Asking for Pop-up IFR Clearance

iamtheari

iamtheari

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I normally file IFR start to finish or I fly VFR. But I have recently had two flights that I started out VFR and needed a pop-up clearance: one to get through a thin layer to VFR below and one for a full approach into my destination. Both times, I felt like Minneapolis Center was skeptical about what I was doing.

The exchange basically started with me saying, “Center, N1234B, ten miles from wherever, VFR request.” When they asked my request, I responded something like, “N1234B would like an IFR clearance from present position to Timbuktu at 8,000.” In the second instance, it was “N1234B would like an IFR clearance for the RNAV 30 approach to Timbuktu.”

The first time, Center told me to contact Flight Service to file a complete flight plan and then call them back. Even Flight Service was confused by that when I radioed them. The second time, Center asked if I was IFR qualified and capable. My conclusion from this experience is that I must be asking the wrong questions when I call them up in the first place.

For those who get pop-up clearances regularly, what is your phraseology?
 
It is either something new in the ATC Handbook or a local thing. Your request was proper.

Bob
 
I have specifically requested a “pop up IFR” in past. In part could be if they are really busy. Plus they have to enter all the stuff you normally would in the system which is a tad tedious by the time I’ve gotten in the past. I wouldn’t make a habit of it but it’s there for your safety so use it!
 
iamtheari said:
The second time, Center asked if I was IFR qualified and capable. My conclusion from this experience is that I must be asking the wrong questions when I call them up in the first place.

For those who get pop-up clearances regularly, what is your phraseology?
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They always ask that question. I'd guess just to get it on tape that you claimed to be capable for CYA.

I don't see anything wrong with your phraseology. I always just clearly state I'm requesting a pop up IFR clearance to get through the layer, etc. I have seen sometimes though that ATC is either too busy or just doesn't want to take the time to enter all the information into the system, so passes you off to FSS to input the flight plan, especially if you are far from your destination.
 
Depends on which "Center" you are calling. Out east they will most often send you to Flight Service. Here in the NorthWest, they will most often accommodate you.

I just say...............(already on flight following) Center, N349ER, can I have an IFR to timbuck2?

Keep it short and sweet. Remember they have to make a split-second decision to work you.....or not. Your first transmission can make it or break it. Sound like a pro!!!
 
iamtheari said:
The exchange basically started with me saying, “Center, N1234B, ten miles from wherever, VFR request.” When they asked my request, I responded something like, “N1234B would like an IFR clearance from present position to Timbuktu at 8,000.” In the second instance, it was “N1234B would like an IFR clearance for the RNAV 30 approach to Timbuktu.”

The first time, Center told me to contact Flight Service to file a complete flight plan and then call them back. Even Flight Service was confused by that when I radioed them. The second time, Center asked if I was IFR qualified and capable. My conclusion from this experience is that I must be asking the wrong questions when I call them up in the first place.

For those who get pop-up clearances regularly, what is your phraseology?
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I don’t get them regularly because like you, I file IFR when traveling. Nothing wrong with the way you did it but short, simple and pro-sounding helps a lot.

I’d drop the “VFR Request” and replace with “Request”.

If I’m asking for a pop up to say, penetrate a layer at 9K to get below say 7k, I would just ask for a clearance to my destination, “Center, we’re going to need a clearance to get below this layer for landing at RDU”.

They are always going to ask whether you are qualified and capable - you can beat them to it or at least be ready for it.

Flying VFR for a trip over 100 miles just confuses me these days.



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When I ask for a pop up, ATC usually asks if I’m capable and qualified. One time, they did get annoyed and asked why I didn’t file when there UNFORECASTED fog. Uhh, that’s the whole point of a pop up.
 
jordane93 said:
When I ask for a pop up, ATC usually asks if I’m capable and qualified. One time, they did get annoyed and asked why I didn’t file when there UNFORECASTED fog. Uhh, that’s the whole point of a pop up.
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Agreed.

But the best way to get the best of ATC services is to file IFR, even in hard VFR.


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Bill Watson said:
Agreed.

But the best way to get the best of ATC services is to file IFR, even in hard VFR.


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If I was flying in the Midwest when almost every IFR clearance is direct destination, I’d probably just file most of the time. If I ever hear direct destination in NY I should also play the lottery! I fly VFR every chance I can get just because the IFR routing here is so screwy.
 
iamtheari said:
The first time, Center told me to contact Flight Service to file a complete flight plan and then call them back.
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Handling a pop-up aircraft and creating and opening an IFR flight plan for it is kind of like VFR flight following - an optional task on a workload-permitting basis. I have heard it said to another airplane - once in 30 years.

