ATC Asking Me to Report Traffic in IMC?

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PilotChase

Filing Flight Plan
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I was flying some practice approaches today. Filed IFR because ceilings at about 700 feet. On the way down ATC gave a traffic pointout and asked me to report in sight. I said "Approach, Archer 123AB is in IMC". ATC acknowledged but a minute or so later he did the same thing with another aircraft and I replied again that I was in IMC. Is this normal, or is there a better way that I should have explained my situation that would have made it more clear that I couldn't separate myself from other traffic?
 
PilotChase said:
I was flying some practice approaches today. Filed IFR because ceilings at about 700 feet. On the way down ATC gave a traffic pointout and asked me to report in sight. I said "Approach, Archer 123AB is in IMC". ATC acknowledged but a minute or so later he did the same thing with another aircraft and I replied again that I was in IMC. Is this normal, or is there a better way that I should have explained my situation that would have made it more clear that I couldn't separate myself from other traffic?
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Its not uncommon, if the IMC is fairly localized. There may be a VFR airplane flying nearby. ATC can see rain, but not IMC.
 
They don't see what you see. It's really that simple.

"When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft."​

That's the rule, word for word. How does ATC know you are not in a slight break in the clouds? They don't. Heck, I surprised an approach control more than once by declining a visual approach because they had no idea there was a ceiling at my destination.
 
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PilotChase said:
I was flying some practice approaches today. Filed IFR because ceilings at about 700 feet. On the way down ATC gave a traffic pointout and asked me to report in sight. I said "Approach, Archer 123AB is in IMC". ATC acknowledged but a minute or so later he did the same thing with another aircraft and I replied again that I was in IMC. Is this normal, or is there a better way that I should have explained my situation that would have made it more clear that I couldn't separate myself from other traffic?
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I'm always surprised how often this happens, admittedly they are sitting in a building with no idea of your flight conditions but decently often I have to tell them I am IMC

midwestpa24 said:
Nothing like them pointing a VFR target at your altitude when you are solid IMC and there is no way anyone is VMC near you.
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Same altitude, 1 o'clock opposite direction, not talking to him..
 
Normal ops.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 
PilotChase said:
I was flying some practice approaches today. Filed IFR because ceilings at about 700 feet. On the way down ATC gave a traffic pointout and asked me to report in sight. I said "Approach, Archer 123AB is in IMC". ATC acknowledged but a minute or so later he did the same thing with another aircraft and I replied again that I was in IMC. Is this normal, or is there a better way that I should have explained my situation that would have made it more clear that I couldn't separate myself from other traffic?
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Nope. Just saying you’re IMC is fine. Still IMC would be fine on the second one. They can’t look out your window and see that you are. Calling the traffic is normal and requesting an in sight report is. They will be separating you until you do, instruct you to maintain visual separation and you accept it. If ya wanna sound Kool, say Popeye instead of IMC
 
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They have no idea if you’re IMC or not. Their order doesn’t say “issue traffic only if you believe the aircraft is VMC.” Second, unless they told you the other aircraft is VFR, that traffic call isn’t necessarily a VFR aircraft. Could be trying to get visual with another IFR aircraft so they he can use visual sep. Sometimes with merging target procedures you’ll get a traffic call even if standard separation is maintained.
 
luvflyin said:
Nope. Just saying you’re IMC is fine. Still IMC would be fine on the second one. They can’t look out your window and see that you are. Calling the traffic is normal and requesting an in sight report is. They will be separating you until you do and then they may instruct you to maintain visual separation. If ya wanna sound Kool, say Popeye instead of IMC
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“Popeye.” I can remember the first time I heard that on position. I looked up at my monitor like WTH does that mean? :D
 
PilotChase said:
I was flying some practice approaches today. Filed IFR because ceilings at about 700 feet. On the way down ATC gave a traffic pointout and asked me to report in sight. I said "Approach, Archer 123AB is in IMC". ATC acknowledged but a minute or so later he did the same thing with another aircraft and I replied again that I was in IMC. Is this normal, or is there a better way that I should have explained my situation that would have made it more clear that I couldn't separate myself from other traffic?
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Yes, that's normal. IMC doesn't even necessarily mean solid white outside your window; it might just mean below VFR minima for the airspace. If you are able to report other traffic in sight, I think it changes ATC's separation regulations in certain airspace, though I'm not sure of that.
 
asicer said:
OK, now you've got me curious. From where did that term originate?
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Heck if I know. Like Luv said, that makes sense. Navy / Marines use it to indicate that they’re in the clouds.
 
