Assigned Holding Pattern

flyingtexas

flyingtexas

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flyingtexas
I'm reading some IFR ground school and just finished a section talking about holding patterns. The books says ATC can assign you a holding pattern at any fix and they spell out the characteristics of the pattern and you fly it until further clearance.

Has anyone ever had that happen to them and if so was it difficult to get set up with everything else going on trying to fly and communicate and figure out the pattern?

Also, having never used DME but seen the instrument, for most holding patterns do they use round numbers for DME fixes or are they arbitrary.

I realize these questions sound novice....but hey, I'm a novice.

Thanks
 
I/we had to hold once en-route, we were using the GPS as DME.

ATC didn't really care how long legs were, they just needed a few minutes to separate us.
Direct entry, (on the same airway) 2 turns, done.

Not a big deal, but my experience is very limited.
 
I was assigned a hold at a fix during a approach in actual and told to expect to hold for 20 minutes. Before I could find the fix they just decided to vector me in to final and let me land. This was pre-GPS for me.
 
flyingtexas said:
I'm reading some IFR ground school and just finished a section talking about holding patterns. The books says ATC can assign you a holding pattern at any fix and they spell out the characteristics of the pattern and you fly it until further clearance.
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Not exactly. TACAN-only aircraft cannot be held directly overhead the TACAN. Fixes composed of crossing radials must meet minimum divergence angles and distance to NAVAID restrictions.
 
Yes. You find this happens in really congested areas in bad weather. For example New york area and something happens like a runway at LGA closing or weather moving thu. Seems atc can sometime run out of places to "Stack" aircraft untill the event has been resolved. I think that they use the published holding patterns as much a possible and just use diffent altitudes . Just my 2 Cents
 
I've had it happen a couple of times when I was flying out of radar coverage and they wanted to be sure I wasn't getting too close to someone ahead of me in the blacked out area.

Sometimes the hold will be depicted on the enroute chart, in which case you'll get "Hold as published at XXYYZ, Expect further clearance ..."

Other times if not published they'll give you "Hold at XXYYZ, left turns, two minute legs (or five mile legs), Expect further clearance..."

While I suppose it's possible that they may give you an inbound course to the holding fix that's different than the course you are currently flying, I've never had that happen to me.

So so far it's always been:
Hit the fix
Turn in the direction given.
Start measuring the outbound leg (in time or distance)
Turn as needed and head inbound.

The hardest part has been remembering to stop the GPS from sequencing on to the next fix. What I do now is that as soon as I'm on the leg to the holding fix, I put the GPS into OBS/SUSP mode and set the OBS for my current course to the fix. Then when I hit the fix I've can turn and I've got distance to the fix showing, and my inbound course showing, etc.

I may have been lucky but so far I've never gotten a hold without enough time to think about it and set up for it.
 
Just my $ .02 worth. I just finished my rating several months ago and I got assigned two holds during training flights on cross countries, and both were during approaches to uncontrolled fields during vfr conditions. Both were for separation purposes and required non-direct entries. My CFII was just shaking his head both times as he said he had never been assigned a hold and couldn't believe I was getting them. Great workouts, though.
 
Thumper said:
Just my $ .02 worth. I just finished my rating several months ago and I got assigned two holds during training flights on cross countries, and both were during approaches to uncontrolled fields during vfr conditions. Both were for separation purposes and required non-direct entries. My CFII was just shaking his head both times as he said he had never been assigned a hold and couldn't believe I was getting them. Great workouts, though.
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Probably because there were other IFR aircraft inbound to those fields ahead of you. You either hold and wait for them to cancel or cancel yourself.
 
Other than in training, my only one was the the SAF VOR for traffic separation. As with some of the others, I received a partial holding clearance. In my case, the radial wasn't specified, only that I hold southeast. Since I was coming in from the southeast, I made a simple direct entry and set up to hold on the radial I was already coming in on.
 
While ATC can assign you a hold at any intersection, including unpublished ones, I believe they are taught that they shouldn't issue holds at unpublished intersections. Also, it is extremely rare for them to issue an unpublished hold other than along your course arriving at the fix.