The second time, Center asked if I was IFR qualified and capable. My conclusion from this experience is that I must be asking the wrong questions when I call them up in the first place.
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The language appears in the ATC handbook when a VFR aircraft is requesting a clearance due to encountering adverse weather. Like some other questions primarily intended for one situation, some controllers apply them to all. I've heard that one many times when requesting pop-ups.
For those who get pop-up clearances regularly, what is your phraseology?
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Pretty simple... "N1234X would like a pop-up IFR to..."

Haven't gotten anything negative, although there was this Florida controller I called indicating I was in a Cherokee at 8,500 and he responded in shock, "You are in a what at what altitude?"
 
jordane93 said:
If I was flying in the Midwest when almost every IFR clearance is direct destination, I’d probably just file most of the time. If I ever hear direct destination in NY I should also play the lottery! I fly VFR every chance I can get just because the IFR routing here is so screwy.
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True enough. I fly into NY from NC. The routing in is always funky with low level tours over NJ into Westchester. I’ve learned to go to Long Island for more straight forward routings in but I’ll cuss the decision if I’m headed west on the way out. Going home from Westchester generally pretty good - over JFK at 6. But often I’m brought down to 4 to get past Atlantic City (??!!). My preference is always to get to 8 or 9K for cruising... impossible around NYC!


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Bill Watson said:
True enough. I fly into NY from NC. The routing in is always funky with low level tours over NJ into Westchester. I’ve learned to go to Long Island for more straight forward routings in but I’ll cuss the decision if I’m headed west on the way out. Going home from Westchester generally pretty good - over JFK at 6. But often I’m brought down to 4 to get past Atlantic City (??!!). My preference is always to get to 8 or 9K for cruising... impossible around NYC!


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Yea it must be an airspace thing. I did a flight down to South Carolina and got cleared up to 8K only to be brought down to 4K by ACY. Once out of the airspace they let me climb back up to 8. Long Island to pretty much anywhere in PA is a pain because they’ll always route you up north to CT first then over to the west.
 
jordane93 said:
Yea it must be an airspace thing. I did a flight down to South Carolina and got cleared up to 8K only to be brought down to 4K by ACY. Once out of the airspace they let me climb back up to 8. Long Island to pretty much anywhere in PA is a pain because they’ll always route you up north to CT first then over to the west.
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Definitely an airspace thing. I've gotten that down to 4,000 too. I asked the controller about it.he wasn't sure but he thought it was because of the arrival flow into PHL.
 
midlifeflyer said:
...The language appears in the ATC handbook when a VFR aircraft is requesting a clearance due to encountering adverse weather. Like some other questions primarily intended for one situation, some controllers apply them to all. I've heard that one many times when requesting pop-ups...
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It does. Under emergency procedures. Asking @iamtheari made no sense because he had already 'requested' an IFR Clearance. But yeah, it's not unusual for Controllers to do it, even though it is inappropriate.

10−2−8. RADAR ASSISTANCE TO VFR AIRCRAFT IN WEATHER DIFFICULTY
a. If a VFR aircraft requests radar assistance when it encounters or is about to encounter IFR weather conditions, ask the pilot if he/she is qualified for and capable of conducting IFR flight.
b. If the pilot states he/she is qualified for and capable of IFR flight, request him/her to file an IFR flight plan and then issue clearance to destination airport, as appropriate.
 
PlasticCigar said:
Funny, I’ve never been asked if I’m instrument rated. On some occasions, I’ll fly VFR and realIze it would be easier to get in IFR for an approach so I’ll ask for a pop-up clearance. They’ve never given me a hard time about it. It may be that I always use flight following so they already know about me and I have a code. Usually it’s pretty straightforward:
Me: Mooney 12345, it looks like the field is reporting marginal conditions, request pop-up IFR to XYZ, type aircraft is M20P/G, request ILS 24, have information Zulu”

They usually will then give a clearance to the airport, followed by a route and IFR altitude. Nothing more to it than that.

Maybe if there’s a sense of urgency they do things differently but it’s always seemed pretty routine to me.
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And they shouldn’t ask you if you’re instrument rated and equipped in that situation. Those controllers are treating your situation as an IFR pilot operating VFR and requesting an IAP. It’s called an abbreviated IFR flight plan. A VFR who might be an emergency and is encountering or about to encounter IMC is a whole different situation that requires “the question.”