Velocity173 said:
They have no idea if you’re IMC or not. Their order doesn’t say “issue traffic only if you believe the aircraft is VMC.” Second, unless they told you the other aircraft is VFR, that traffic call isn’t necessarily a VFR aircraft. Could be trying to get visual with another IFR aircraft so they he can use visual sep. Sometimes with merging target procedures you’ll get a traffic call even if standard separation is maintained.
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Thank you for this explanation! Makes much more since now
 
Pugs said:
Who knows - There are lots of them and some make sense and some make you scratch your head. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiservice_tactical_brevity_code

Angels 200 = FL 200
Cherubs 2 = 200'

Cherubs are small angels. :D

Parrot = IFF and parrots squawk - "strangle your parrot" = turn off your transponder.

It goes on and on.
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LOL. I resisted the urge once to say “choke your chicken.” Only time I remember ever wanting a pilot to turn it off. Looking back I wish I’d had the guts to say it.
 
Pugs said:
Who knows - There are lots of them and some make sense and some make you scratch your head. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiservice_tactical_brevity_code

Angels 200 = FL 200
Cherubs 2 = 200'

Cherubs are small angels. :D

Parrot = IFF and parrots squawk - "strangle your parrot" = turn off your transponder.

It goes on and on.
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Lol! I remember in Iraq the guys we’re using cherubs because they heard the Marines using it. I always looked at it as a service wide phraseology but our stands dept put an end to that mess.
 
I certainly understand the controller has no idea what I'm seeing or not seeing, so they are obligated to make the call regardless.

The part that cracks me up, or scares me sometimes, is the callout of a VFR target that you know darn good and well isn't really VFR. Nothing ATC can do but call it out, and they don't know one way or the other. But the guy that is running around in the clouds squawking 1200 and not talking to anyone is the problem. I've overheard a few guys bragging about their machismo doing just that.

Makes you want to take them out back...
 
midwestpa24 said:
Nothing like them pointing a VFR target at your altitude when you are solid IMC and there is no way anyone is VMC near you.
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Heads up when you exit that cloud ... I've seen it both ways. Was VFR and cleared through ALL the restricted areas on a fairly low ceiling day in southern Arizona on a July 4th years ago. As soon as I was "approved", about 6 other IFR's asked for that clearance and am not sure why, but were told they'd have to do it VFR. At least two in trail were definitely still IMC after claiming VFR behind me and higher.

sarangan said:
Its not uncommon, if the IMC is fairly localized. There may be a VFR airplane flying nearby. ATC can see rain, but not IMC.
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Exactly ...
 
midwestpa24 said:
I certainly understand the controller has no idea what I'm seeing or not seeing, so they are obligated to make the call regardless.

The part that cracks me up, or scares me sometimes, is the callout of a VFR target that you know darn good and well isn't really VFR. Nothing ATC can do but call it out, and they don't know one way or the other. But the guy that is running around in the clouds squawking 1200 and not talking to anyone is the problem. I've overheard a few guys bragging about their machismo doing just that.

Makes you want to take them out back...
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If they are in uncontrolled airspace and legal to fly IFR and not talking to ATC that's legal, kind of gives you a warm fuzzy feeling someone else might be close by in the clouds. Also their might be others in controlled airspace that fly into the airways that might just turn off their transponders and ADS-B and you would never know they were their unless you see them, then you have a real problem.
 
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brien23 said:
If they are in uncontrolled airspace and legal to fly IFR and not talking to ATC that's legal, kind of gives you a warm fuzzy feeling someone else might be close by in the clouds. Also their might be others in controlled airspace that fly into the airways that might just turn off their transponders and ADS-B and you would never know they were their unless you see them, then you have a real problem.
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Once you get more than about 200 nm north of the Canada/US border, most Canadian airspace below the flight levels is class G, so northern pilots routinely fly IFR without requiring a clearance. We even have a standard squawk code 1000 for uncontrolled IFR, similar to 1200 for uncontrolled VFR.

The situation in Alaska must be similar (does anyone here know?).
 
Although not common in the east, there are vast areas in the west where the Class G extends up to 14,500 MSL. As discussed above, no IFR plan needed to fly in the soup. With the marked increase of "Cleared direct to..." type flights over the years, I wonder how much longer that will last?
 
smv said:
Although not common in the east, there are vast areas in the west where the Class G extends up to 14,500 MSL. As discussed above, no IFR plan needed to fly in the soup. With the marked increase of "Cleared direct to..." type flights over the years, I wonder how much longer that will last?
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Nope. There is one piece down around the Big Bend in Texas. I’m pretty sure that’s the only Uncontrolled Airspace above 1200 AGL that’s left in the Lower 48.
 
brien23 said:
If they are in uncontrolled airspace and legal to fly IFR and not talking to ATC that's legal, kind of gives you a warm fuzzy feeling someone else might be close by in the clouds. Also their might be others in controlled airspace that fly into the airways that might just turn off their transponders and ADS-B and you would never know they were their unless you see them, then you have a real problem.
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It’s pretty much impossible to do that in the U. S. anymore. There’s almost no Class G left above 1200 AGL. By the time you comply with 91.177 a. (2) and 91.179 b., there’s nowhere to do it.
 
smv said:
Although not common in the east, there are vast areas in the west where the Class G extends up to 14,500 MSL. As discussed above, no IFR plan needed to fly in the soup. With the marked increase of "Cleared direct to..." type flights over the years, I wonder how much longer that will last?
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A couple of decades ago, we had a collision in class G near a northern airport (in VMC), because both planes were following GPS, so they were both dead centre on the airway. Back in the radio-navigation days, they probably would have missed each other, because VOR/NDB navigation isn't accurate enough to put you within a wing's width of the centreline.

