Aspen Avionics announces "Connected Panel"

[jason]

sectionals come out every 6 months. A/FD's include sectional updates and are issued every 54 (or maybe 56) days

Yeah. You're right. I was looking at the foreflight cycles. I still stand behind the statement that it would cost more for a full paper cycle of all charts relevant to the flights that would be made...even VFR...and within the reach of one sectional.

 

[Bob Noel]

I still stand behind the statement that it would cost more for a full paper cycle of all charts relevant to the flights that would be made...even VFR...and within the reach of one sectional.

Are you claiming that a sectional and an AFD is not sufficient for VFR flight?

If so, what is the basis of that claim?

 

[jesse]

Are you claiming that a sectional and an AFD is not sufficient for VFR flight?

If so, what is the basis of that claim?

So we'll say that you only need a current sectional and current AFD for one area. You never fly cross country.

The AF/D is published every 56 days, so you'll need 6 per year ($5 * 6) = $30
You'll need two sectionals for a year (9.75 * 2) = $19.50

30 + 19.50 = $50

So if you're a VFR only pilot, that never does a cross country, you're looking at $50 per year. Foreflight is $75 per year and has the ENTIRE country (all types of charts), flight planning, gps, weather, etc.

The vast majority of pilots would easily save money buying Foreflight. If you are the odd one that never does a cross country you won't save money, but it'd barely cost you anything more for a LOT of functionality.

I've spent over a hundred dollars on charts for one cross country before. And they're all junk a few months later. No thanks.

Sure the iPad isn't free either, but if you are an active pilot that does some cross country flying it will very quickly pay for itself.

 

[jason]

Are you claiming that a sectional and an AFD is not sufficient for VFR flight?

If so, what is the basis of that claim?

No, I did not claim that. But if you were flying out of SEA, I would add a TAC to that list.

So, I did the math...

((365/56) * 5.85) <-- A/FD
+
(9.75 * 2) <-- SEA sectional
+
(5.05 * 2) <-- SEA TAC
------------------------------
$67.73 (from sporty's plus shipping)

That is the minimum amount of charting that you would need to stay legal for VFR flight if you flew once a month from inside of the Class B airspace.

That obviously doesn't include the cost of any additional charts.

What you'd be missing for the fight at that point is access to NOTAMs/TFRs/weather/etc., all of which Foreflight will download and store for you. (you don't necessarily need those *with you* but you would need to check all of them before each flight)

I'm not arguing that flights cannot be conducted safely and efficiently without Foreflight (or any other EFB software, for that matter). I am, of course, also not including the cost of the iPad itself in my $75/year number. But for people that fly frequently or fly IFR or fly cross country...you can quickly recoup the costs.

Tom said he didn't know why he needed one. He doesn't. I was telling him why these new fangled fancy gizmos make sense to the rest of us.

 

[tonycondon]

you guys are sort of ignoring the purchase price of the Ipad plus the monthly 3G access charges. Granted, it is probably something you were going to get anyway but for those of us maybe considering ditching paper charts its a major added expense.

 

[EdFred]

There are other portable complete electronic chart options out there that don't require an iPad or any other tablet.

 

[jason]

you guys are sort of ignoring the purchase price of the Ipad plus the monthly 3G access charges. Granted, it is probably something you were going to get anyway but for those of us maybe considering ditching paper charts its a major added expense.

I think that Jesse and I both mentioned the cost of the iPad in addition to the $75/year. Also, you don't NEED to carry the monthly 3G. The charts can all be downloaded to the device and you can brief/file using wifi.

You're right, though, I'd probably have one anyway. That's when it *really* becomes a no brainer.

I'm not kidding, though. Jesse and I had a deal for our 2010 flight to Gaston's. I'd pay to reup the XM subscription on my 396 for a month if he bought the charts. One cycle of sectionals, low enroutes, IAPs, and A/FDs for a flight between KLNK and 3M0 from the local FBO cost him $135. How many of those would it take to make up the cost...even taking the purchase price of the iPad into account?