Kinda like how some controllers automatically ask if you can maintain your own terrain / obstacle clearance on a pop IFR. It may or may not be required but they ask it anyway out of habit or personal interpretation of their order.
 
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Not sure how to describe it.

But some of it is part of HOW you say it.

I can ask and get it 9.5/10 times, someone sitting right seat does the same thing and it’s like 5/10

If already on flight following
“Approach airplane 123, were running into a area of reduced viz, looking to pickup a IFR”
 
After attending an ATC seminar in So Cal where a controller said they prefer pilots from my airport (KWHP) obtain clearances in the air, I tried it. Never again. It took 25 minutes and the third transfer before they would give it to me. I was almost 1/2 way to my destination. This made a routine flight stressful and uncertain. The controllers were obviously too busy, which I understand. Maybe some sectors are willing and able in some parts of the country. But I will never take off again expecting an IFR clearance unless local pilots in a specific fare tell me it works. Nope!


iamtheari said:
I normally file IFR start to finish or I fly VFR. But I have recently had two flights that I started out VFR and needed a pop-up clearance: one to get through a thin layer to VFR below and one for a full approach into my destination. Both times, I felt like Minneapolis Center was skeptical about what I was doing.

The exchange basically started with me saying, “Center, N1234B, ten miles from wherever, VFR request.” When they asked my request, I responded something like, “N1234B would like an IFR clearance from present position to Timbuktu at 8,000.” In the second instance, it was “N1234B would like an IFR clearance for the RNAV 30 approach to Timbuktu.”

The first time, Center told me to contact Flight Service to file a complete flight plan and then call them back. Even Flight Service was confused by that when I radioed them. The second time, Center asked if I was IFR qualified and capable. My conclusion from this experience is that I must be asking the wrong questions when I call them up in the first place.

For those who get pop-up clearances regularly, what is your phraseology?
Click to expand...
 
As many above have noted, requesting a pop-up IFR clearance from Approach/Center is a reasonable thing to do. However if they say "contact FSS" or I sense they are busy... then I prepare a "Flight" in ForeFlight, nearest waypoint to destination, connect to cell (might take a few tries, but I've had this eventually work up to 12,000' MSL), and file the IFR flight plan from ForeFlight. Then I go back to Approach/Center, tell them the flight plan has been filed, and request clearance.
 
kgruber said:
Your first transmission can make it or break it. Sound like a pro!!!
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You mean I shouldn’t say “student pilot”? :)

It does sound like everyone gets a mixed bag on this, so I don’t feel as amateur as I did when it has happened to me. For what it’s worth, the controller didn’t sound busy on either of these two occasions.

eman1200 said:
just drop "request" entirely. please. you're telling them what you need.
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Good point. I’ve said “VFR, request” on the theory that telling ATC I am currently VFR will keep them from looking for a strip with my tail number on it. But I’ll make a point of trying just “Center, N1234B, 20 miles west of Timbuktu” to get their attention next time.
 
Nothing wrong with requesting a popup IFR, but to be kind to everyone, you should allow some time and space to get into the system, especially if airspace is busy. If you know in advance that the weather at the destination may go MVFR or IFR, then you should file the trip IFR instead of hoping for a last minute popup. For long trips I usually file IFR anyway, especially if the destination is in busy airspace. Even in good VFR conditions, there is a significant chance that one might not be able to easily descend from cruise altitude in visual conditions. The last time I requested a last-minute popup, I was accommodated by Approach, but it took them a few minutes to work me in around IFR arrivals and departures. Best to just do it from the start, then there is no problem getting into the system.
 
I've done it once in the year since I got rated, I was asked my name and license number and phone number. I was VFR with FF but the ceiling was much lower than forecast and I would have needed to fly lower than I had planned. It was a piece of cake, and the controller kind of apologized for asking for that info, he said he needed to do a flight plan for me.
 
PaulS said:
I've done it once in the year since I got rated, I was asked my name and license number and phone number. I was VFR with FF but the ceiling was much lower than forecast and I would have needed to fly lower than I had planned. It was a piece of cake, and the controller kind of apologized for asking for that info, he said he needed to do a flight plan for me.
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Wow, now I really don’t feel so weird. Even flight services didn’t need my license or phone number.
 
PaulS said:
I've done it once in the year since I got rated, I was asked my name and license number and phone number. I was VFR with FF but the ceiling was much lower than forecast and I would have needed to fly lower than I had planned. It was a piece of cake, and the controller kind of apologized for asking for that info, he said he needed to do a flight plan for me.
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Only things they were “filing” were ID, type AC, present position, route, dest, TAS and altitude. Name, license, phone etc, were for audio recording. If you happen to go down, they can pull the tapes to assist in SAR.

None of that is even standardized though. We used to do that (minus license) at my facility but I know others who didn’t do it.
 
I’ve been asked if I’m current and to verify my phone number which I thought was odd. They seem to know everything about me, I can only assume they had ADSB information. It wasn’t very busy at the times I’ve used it.
 
Eman1200, Is the ‘request’ thing going to be your axe to grind? That thing that you segway into every possible opportunity to the point of exhaustion for the rest of us?
Just want to know.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Eman1200, Is the ‘request’ thing going to be your axe to grind? That thing that you segway into every possible opportunity to the point of exhaustion for the rest of us?
Just want to know.
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Dunno what you’re trying to say. Feel free to ignore the thread and be in your merry way.
 
In the past few years I've made the request and gotten the "Sorry, I don't have time to take all of your SAR info, contact Flight Service and give me a call back." I've also gotten a pop-up just like I always used to but it seems something has changed. Now ATC doesn't seem to accept a flight plan without ALL of your info including a phone number which is a burden for a controller to accept over the air. Kinda sucks because the pop-up is a useful life-saving tool when necessary. Leidos already has my name, phone number, email address and Garmin inReach tracking number all loaded so that when I say my tail number, they know who I am. One would hope ATC could tap into that database but.... yeah right.
 
eman1200 said:
Dunno what you’re trying to say. Feel free to ignore the thread and be in your merry way.
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Really. You have an entire thread devoted to ranting about using the word ‘request’ in FF. Your thoughts have already been noted. That is what I am trying to say.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Really. You have an entire thread devoted to ranting about using the word ‘request’ in FF. Your thoughts have already been noted. That is what I am trying to say.
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Oh I’m sorry, am I not allowed to post a thread or have an opinion? I don’t recall seeing a rule where everyone else gets to open a thread except me. My sincere apologies for apparently having ruined your day. I can understand how much of an inconvenience it can be to skip a thread that you aren’t interested in. My bad. I’ll do my best not to get in the way of your and dik hollidays infinite wisdom that you grace this board with.
 
Aug 3rd, 1981..............everything changed with ATC. Ronald Regan fired 11,000 seasoned controllers.

Before that time you could get a popup ANYWHERE, ANYTIME.

ATC never did recover, and today we fly with restrictive rules set up to relieve junior controllers.
 
Your request was reasonable and fairly common. If they weren't busy, they were just being snarky b---es. Humans = petty. you know, standard.

One thing that facilitates the transitions if they're being a baby about it, is to be on FF before arriving at their terminal space. The transition to an IFR target should be fairly seamless for them at that point if you need the standard quick letdown through IMC, common of MVFR life.
 
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benyflyguy said:
I have specifically requested a “pop up IFR” in past.
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Its been years now but one of the few times I've done that, the controller had no idea what I was asking and claimed to have never heard of the term. I told them I was VFR and was 20 miles from my home airport which had just gone IFR due to low clouds rolling in off the ocean. I said I didn't have a flight plan on file but would like to get an IFR clearance to shoot an approach into the field so I wouldn't have to land at another airport and find a ride home. The controller then oh ok no problem, gave me a squawk and cleared me for the approach from right where I was.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Its been years now but one of the few times I've done that, the controller had no idea what I was asking and claimed to have never heard of the term. I told them I was VFR and was 20 miles from my home airport which had just gone IFR due to low clouds rolling in off the ocean. I said I didn't have a flight plan on file but would like to get an IFR clearance to shoot an approach into the field so I wouldn't have to land at another airport and find a ride home. The controller then oh ok no problem, gave me a squawk and cleared me for the approach from right where I was.
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OTOH, I have never had one refused nor had a controller not understand what one was.
 
luvflyin said:
@PaulS , @MooneyDriver78 , @Daniel Katz ? Where do you guys fly? I’m wondering if this is some regional thing.
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This was Portland approach, Maine. It wasn't a big deal, it took me all of 15 seconds, plus I spelled my last name for him using the phonetic alphabet. It was much easier than dialing up flight service, which if he had asked I would have told him to forget it, circled a couple times to make sure I was good with obstacles and just flown lower.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
I don’t think it’s a regional thing, I think it’s about ADSB coverage. Here in the southeast we have good coverage. I vaguely remember they would ask for aircraft type just for FF, I can’t remember the last time they did.
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I'm a renter, so they had the adsb info, but it probably did them no good.

I did wonder if they were checking to see if I was rated, but that's not really my problem.
 
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