However, keep in mind that their scope doesn't tell them where the hold is published, only that it is published. A hold published only on only one approach to one airport looks the same as any other published hold to them. Thus, if you're heading up to Lawrence MA, and they tell you to hold as published at the Lawrence VOR, they don't know that the only place the hold at Lawrence VOR is published is on one of the approaches to Lawrence (VOR, I think), and they get testy when you tell them you can't find it on your L-chart or the ILS approach to Lawrence which you will be flying.
 
Ron Levy said:
While ATC can assign you a hold at any intersection, including unpublished ones, I believe they are taught that they shouldn't issue holds at unpublished intersections. Also, it is extremely rare for them to issue an unpublished hold other than along your course arriving at the fix.

However, keep in mind that their scope doesn't tell them where the hold is published, only that it is published. A hold published only on only one approach to one airport looks the same as any other published hold to them. Thus, if you're heading up to Lawrence MA, and they tell you to hold as published at the Lawrence VOR, they don't know that the only place the hold at Lawrence VOR is published is on one of the approaches to Lawrence (VOR, I think), and they get testy when you tell them you can't find it on your L-chart or the ILS approach to Lawrence which you will be flying.
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How does their scope indicate a hold is published?
 
We get assigned holding on occasion. The two most frequent times are when going into a non-radar, uncontrolled airport with someone already doing the approach or departing, or going into a busy airport with a traffic flow problem, usually because of t-storms or something.
 
Ive held on the localizer at Des Moines, IA countless winter mornings awaiting snow removal or for freight dawg mins. The only other hold that was assigned was around MKE due to weather. Assigned holds are pretty rare, but keeping those skills sharp are very important.
 
It's pretty rare to get assigned a hold, and typically (in my experience) it's been "as published." If you're flying into busy airports regularly, though, it's a different matter. For most of what you do in instrument training and real-world flight, holds will be for training purposes. Clay is correct that it's important to keep these skills sharp, though, because when you need them may be when you least want to deal with it.
 
The interesting part of my hold was that it was as a IAF and the AWOS was reporting a 1800 foot ceiling ( I was at 3000 and in the clouds ) and when I was cleared to the approach they told me the last person broke out at 400 feet. I was not real pleased at that but but when I broke out at 400 feet there was every light in the world turned on ( daylight ) and I was very happy to see that all the IFR stuff really worked. :)
 
On my first flight after getting my IR ticket, I was assigned a hold due to another IFR a/c landing at an airport near where I was going and their missed approach fix was near my IAF. The controller told me about it 10-15 minutes out - "I'm going to need you to hold if we don't get a cancellation from this guy soon." I said "How about I just slow down now?" He said "That will work." No hold necessary. :)
 
The only time I have been given a hold (other one requested for training) was to an unpublished fix when I was arriving IFR to PHX during a morning rush. Approach gave me a radial and DME from PXR and told me to hold there, right turns with and EFC. What the controller did not provide was which side she wanted me to hold on and being caught off guard by the suprise hold, I didn't notice....I just went to the fix and entered the way that seemed most logical. Must have been what the controller wanted because she never said anything, but the lesson learned was that if they fail to give you all the info - ask them for clarification.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The only time I have been given a hold (other one requested for training) was to an unpublished fix when I was arriving IFR to PHX during a morning rush. Approach gave me a radial and DME from PXR and told me to hold there, right turns with and EFC. What the controller did not provide was which side she wanted me to hold on and being caught off guard by the suprise hold, I didn't notice....I just went to the fix and entered the way that seemed most logical. Must have been what the controller wanted because she never said anything, but the lesson learned was that if they fail to give you all the info - ask them for clarification.
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Direction of holding pattern turns is to be specified if left turns are to be made, the pilot requests it, or the controller considers it necessary.
 
roncachamp said:
Direction of holding pattern turns is to be specified if left turns are to be made, the pilot requests it, or the controller considers it necessary.
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So in my case the controller gave me the direction for right turns (which was uneccessary) but didn't tell me which side to hold on?
 
roncachamp said:
You mean she didn't issue the direction of holding from the fix?
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Exactly, she gave me the instruction 'right turns' but not the direction of holding. Perhaps she meant to say hold on the right side instead of specifying the turns since that would not have been required. That is what I did since it made the most sense to me (holding on the left side would have had me closer to the traffic flow of PHX), but I didn't think to ask for clarification until well after I was on the ground.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Exactly, she gave me the instruction 'right turns' but not the direction of holding. Perhaps she meant to say hold on the right side instead of specifying the turns since that would not have been required. That is what I did since it made the most sense to me (holding on the left side would have had me closer to the traffic flow of PHX), but I didn't think to ask for clarification until well after I was on the ground.
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Wouldn't the direction be implied by the radial she asked you to hold on?
 