 

[tonycondon]

i seem to have a XC season that runs mainly through the summer months when i seem to have reasons to go see my parents, in-laws, etc. Luckily all of these trips go to the same general area of the country so all the same charts work.

i suppose it would take about 5 or 6 trips to gastons to pay for your iPad

 

[jesse]

There are other portable complete electronic chart options out there that don't require an iPad or any other tablet.

And I bet an iPad costs less than the hardware required to run them.

 

[EdFred]

And I bet an iPad costs less than the hardware required to run them.

They can be had for about the same price.

 

[jason]

They can be had for about the same price.

With all of the same features?

That's the thing. I totally get that there are competing products. But I haven't seen any with as usable of a form factor...nor the same feature set...nor the same user experience. At this point, I really believe that the only real reason to buy something other than an iPad as an EFB is if you simply hate Apple products. You're the only other person that I've seen with a legitimate reason (form factor vs. space available).

 

[Tom-D]

1) The sectional cycle is (I believe) every four weeks. So let's fix some math here...

(52/4) * $9.75 = $126.75/year (if you keep current charts)

2) Sectionals don't contain "all available information concerning that flight"

Getting more to the point, where is the requirement that requires you to carry charts?

I can get all the info I need to fly from OKH to BVS by calling 1-360-757-7767

and looking out my window at home, if the weather is too bad to see BVS we don't go.

 

[EdFred]

With all of the same features?

That's the thing. I totally get that there are competing products. But I haven't seen any with as usable of a form factor...nor the same feature set...nor the same user experience. At this point, I really believe that the only real reason to buy something other than an iPad as an EFB is if you simply hate Apple products. You're the only other person that I've seen with a legitimate reason (form factor vs. space available).

I don't know all of Foreflight's features. I know that with what I have, I think the only thing FF claims that I don't is geo-referenced approach plates - which I don't know how they do considering they aren't drawn to scale. And what I have does that with in the map display portion anyway. All you need the plate for at that point is MDA/DH. But with mine I also have synthetic vision, satellite imagery (if I care to d/l it) and "ILS boxes" for every approach.

What I have now runs on an XP mobile PC. There are quite a few different pieces of hardware out there ranging in price from less to more than the iPad.

But I can also hook up other hardware to it with ease.

 

[jason]

Getting more to the point, where is the requirement that requires you to carry charts?

I can get all the info I need to fly from OKH to BVS by calling 1-360-757-7767

and looking out my window at home, if the weather is too bad to see BVS we don't go.

And...as I said above...

Tom said he didn't know why he needed one. He doesn't. I was telling him why these new fangled fancy gizmos make sense to the rest of us.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

But what is the FAA going to say about that? A portable box hooking up to a primary flight system. I don't see that going over well.

There's a "fix" for that in the way it works... See below.

Garmin already does this. You can connect a 496 (and I'd suspect a 696) to a 430/530, and it will even allow an automatic crossfill. One of my friends does this on his Travel Air. The 496 has a mount on the upper left of the panel, and has a wire connecting it to the 530. Loads up his flight plan on the 530 and it crossfills to the 496.

However, you cannot enter your flight plan at home on the 496 and crossfill it to the 530. That's what's different here, is that the portable device is feeding the panel, and Ed's right that the FAA has not previously allowed that.

The way Aspen solves the FAA's "no-you-may-not-push-data-from-a-non-certified-portable-to-a-certified-panel-mount" rule is this: When you send a new flight plan from the iPad to the Aspen, it doesn't just change - A "Flight Plan" softkey appears on the Aspen MFD. When you press it, it displays the flight plan that the iPad sent it, and you have to hit "Accept" or "Reject." When sending a flight plan from the panel to the iPad, no such thing is necessary.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

More importantly, putting $75,000 of avionics in a $60,000 plane isn't exactly a winner, either. Flying is already expensive enough.

