Asking for Pop-up IFR Clearance

PaulS said:
I did wonder if they were checking to see if I was rated, but that's not really my problem.
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Nor is it theirs. Enforcement of violations is not in the controllers job description. If a pilot asks for an IFR clearance, its the controllers job to issue that clearance so long as they are able to do so.

There was a case where a pilot was working on the IR with a CFII. The pilot fired the CFII or the CFII fired the pilot. The weather was crap and the pilot wanted to get home so he filed IFR and left. The CFII called the tower and told them the pilot of Nxxxx just filed an IFR plan and he is not instrument rated. The tower told the CFII there was nothing they could do. If the pilot called and asked for the clearance, they are required to give it to him.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Nor is it theirs. Enforcement of violations is not in the controllers job description. If a pilot asks for an IFR clearance, its the controllers job to issue that clearance so long as they are able to do so.

There was a case where a pilot was working on the IR with a CFII. The pilot fired the CFII or the CFII fired the pilot. The weather was crap and the pilot wanted to get home so he filed IFR and left. The CFII called the tower and told them the pilot of Nxxxx just filed an IFR plan and he is not instrument rated. The tower told the CFII there was nothing they could do. If the pilot called and asked for the clearance, they are required to give it to him.
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That’s pretty interesting.
 
Thing
Juliet Hotel said:
Nor is it theirs. Enforcement of violations is not in the controllers job description. If a pilot asks for an IFR clearance, its the controllers job to issue that clearance so long as they are able to do so.

There was a case where a pilot was working on the IR with a CFII. The pilot fired the CFII or the CFII fired the pilot. The weather was crap and the pilot wanted to get home so he filed IFR and left. The CFII called the tower and told them the pilot of Nxxxx just filed an IFR plan and he is not instrument rated. The tower told the CFII there was nothing they could do. If the pilot called and asked for the clearance, they are required to give it to him.
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Yup. If sumpin bad woulda happened tho you can bet a jury would have been convinced to redistribute some of the G’vmts money.
 
eman1200 said:
Oh I’m sorry, am I not allowed to post a thread or have an opinion? I don’t recall seeing a rule where everyone else gets to open a thread except me. My sincere apologies for apparently having ruined your day. I can understand how much of an inconvenience it can be to skip a thread that you aren’t interested in. My bad. I’ll do my best not to get in the way of your and dik hollidays infinite wisdom that you grace this board with.
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But why though? I read the other thread but still don’t know why. I’ll ask my cfii who also works as a center controller what their opinion is. By ranting against a specific word you might be convincing other less experienced pilots that they have to be very careful with ATC communications, which is pure bs.

If you have a question, ask. What specific words you use ... except the “E word” are of little importance, excluding airspace specific communication.

I will continue to use the “R word” because that’s how I feel it best represents what I want in a concise fashion without adding a sense of urgency or cold calling with an extensive initial call that will likely all need repeating.
 
In my case, they asked if I was rated and current, then asked for my phone number which I think for verification purposes.
The conditions were below minimums but otherwise benign, just low level clouds. FWIW, they seemed concerned that I was attempting an approach, they reiterated the airport was below minimums. I ended up doing 3 approaches before the clouds lifted enough for me to see the runway at minimums.
 
woodchucker said:
But why though? I read the other thread but still don’t know why. I’ll ask my cfii who also works as a center controller what their opinion is. By ranting against a specific word you might be convincing other less experienced pilots that they have to be very careful with ATC communications, which is pure bs.

If you have a question, ask. What specific words you use ... except the “E word” are of little importance, excluding airspace specific communication.

I will continue to use the “R word” because that’s how I feel it best represents what I want in a concise fashion without adding a sense of urgency or cold calling with an extensive initial call that will likely all need repeating.
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Ask him if there has been a directive come out recently about this and if it is National, Regional or just his Facility. Where are you, what Center?
 
This is something that has puzzled me in past thoughts and discussions ... Why not just file IFR anytime you are making a cross county trip? It's super easy to file these days and you have less to worry about as you don't need to "Maintain VFR" the whole flight. Plus you get all of the added help from ATC during the flight. To me, the benefits of filing IFR upfront far outway the Benefits of flying cross country VFR in the hopes you won't need a pop up enroute. Just my Opinion.
 