Fearless Tower said:
Exactly, she gave me the instruction 'right turns' but not the direction of holding. Perhaps she meant to say hold on the right side instead of specifying the turns since that would not have been required. That is what I did since it made the most sense to me (holding on the left side would have had me closer to the traffic flow of PHX), but I didn't think to ask for clarification until well after I was on the ground.
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Direction of holding from the fix should be stated that way, a direction from the fix. Example; "hold east of (specified fix) on (specified radial)..."
 
roncachamp said:
Direction of holding from the fix should be stated that way, a direction from the fix. Example; "hold east of (specified fix) on (specified radial)..."
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Agree, that was what was missing from the clearance there was no hold east or west of the radial given.
 
Everskyward said:
Wouldn't the direction be implied by the radial she asked you to hold on?
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No, because you could hold (and make right turns) on either side of the radial. One side I could make a direct entry while other side would have required a teardrop and put me closer to the traffic flow.
 
Fearless Tower said:
No, because you could hold (and make right turns) on either side of the radial.
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Not really, because there is only one place a specific radial can be located and if you make right turns that tells you where you are supposed to be holding. For example, if she only said hold on the 90 degree radial of XXX, right turns, where else would you hold besides east of the fix?
 
roncachamp said:
It would if the holding fix was the VOR, but direction of holding from the fix is supposed to be stated anyway.
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I understand it's supposed to be stated anyway but it doesn't seem that hard to figure out if it isn't.
 
Fearless Tower said:
But the VOR wasn't the fix. It was a DME fix on a VOR radial.
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I see what you mean now and I would have asked for clarification too. But if would normally make more sense to hold on the side of the direction you are coming from than to pass the fix and turn around because then you would need to reverse course again to get to where you were going.
 
Everskyward said:
Not really, because there is only one place a specific radial can be located and if you make right turns that tells you where you are supposed to be holding. For example, if she only said hold on the 90 degree radial of XXX, right turns, where else would you hold besides east of the fix?
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I think you're still missing that the hold was at a DME fix, not at a VOR.
 
Everskyward said:
I see what you mean now and I would have asked for clarification too. But if would normally make more sense to hold on the side of the direction you are coming from than to pass the fix and turn around because then you would need to reverse course again to get to where you were going.
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And that is what I did
 
roncachamp said:
Direction of holding pattern turns is to be specified if left turns are to be made, the pilot requests it, or the controller considers it necessary.
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My impression is that what the controller failed to tell FT was which side of the fix, not the radial, to hold on, e.g., north or south of the 180 radial 10 DME fix. FWIW, I believe that even when the hold is published, the controller is supposed to give the cardinal direction of the fix, e.g., "hold northeast of the SBY VOR as published, EFC..."
2. When the pattern is charted, you may omit all holding instructions except the charted holding direction and the statement “as published.” Always issue complete holding instructions when the pilot requests them.
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Ron Levy said:
I don't know -- you tell me.
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No, you tell me, you're the one that said the scope indicates a hold is published. I have no knowledge of this.

All I know is the controller said it was depicted on his scope.
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Methinks you misinterpreted the controller.
 
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roncachamp said:
No, you tell me, you're the one that said the scope indicates a hold is published. I have no knowledge of this.

Methinks you misinterpreted the controller.
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...or the controller misspoke. In any event, it's clear from what happened that controllers may know it's published, but not where it's published, and it may not be published on the chart you're using. Of course, 7110.65 tells controllers to give full instructions upon pilot request, but it took some debate before we got that from that Boston TRACON controller,
 
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