The Aspen stuff is a lot cheaper than $75K. PFD + MFD + Connected Panel unit should be under $25K installed, and it does a lot of nice things for an old plane.

Missing something here... what is gained from the connection?

The currently-available "thing" is that you can flight-plan on your iPad or another device at home, and send the flight plan to your panel when you get there rather than having to spend 10 minutes twisting knobs.

However, there will be LOTS more available. The Aspen box will have a pair of SD cards in it, onto which you can load MP3's, and the kids in the back seat will be able to control the music that plays through your PS Engineering audio panel with a smartphone, for example. Since the API is open, anyone with a great idea can make something happen with this system.

Did they mention the cost on this box?

IIRC it was $3K.

I don't know about you guys, but I expect integrated to mean just that and not simply connected. Why should I pull up data on an iPad, then press a button on a panel mount?

So you don't have to spend a ton of time using knobs to enter things - It's MUCH easier to use the keyboard on the iPad to enter your flight plan, or even just use touch planning. It's really fast to enter frequencies too.

I use my iPad as backup and chart reading/ flight planning. When I use (for example) the G1000, I prefer to do everything there.

That'll work still, but then you'd also be able to hit a button on the iPad to grab the entire flight plan from the panel-mount stuff instantaneously rather than entering it twice (once on the panel, once on the portable).

Could be nice if the Connected Panel was able to stream all cockpit data to an iPad for display and logging (i.e. Weather from XM, Engine Data, IFR GPS track, Comm play back, etc.).

It can. Note that JPI is one of the partners in this, and that's the sort of thing that you'll be able to do eventually. ForeFlight is only the beginning.

The iPad would quickly be able to parse comm data and store the transmissions that have your call sign in them. You could replay any transmission instead of just the last 60 seconds or so. Same goes for engine monitoring. If you think you heard a hick-up but its running/looking smooth now, pull up the last few minutes of data. It could serve as a form of flight data recorder.

Now you're talking... Cool stuff is around the corner.

Most importantly, if you have an emergency, push the "File Flight Plan" button, I hear it works even better than Straight & Level.

Except an iPad is too big to mount on the panel. Anywhere else it gets in the way.

Meh - Depends on the airplane. I am able to mount the iPad in both the DA40 and the 182 in such a way that it doesn't get in the way. In the DA40 (suction cup mount) all it's blocking is an air vent, and in the 182 (yoke mount) it's not blocking anything. I think if it was an inch bigger in any dimension, though, it would be blocking things in both cases. But as it is, it doesn't.

Phone size devices would be able to provide the same functionality in a much smaller space.

Yup. The Connected Panel will support up to 6 WiFi devices.

Have they said if this will be a certified product or something only available to the experimental world?

Certified.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'd be very worried about the long-term reliability if there's no air gap between the iPad and a primary flight system. For several reasons.

No air gap? What do you mean?

1. The iPad can be networked, so it can become corrupted. If there aren't viruses and trojans now, there might be in the future. Do you want something that can be corrupted like that to be connected to your primary flight display, navigation system, and autopilot?

I'm already using it for charts... Plus, the iPad cannot directly control the avionics, like I mentioned in a previous post - It "suggests" changes in the flight plan, and you have to hit an "accept" button before the flight plan will be changed on the panel.

2. The iPad can run different apps. What if one of them conflicts with your PFD or navigation system while you are in flight? Maybe not now, but years from now?

Since you would have to specifically address commands to the Aspen box via the API for it to pay any attention to what the iPad was doing, I don't see how an app could conflict.

3. The iPad operating system will not remain the same. It will be updated frequently. Many planes operate the same way today that they did 25 years ago and you can rely on them without worrying about system updates and the like, but if there's a data connection between your panel's avionics and an iPad, you can't count on that. Just think of what it would be like if your flying experience relied on a 1990's era Windows computer that was built on DOS.

