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gsfan23

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gsfan23
Hey,
I live in the Nashville area and have been playing with the idea of buying a Piper Arrow or similar as opposed to renting C172s and PA-28s all the time. Price is going up. I currently fly out of BNA. Does anyone know of a CFI in the Nashville area that uses a Arrow? I can't find any anymore that has one. I sorta wanted to get my complex while seeing if an Arrow was really what I wanted. I know until I fly it I never know. Thanks.
 
I've never flow in an arrow, but from what I've been told, it's basically a cherokee. It cruises faster with the gear retracted, but everything else is pretty much the same in the pattern once you drop the gear.
 
rbridges said:
but everything else is pretty much the same in the pattern once you drop the gear.
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Not exactly.

In the air, it behaves very much like any other PA28. Once you drop the gear, it is a bit different. The Arrow gear creates an amazing amount of drag compared to the much more streamlined fixed gear. A fixed gear PA28 glides MUCH better than a PA28R with the gear down. Also, in the Arrow, the nose will feel a bit heavier than a Warrior. Not a difficult airplane to transition to, but don't expect it to be as simple as a PA28 that goes faster.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not exactly.

In the air, it behaves very much like any other PA28. Once you drop the gear, it is a bit different. The Arrow gear creates an amazing amount of drag compared to the much more streamlined fixed gear. A fixed gear PA28 glides MUCH better than a PA28R with the gear down. Also, in the Arrow, the nose will feel a bit heavier than a Warrior. Not a difficult airplane to transition to, but don't expect it to be as simple as a PA28 that goes faster.
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thanks. I was going by what a buddy of mine told me.
 
I fly into MBT pretty regularly and I always see a lot of flight training going on there. Bound to be an arrow somewhere. They have the MTSU school but I believe there are private flight schools operating as well.
 
If you want something with swinging bits and an Arrow would do your mission, a mooney would too. At 20 knots faster.
 
gsfan23 said:
Hey,
I live in the Nashville area and have been playing with the idea of buying a Piper Arrow or similar as opposed to renting C172s and PA-28s all the time. Price is going up. I currently fly out of BNA. Does anyone know of a CFI in the Nashville area that uses a Arrow? I can't find any anymore that has one. I sorta wanted to get my complex while seeing if an Arrow was really what I wanted. I know until I fly it I never know. