Asking FBO maintenance Questions

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evapilotaz

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The Airplane I have been renting was down for Maintenance and I was unable to fly it on my scheduled day. All I was told that the airplane was "not airworthy" and no ETA when it could be rented again. As a frequent renter I think it would be ok to ask maintenance questions of any of their airplanes. Is it out of line to ask to review maintenance logs for any of their airplanes? Being told an airplane was not airworthy kind of making me nervous to fly it again when it becomes airworthy again without knowing the real reason.
 
"not airworthy" can be anything from a paperwork snafu to grounded until a required inspection is completed to a bad compression test. Whoever it was that said "not airworthy" to a regular customer might need a little training on customer service and student pilot training.

I found a broken door hinge on preflight one day (school 172). I declined the aircraft with visions of door departing and removing half the horizontal stabilizer and all the elevator. It was back on the line in a couple days with a new hinge and nice shiny rivets. Airworthy again? youbetcha

And it is legit to look at aircraft logs both as training/fam and to ensure the airworthiness of the subject collection of aluminum parts. At any rate you'll have to have the logs available for a check ride.
 
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I agree. Not good customer service. They could have been more apologetic about the inconvenience. I understand things happen with airplanes at any given moment that could ground them but at least explain it a little more.
 
evapilotaz said:
I agree. Not good customer service. They could have been more apologetic about the inconvenience. I understand things happen with airplanes at any given moment that could ground them but at least explain it a little more.
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Personally, an apology is pointless. An explanation of the problem and the expected timeline to repair (even if it is unknown) would be customary. Add in an offer to have a look at things as a point of training would be a plus.
 
It wouldn't have been an inconvenience if there was an alternate C172 airplane available. Anyway, is it out of line to review their aircraft maintenance records at any given time? As a active renter I don't think so.
 
I've always had maintenance personnel at my primary flight school be more than happy to tell me what was wrong with any given aircraft, and often short descriptions of maintenance issues were posted right in our scheduling system. Over time I got to know their quirks pretty well too.

I'd be pretty suspicious if a mechanic didn't want to tell me why an aircraft was grounded!
 
evapilotaz said:
It wouldn't have been an inconvenience if there was an alternate C172 airplane available. Anyway, is it out of line to review their aircraft maintenance records at any given time? As a active renter I don't think so.
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As the operator of the aircraft, it is your responsibility to ensure the aircraft is airworthy. I wouldn't rent from an FBO that refuses to allow me to see the logs. Worth point---"see". I wouldn't expect them to let you take the logs out of their view.
 
evapilotaz said:
It wouldn't have been an inconvenience if there was an alternate C172 airplane available. Anyway, is it out of line to review their aircraft maintenance records at any given time? As a active renter I don't think so.
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Quite the opposite. The PIC is the determiner of the airworthiness of the airplane. If a place didn't have accessible airplane logbooks, how are you supposed to make that determination?
 
Lets take the 100 hour maintenance requirements for this airplane for an example because its a rental. If its past 100 hours and haven't gone through maintenance is it deemed not airworthy? I would have to review the logs to make sure this maintenance was performed because I'm the PIC and I determined if the aircraft is airworthy.

Again the airplane was grounded for unknown reasons to me. How would I know its airworthy without seeing the logs. I just take the FBO Dispatchers word for it?
 
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evapilotaz said:
Lets take the 100 hour maintenance requirements for this airplane for an example because its a rental. If its past 100 hours and haven't gone through maintenance is it deemed not airworthy? I would have to review the logs to make sure this maintenance was performed because I'm the PIC and I determined if the aircraft is airworthy.

Again the airplane was grounded for unknown reasons to me. How would I know its airworthy without seeing the logs. I just take the FBO Dispatchers word for it?
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If you review 91.409(b) you'll see that it is perfectly legal to rent and fly an airplane that has flown more than 100 hours since the last inspection. You just can't do flight training in it with a CFI or carry any paying passengers. You'd be fine to fly yourself on a PPL with non-paying passengers like family or friends.
 
Jim Logajan said:
If you review 91.409(b) you'll see that it is perfectly legal to rent and fly an airplane that has flown more than 100 hours since the last inspection. You just can't do flight training in it with a CFI or carry any paying passengers. You'd be fine to fly yourself on a PPL with non-paying passengers like family or friends.
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OK, what if its out of annual?
 
The 100-hour one is tricky. There are also potential ADs which trigger on the 100-hour mark which render the plane un-airworthy if not complied with and don't get the buffer time the 100-hour inspection gets.

One fun point: just because it's a rental or instruction is performed doesn't mean it needs a 100-hour inspection.
 
Brad Z said:
As the operator of the aircraft, it is your responsibility to ensure the aircraft is airworthy. I wouldn't rent from an FBO that refuses to allow me to see the logs. Worth point---"see". I wouldn't expect them to let you take the logs out of their view.
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I just looked at the Practical Test Standard for private, commercial, instrument, and multiengine. Each contains an applicant's checklist, and each such checklist includes maintenance records.

When I was a DE I sent more than one applicant back to his flight school to get the aircraft and engine logs (no "hers" made this mistake).

Bob Gardner
 
Agreed. The regulatory climate has changed since I was a student years ago when you just grabbed the keys and flew. If I don't get to see the logs before I take the plane, I can't take it. As Bob, says, anyplace that is following the rules needs the student to have the logs on checkrides and the student better know how to find the annual, etc... entries.

Even on my instrument ride, it was one of the ground questions...
 
Where I rent, any of the members can get the logs and check them out for any length of time. I had my oral exam at a different airport and also got delayed, so had them in my possession for five days. I assume they have copies......
 
Thanks for the Replies everyone. The next time I'm at this FBO I will ask what grounded this particular airplane and post here. I'm sure you are all wondering now. ;)
 
Sam D said:
OK, what if its out of annual?
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That wouldn't seem to change the state of airworthiness per 91.7.
But it couldn't be flown because of 91.409(a).
Of course if one includes the legal paperwork as part of what makes an aircraft airworthy then being out of annual would make it unairworthy. I think a narrower definition as indicated by 91.7 is more useful.
 
The FAA definition of airworthiness has two phases: in compliance with it's type certificate, STC, or other approved modifications AND in condition for safe operation. Technically paperwork doesn't affect airworthiness, it just makes the plane illegal to fly. Of course, most people equate airworthy with legal, so it's quite possible that's what the FBO meant.

A non-complied AD would make it unairworthy. Removal of some essential part can also make it unairworthy.
 
flyingron said:
The FAA definition of airworthiness has two phases: in compliance with it's type certificate, STC, or other approved modifications AND in condition for safe operation. Technically paperwork doesn't affect airworthiness, it just makes the plane illegal to fly. Of course, most people equate airworthy with legal, so it's quite possible that's what the FBO meant.
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By regulation, compliance with all those things you mentioned includes recordation of those actions in the aircraft's maintenance records, so yes, if the paperwork isn't done, the aircraft is legally unairworthy.
 
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