With the open API, developers will be able to continually update their own software so that it works with the latest iOS (or whatever device OS) but still sends the correct commands to the Aspen box. If a developer stops updating their software, a new developer will be able to fill the void. Because of the open API, the Connected Panel isn't dependent on any particular hardware or software to work.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

you guys are sort of ignoring the purchase price of the Ipad plus the monthly 3G access charges. Granted, it is probably something you were going to get anyway but for those of us maybe considering ditching paper charts its a major added expense.

It's a lot easier to "ignore" the purchase price of the iPad than something like a 496, though. The 496 is useful for only one other thing (car navigation) besides its use in the airplane. The iPad is useful for a TON of stuff.

I haven't done an exact calculation in a few months, but as of about March, the iPad was more than 75% of the way to paying for itself in my case due to both the lower cost of ForeFlight compared to paper charts, and the lower cost of electronic textbooks instead of paper. I expect that by the time I replace the iPad, it will have more than paid for itself.

There are other portable complete electronic chart options out there that don't require an iPad or any other tablet.

Yep - And you may have missed that Seattle Avionics is one of the partners with this Aspen Connected Panel as well. Voyager is a great product, so it's good to see that there'll be some other options.

And I bet an iPad costs less than the hardware required to run them.

Two things to say about that:

1) An iPad is one helluva lot cheaper than most things we put on airplanes, and it does more too.

2) In wandering the exhibit hangars this week at OSH, I was given a demo of a Windoze-based EFB whose salesperson assured me that when he was done, I'd really "regret spending $800 on an iPad." He then proceeded to show me a device that cost $3800 and wasn't even as good as the iPad. Fail!

 

[Henning]

Garmin already does this. You can connect a 496 (and I'd suspect a 696) to a 430/530, and it will even allow an automatic crossfill. One of my friends does this on his Travel Air. The 496 has a mount on the upper left of the panel, and has a wire connecting it to the 530. Loads up his flight plan on the 530 and it crossfills to the 496.

I'm not sure what else the Aspen/iPad connectivity will allow, but I don't suspect there's anything there that hasn't already been done in principle. The implementation aspect will be what makes it really nice.

The 430/530 cross fill between each other, but IIRC they only up fill to the 496, IOW you can't load a flight plan from the 496- the 530, but the 530 will load to the 496.

 

[Clark1961]

2) In wandering the exhibit hangars this week at OSH, I was given a demo of a Windoze-based EFB whose salesperson assured me that when he was done, I'd really "regret spending $800 on an iPad." He then proceeded to show me a device that cost $3800 and wasn't even as good as the iPad. Fail!

Just remember that down deep, salespeople are wonderful and that's why they should be buried at sea.

 

[Tom-D]

In all seriousness I may not need one to fly as I do, but ::::

I see the Ipad FF combo putting a serious cramp in hand held GPS sales

and many will elect to go the Ipad/FF and file using their old ADF equipment to do the IFR stuff with the Ipad as guidance.

 

[Everskyward]

The AF/D is published every 56 days, so you'll need 6 per year ($5 * 6) = $30

There's an online AFD which you can apparently download although I've never done that.

http://aeronav.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=aeronav/applications/d_afd

I can see Tom's point but I can also see how Foreflight is probably better than paper clips or even ice cream, although I've never used it other than to gaze at someone's sectional display for a few minutes. If I had my own airplane I would probably invest in it.

 

[Henning]

There are other portable complete electronic chart options out there that don't require an iPad or any other tablet.

True, but most of them are cumbersome, in both hardware and soft, for use in the cockpit.

 

[SkyHog]

I'm confused. This seems like a really neat feature....but what do you lose by not connecting the iPad? Isn't it already going to have a GPS and all the GPS features that the iPad would provide? Is the benefit just plotted GPS track on a geo-referenced chart (L or Sectional)? If so, can't you get that with the iPad by itself, without the Aspen?

 

[Clark1961]

I'm confused. This seems like a really neat feature....but what do you lose by not connecting the iPad? Isn't it already going to have a GPS and all the GPS features that the iPad would provide? Is the benefit just plotted GPS track on a geo-referenced chart (L or Sectional)? If so, can't you get that with the iPad by itself, without the Aspen?