Jonny Sprague said:
This is something that has puzzled me in past thoughts and discussions ... Why not just file IFR anytime you are making a cross county trip? It's super easy to file these days and you have less to worry about as you don't need to "Maintain VFR" the whole flight. Plus you get all of the added help from ATC during the flight. To me, the benefits of filing IFR upfront far outway the Benefits of flying cross country VFR in the hopes you won't need a pop up enroute. Just my Opinion.
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Two reasons for me. VFR gives flexibility to change altitudes including below minimum IFR altitudes, circle the weird thing I spotted on the ground, go around nasty clouds without asking, etc. And ATC talks over my audiobooks which leads to me missing important plot details. The latter is the more compelling of the two. :)
 
iamtheari said:
Two reasons for me. VFR gives flexibility to change altitudes including below minimum IFR altitudes, circle the weird thing I spotted on the ground, go around nasty clouds without asking, etc. And ATC talks over my audiobooks which leads to me missing important plot details. The latter is the more compelling of the two. :)
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Lol Understandable, There is something to be said for being able to Look at something more closely. I did that on one of my PPL solo long crosscountries.
 
The constant radio chatter interrupts my music and becomes annoying to passengers (and pilot).
 
Jonny Sprague said:
This is something that has puzzled me in past thoughts and discussions ... Why not just file IFR anytime you are making a cross county trip? It's super easy to file these days and you have less to worry about as you don't need to "Maintain VFR" the whole flight. Plus you get all of the added help from ATC during the flight. To me, the benefits of filing IFR upfront far outway the Benefits of flying cross country VFR in the hopes you won't need a pop up enroute. Just my Opinion.
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That's a good point, and if I'm flying through complex airspace even if it's severe clear, I'll file IFR. I also file regularly just to keep my skills up dealing with ATC.
Sometimes I just don't want the hassle, but not too often.
 
Jonny Sprague said:
This is something that has puzzled me in past thoughts and discussions ... Why not just file IFR anytime you are making a cross county trip? It's super easy to file these days and you have less to worry about as you don't need to "Maintain VFR" the whole flight. Plus you get all of the added help from ATC during the flight. To me, the benefits of filing IFR upfront far outway the Benefits of flying cross country VFR in the hopes you won't need a pop up enroute. Just my Opinion.
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Flying IFR in certain areas can double the length of your trip.
 
iamtheari said:
YI’ve said “VFR, request” on the theory that telling ATC I am currently VFR will keep them from looking for a strip with my tail number on it. But I’ll make a point of trying just “Center, N1234B, 20 miles west of Timbuktu” to get their attention next time.
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To my ear, "IFR request" would convey that you were requesting IFR.
 
PaulS said:
I've done it once in the year since I got rated, I was asked my name and license number and phone number. I was VFR with FF but the ceiling was much lower than forecast and I would have needed to fly lower than I had planned. It was a piece of cake, and the controller kind of apologized for asking for that info, he said he needed to do a flight plan for me.
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I've never had a controller ask for that stuff. :dunno:
 
Jonny Sprague said:
This is something that has puzzled me in past thoughts and discussions ... Why not just file IFR anytime you are making a cross county trip? It's super easy to file these days and you have less to worry about as you don't need to "Maintain VFR" the whole flight. Plus you get all of the added help from ATC during the flight. To me, the benefits of filing IFR upfront far outway the Benefits of flying cross country VFR in the hopes you won't need a pop up enroute. Just my Opinion.
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If I'm departing an airport in the Sierras, beginning the flight under IFR could require a lot of unnecessary climbing, possibly into icing conditions. If the conditions are good enough to get out of the mountains VFR, it can be more efficient and sometimes safer.

My home base is in the San Francisco area, which is often IFR when the Sierras are not.
 
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Jonny Sprague said:
This is something that has puzzled me in past thoughts and discussions ... Why not just file IFR anytime you are making a cross county trip? It's super easy to file these days and you have less to worry about as you don't need to "Maintain VFR" the whole flight. Plus you get all of the added help from ATC during the flight. To me, the benefits of filing IFR upfront far outway the Benefits of flying cross country VFR in the hopes you won't need a pop up enroute. Just my Opinion.
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You could sleep much easier at night if every time you left your house you sent an email to your mother with your exact destination, your estimated time of arrival, your estimated time of return, your planned mode of transportation and your planned route along with any planned stops along the way. But there are several very good reasons why no one actually does that.
 
luvflyin said:
Ask him if there has been a directive come out recently about this and if it is National, Regional or just his Facility. Where are you, what Center?
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Salt Lake Center
 
Juliet Hotel said:
You could sleep much easier at night if every time you left your house you sent an email to your mother with your exact destination, your estimated time of arrival, your estimated time of return, your planned mode of transportation and your planned route along with any planned stops along the way. But there are several very good reasons why no one actually does that.
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Fair enough lol
 
I usually try to airfile with FSS if I need a pop up. If I’m talking to approach or departure I have asked and usually will get them to issue a pop up clearance but if I’m on with Someone like Jax, or ATL i usually go through FSS instead of tying up the frequency.
 
I always get on flight following first so they know where I'm going, what type I am, IFR capabilities, and so on. Then when I get to a point where it's pretty clear that I'm going to need it I just call up and say ... it looks like I'm going to need an IFR. Once or twice in 20 years somebody made me call flight service to file, but that's unusual.
 
s35pilot said:
I always get on flight following first so they know where I'm going, what type I am, IFR capabilities, and so on. Then when I get to a point where it's pretty clear that I'm going to need it I just call up and say ... it looks like I'm going to need an IFR. Once or twice in 20 years somebody made me call flight service to file, but that's unusual.
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This. If you start out with FF then it is usually no big deal when you ask for clearance to get below a layer to get to your destination airport. At least that is my experience.

I just tell them in plain English, "XXX Approach can I get a clearance to get below this deck to my destination"? In NE Texas, it seems to be called a "local IFR clearance" - at least that is what ATC seems to refer to it as. You get it, get below the deck, cancel the IFR clearance, and continue your descent to your destination.

In reality, this probably should happen more often than it does. It is usually kind of hard to stay legal VFR and find a real "legal" hole to get down through in alot of cases. 2,000' is alot of space when you think about it.
 
iamtheari said:
I normally file IFR start to finish or I fly VFR. But I have recently had two flights that I started out VFR and needed a pop-up clearance: one to get through a thin layer to VFR below and one for a full approach into my destination. Both times, I felt like Minneapolis Center was skeptical about what I was doing.

The exchange basically started with me saying, “Center, N1234B, ten miles from wherever, VFR request.” When they asked my request, I responded something like, “N1234B would like an IFR clearance from present position to Timbuktu at 8,000.” In the second instance, it was “N1234B would like an IFR clearance for the RNAV 30 approach to Timbuktu.”

The first time, Center told me to contact Flight Service to file a complete flight plan and then call them back. Even Flight Service was confused by that when I radioed them. The second time, Center asked if I was IFR qualified and capable. My conclusion from this experience is that I must be asking the wrong questions when I call them up in the first place.

For those who get pop-up clearances regularly, what is your phraseology?
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"Washington center, N6462C with request..."
"(Describe flight conditions...then I would like an IFR clearance to KXYZ from my current position)"
 
s35pilot said:
I always get on flight following first so they know where I'm going, what type I am, IFR capabilities, and so on. Then when I get to a point where it's pretty clear that I'm going to need it I just call up and say ... it looks like I'm going to need an IFR. Once or twice in 20 years somebody made me call flight service to file, but that's unusual.
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In 16 years of IFR flying, I've filed with Flight Service in the air exactly once.
 
Having flown nearly every day in the same area with multiple approaches, holding requests and block of airspace for obvious instrument training, I would file IFR for the first segment to ensure a proper departure clearance and the full procedure. After that, it was either VFR or IFR depending on the actual weather.

ATC would know what my intentions were and I would keep them one step ahead of my needed procedures. If I need to stay legal while making descents and approaches and the weather went bad, I would make all my usual calls and append "request IFR" at the end to ensure we were ready and capable to continue.

When arriving into the terminal area and VFR or already canceled and weather went to hell, same thing.

"Request IFR."
 
Kritchlow said:
Flying IFR in certain areas can double the length of your trip.
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Additionally, there could be a lengthy delay on the ground before takeoff as ATC waits for the proper spacing to fit you in. This is usually the case here in Northern California. Much easier to launch VFR, then pick up IFR enroute once outside the busy metro area. Pop up IFRs inbound are no problem around here too.
 
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