in 1000 climbing 1600", stop after that. Using the words "with you" is annoying to me..it's redundant and I wince every..single..time..I hear it.
Click to expand...

"Checking in" is no different than "with you" . If you remove the "checking in" from your radio call then you have the perfect check in without having to even say "checking in"
 
Sounds like ATC dropped the ball to me.

Don't blame yourself...
 
NJP_MAN said:
"Checking in" is no different than "with you" . If you remove the "checking in" from your radio call then you have the perfect check in without having to even say "checking in"
Click to expand...

I disagree, I think "with you" is like walking up to someone and saying "with you". It's implied and redundant.

Saying "checking in" implies an action that you are doing, not WHERE you are (figuratively speaking of course).

But, I do agree, losing both of them constitutes a better call overall. I've done that a few times, but I seem to always fall back to "checking in".
 
Clark1961 said:
the use of to and for is discouraged and there is no need to shout with a noise canceling mic.
Click to expand...

I am giving the recommended FAA procedure from the AIM. I agree with you that to/for is problematic but there is no official discouragement.
 
flyingron said:
I am giving the recommended FAA procedure from the AIM. I agree with you that to/for is problematic but there is no official discouragement.
Click to expand...

better get a newer copy of the AIM
 
Caramon13 said:
I disagree, I think "with you" is like walking up to someone and saying "with you". It's implied and redundant.

Saying "checking in" implies an action that you are doing, not WHERE you are (figuratively speaking of course).

But, I do agree, losing both of them constitutes a better call overall. I've done that a few times, but I seem to always fall back to "checking in".
Click to expand...
:confused: approach already you're "checking in" because you are talking to them. It's no different then saying with you.
 
In my opinion there no reason to personalize communications that don’t go as you expected markab.
I enjoy it when things go well and work through it when things aren’t going how I would like.
You are making the effort to get better and there is a lot of information about that here.
In my experience most controllers just want to get you through their airspace without any problems.
It is not a test.
It is good that you said “unable” and didn’t fly into a cloud.
It is my observation that many pilots don’t give good radio and I admire the patience of ATC.
It is the controller’s job to make it work and it is nice if you help him.
Practice and taking the emotion out of it are two ways you can get better.
 
Caramon13 said:
I disagree, I think "with you" is like walking up to someone and saying "with you". It's implied and redundant.
Click to expand...

We've been here before. Technically by .65, "with you" is an incorrect way of saying "with uniform". You do have a 1 in 26 chance that the correct ATIS letter is actually U though. N12345 1200 climbing 1600 is adequate.

Mark, I'll second the idea to go to liveatc and review the recording. I think Bob might have it best in that if the class-D didn't realize you were on FF (and there's no reason they would if you didn't tell them), then they didn't know to do a handoff. But please don't post links to it here, these guys will nitpick every little phrase and struggle that you had.

Just keep after the radio learning and you'll get it down. No worries, you didn't break any rules, you didn't bend any metal and you learned something. Sounds like you had a great flight!
 
Clark1961 said:
better get a newer copy of the AIM
Click to expand...

I'm looking at the current one.

(a) When operating in a radar environment:
On initial contact, the pilot should inform the
controller of the aircraft’s assigned altitude preceded
by the words “level,” or “climbing to,” or
“descending to,” as appropriate; and the aircraft’s
present vacating altitude, if applicable.
EXAMPLE−
1. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEVEL
(altitude or flight level).
2. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEAVING
(exact altitude or flight level), CLIMBING TO OR
DESCENDING TO (altitude of flight level).​

Do you actually read the AIM or do you just spout off what you think is in it?
 
MAKG1 said:
No "to" should be used unless your Cessna can make it to 21,600 and you have an IFR clearance and oxygen.
Click to expand...

The FAA says otherwise. Interpreting it as "CLIMBING TWO ONE THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED" makes no sense whatsoever.
 
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flyingron said:
Do you actually read the AIM or do you just spout off what you think is in it?
Click to expand...

Oh I'll find the reference in time. Perhaps it's elsewhere in the AIM. Perhaps it's from a different source.
 
Tampa approach controls all of the class bravo clearance requests. I fly the Tampa area continuously . The controllers are very helpfull , all airports in the area have assigned headings and altitudes,for the handoff to Tampa. If you fly in the Tampa area regularly,you'll get better.
 
Clark1961 said:
Oh I'll find the reference in time. Perhaps it's elsewhere in the AIM. Perhaps it's from a different source.
Click to expand...

It's not anywhere in the AIM or the ATC handbook. Whatever other source you're imagining, can't have any official priority. CLIMB TO is just one of a few places the preposition TO is in the standard phraseology when followed by figures (what the FAA calls numbers). REDUCE SPEED TO is another place.
 
markab said:
To clarify:

I was cleared into Bravo by Ground/Clearance (same at PIE) with a transponder, heading and frequency. I hadn't busted into bravo. I stayed under the shelf, not by design but just by the heading I was assigned with my clearance and the performance of the plane. 3k would of been Bravo shelf where I was at at that time.

The other problem is, as with any historical recount of radio mistakes, i'm trying to go by memory of what I said when I had was very nervous to begin with. No doubt I'm leaving out a very important detail that might make it difficult to get a definitive answer on this.

But yes, I did hear the magic words "You are cleared into Bravo". The approach did have my Ident after the initial exchange. I made a mistake on my readback when he gave me 030 , I read back 300 which he then go angry and said (non-standard) "0-Thirty heading", which was pointing me into IMC which was getting my frazzled.

What makes me nervous is there was a chain of events occurring in that very short and what should of been enjoyable flight that clearly had me reacting and behind the airplane.

I think i'm going to spend a few sessions with my instructor just going over radio phraseology and procedures. i've got Bob Gardners book and I also just ordered Radio Mastery for VFR Pilots: Everything you need to know to talk to Air Traffic Control. the hard part about the radio, it's hard to rpatice it without going out and actually doing it. I feel like I can do better than that, or there has to be a better way to come to grips with this mic-fright.

http://www.amazon.com/Radio-Mastery...UTF8&qid=1447270725&sr=8-2&keywords=vfr+radio



Thanks again for the feedback.
Click to expand...


So,


No one got hurt
No metal got bent
You were cleared and no one gave you a phone number to copy

You're fine, carry on.

Won't be the last time there is a communications F' up.
 
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