Certainly the ipad does all that without the Aspen.

If I can dump the course from the ipad to the Aspen then I gain a way to enter a course. Right now the only way to get a course in the Aspen is to dump it from a panel mounted GPS. The Aspen internal GPS is not certified for IFR but it does have a reversion mode that remembers the last way point. The Aspen has GPSS built in so maybe (big maybe since I don't know how it works) the Aspen/ipad combo can direct the autopilot.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm confused. This seems like a really neat feature....but what do you lose by not connecting the iPad? Isn't it already going to have a GPS and all the GPS features that the iPad would provide? Is the benefit just plotted GPS track on a geo-referenced chart (L or Sectional)? If so, can't you get that with the iPad by itself, without the Aspen?

The geo-ref is available on the iPad without the Aspen. You gain several things by being able to connect the iPad:

1) You can plan your flight at home on the iPad and just "beam" it to the plane when you fire up, instead of doing the knobby-twisty-dance.
2) After you fire up, any changes to your flight plan can be sent in either direction so you don't have to change the plan on both the panel-mount stuff and the iPad.
3) The iPad can instantly tune your radios - Again, much faster than twisting the knobs.
4) The possibilities are endless. With an open API, you could make a laptop, tablet, or smartphone app to do... Well, whatever. I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out in the next couple of years...

 

[zaitcev]

I will believe in the open API when I download the spec and read the license.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Except an iPad is too big to mount on the panel. Anywhere else it gets in the way. So is an Asus, a Galaxy, Crackberry's version...

We bought a mount for the iPad at OSH that has a short articulating arm, allowing us to suction-cup the thing to the side window. We always fly two-pilot, so we mount it on the right side, putting it right in front of you.

It was the best $22 I spent at OSH. It worked great on the long flight home.

 

[EdFred]

We bought a mount for the iPad at OSH that has a short articulating arm, allowing us to suction-cup the thing to the side window. We always fly two-pilot, so we mount it on the right side, putting it right in front of you.

It was the best $22 I spent at OSH. It worked great on the long flight home.

To me, that's in the way. This is not.

 

[denverpilot]

This is entertaining, but I'm still waiting for in-flight WX on the iPad... that would be a feature almost 100% of Foreflight users would use.

What percentage of Foreflight users will use this box and have Aspen in the panel? Bad business decision to do this one first, IMHO.

 

[denverpilot]

you guys are sort of ignoring the purchase price of the Ipad plus the monthly 3G access charges. Granted, it is probably something you were going to get anyway but for those of us maybe considering ditching paper charts its a major added expense.

Drop the 3G. You don't need it at all. Tether the thing to your iPhone if you really can't find WiFi. Works fine here.

 

[Jaybird180]

We bought a mount for the iPad at OSH that has a short articulating arm, allowing us to suction-cup the thing to the side window. We always fly two-pilot, so we mount it on the right side, putting it right in front of you.

It was the best $22 I spent at OSH. It worked great on the long flight home.

What is this contraption of which you speak?

 

[tonycondon]

Drop the 3G. You don't need it at all. Tether the thing to your iPhone if you really can't find WiFi. Works fine here.

i don't have an iphone either. the only ithing i have is an ipod that is somewhere in the back of a desk drawer somewhere

 

[flyingcheesehead]

This is entertaining, but I'm still waiting for in-flight WX on the iPad... that would be a feature almost 100% of Foreflight users would use.

What percentage of Foreflight users will use this box and have Aspen in the panel? Bad business decision to do this one first, IMHO.

Disagree. AFAICT, the hardware to do XM on the iPad isn't shipping yet. ADS-B boxes are shipping but are still in the "holy crap is that really the price?" stage. Being the first to market on this isn't going to give a whole lot of users something today, but it's good business on Aspen's part to have the predominant mobile app to show off their new toy with, and it's good business on ForeFlight's part to be first to market for compatibility with the new gadgetry. Hey, if nothing else, it's publicity on Aspen's dime.