One recommendation from that was to fly an offset to the right of the course centreline when in uncontrolled class-G IFR (even though IMC wasn't a factor in that crash). Modern GPSs like the GTN let you specify, e.g., a 1/2 mile offset from your course; not sure if older GPSs like the GNS series also support that.

D
 
luvflyin said:
Nope. There is one piece down around the Big Bend in Texas. I’m pretty sure that’s the only Uncontrolled Airspace above 1200 AGL that’s left in the Lower 48.
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Yah... That is correct. I forgot all about the Powder River airspace grab that eliminated most (all?) of the Class G over Montana, Wyoming, and the Dakotas.

:(
 
smv said:
Yah... That is correct. I forgot all about the Powder River airspace grab that eliminated most (all?) of the Class G over Montana, Wyoming, and the Dakotas.

:(
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Yeah. A couple years ago they did a ‘blanket’ Class E designation above 1200 in Los Angeles Center’s Airspace that eliminated all those little pieces of G there. I think that had already been done in some other Centers airspace’s by then.
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. A couple years ago they did a ‘blanket’ Class E designation above 1200 in Los Angeles Center’s Airspace that eliminated all those little pieces of G there. I think that had already been done in some other Centers airspace’s by then.
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Y'all/youse need to come north and visit us in Canada this summer. We'll show you real freedom to fly, with more class G than you can shake a yoke at. ;)
 
David Megginson said:
A couple of decades ago, we had a collision in class G near a northern airport (in VMC), because both planes were following GPS, so they were both dead centre on the airway. Back in the radio-navigation days, they probably would have missed each other, because VOR/NDB navigation isn't accurate enough to put you within a wing's width of the centreline.

One recommendation from that was to fly an offset to the right of the course centreline when in uncontrolled class-G IFR (even though IMC wasn't a factor in that crash). Modern GPSs like the GTN let you specify, e.g., a 1/2 mile offset from your course; not sure if older GPSs like the GNS series also support that.

D
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That’s a thing on Oceanic Routes. Offsets. This is IFR of course. ATC doesn’t get involved in it, the flying ‘industry’ manages it themselves.
 
ATC: "Nxxxx traffic 11 o-clock northbound same altitude report in sight."
Nxxxx: "Nxxxx we're currently IMC, we'll take a vector if that traffic is going to be a factor."
Done.

If you don't respond this way you may well end up hearing a supervisor key on the freq and very quickly and firmly say "Nxxxx immediate 90 degree right turn immediate 1000ft decent for traffic." Don't ask me how I know this. :rolleyes:
 
Juliet Hotel said:
ATC: "Nxxxx traffic 11 o-clock northbound same altitude report in sight."
Nxxxx: "Nxxxx we're currently IMC, we'll take a vector if that traffic is going to be a factor."
Done.

If you don't respond this way you may well end up hearing a supervisor key on the freq and very quickly and firmly say "Nxxxx immediate 90 degree right turn immediate 1000ft decent for traffic." Don't ask me how I know this. :rolleyes:
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Oops. Probably wasn’t a supervisor. Just a journeyman controller trading a new guy. Lol. I’ll let the training typo stand;)
 
PilotChase said:
I was flying some practice approaches today. Filed IFR because ceilings at about 700 feet. On the way down ATC gave a traffic pointout and asked me to report in sight. I said "Approach, Archer 123AB is in IMC". ATC acknowledged but a minute or so later he did the same thing with another aircraft and I replied again that I was in IMC. Is this normal, or is there a better way that I should have explained my situation that would have made it more clear that I couldn't separate myself from other traffic?
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I have had that happen too. ALl you can really do is what you mentioned. Oh the joys of the ATC system lol
 
“Currently IMC but will be looking for traffic”.
As above they don’t see what you see. But I have been surprised twice by a call about traffic they ATC says they are on radar but aren’t talking to them- in my vicinity of thick IMC. :eek::eek:
 
Quinn Banas said:
I have had that happen too. ALl you can really do is what you mentioned. Oh the joys of the ATC system lol
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I guess I’m misunderstanding the “joys” you reference from the OPs post. Does it have something to do with the controller in a dark room (maybe hundreds of miles away) not seeing what you see or something else?
 
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