When the hardware shakes out a bit more, the software will be there. ForeFlight's development cycle is quite fast, with fairly major upgrades appearing every couple of months or less for the last couple of years (FF 3.0 was released in late December 2009 - So, 12 significant upgrades in 19 months is a pretty good average). So I don't think a quick detour that probably took a day for them to add is a bad business decision when the hardware for the other stuff isn't effectively available yet either.

 

[chucky]

This is entertaining, but I'm still waiting for in-flight WX on the iPad... that would be a feature almost 100% of Foreflight users would use.

For in-flight weather, I'd buy an iPad.

 

[wsuffa]

Drop the 3G. You don't need it at all. Tether the thing to your iPhone if you really can't find WiFi. Works fine here.

Or tether to an Android. Or a MiFi works, too. That's my plan.

Disagree. AFAICT, the hardware to do XM on the iPad isn't shipping yet.

Actually it is. My box from Baron/WxWorx arrives tomorrow. The software is behind.... I'm hoping FF can deliver soon.

For in-flight weather, I'd buy an iPad.

The impending support of XM weather is the single feature that is pushing me to FF/iPad now. Once implemented, it wiill allow me to retire an old & heavy ruggedized tablet PC that displays the weather but isn't integrated into the maps very well.

 

[chucky]

Actually it is. My box from Baron/WxWorx arrives tomorrow. The software is behind.... I'm hoping FF can deliver soon.

That piqued my curiosity. Is it this that you're referring to? They certainly aren't cheap, but I'd love to hear your thoughts after you've used it a bit.

 

[wsuffa]

That piqued my curiosity. Is it this that you're referring to? They certainly aren't cheap, but I'd love to hear your thoughts after you've used it a bit.

I already have a receiver. I ordered the new "box" that's an interface between the old(er) receiver and the android/iPad. The interface alone is $200.

 

[denverpilot]

I also have access to a receiver. Well airplane co-owner has one. As does anyone else who did XM weather years ago with ChartCase.

The adapter to get from that receiver to the iPad has been out for a few months now, which is why I was thinking FF would announce support at OSH. This much touted "rapid development cycle", isn't pointed at the things 80% of their users will utilize.

Need to apply the 80/20 rule. Yes, I agree that they got free press from Aspen. If that's their goal, versus deploying at the very least a replacement for the Garmin units... They're not even to that point yet, still piles of features behind where ChartCase was years ago, and they're playing house with the big avionics kids.

Transferring a flight plan is a big huge yawn when they don't even have TFRs depicted on the charts yet, nor weather, nor vertical side-views of airspace or ceilings from METAR data, nor overlaid wind barbs, nor terrain avoidance, nor usable timers... the list is still pretty long.

The old excuse was that it was never meant to be a navigation tool, just a chart replacement, last year.

I get the distinct impression the FF leadership fly in aircraft already equipped with on-board IFR GPSs and Weather. Thus, low priority. Getting their flight plan into the PFD took precedence.

They need to think harder about what features are needed to fly behind the iPad as a sole-device, VFR.

I'll keep sending money. Just hoping they get their priorities straightened out. There were at least two "hungry" companies I saw in other booths that had already matched the early feature-set that took FF a year, and one was only two months old.

It's going to be a big year for iPad software competition I think. WingX is ahead in a number of areas already and these other companies are going to push hard from behind/below. One had integrated Google Earth airport imagery, another had integrated airport diagrams that overlaid the chart opaquely.

Great ideas. And "universal" ones for most pilots. The Aspen thing helps how many FF customers?

It's not good business to come to OSH with the only big announcement being for a minority of the overall customer base.

If I had an Aspen, I might care. Since I don't, it looks like a distraction to me from the perspective of a "core" customer.

 

[TMetzinger]

I still cannot swallow paying almost a grand for an XM WX receiver (which is what they all were running last time I looked). And that's before paying the subscription fee.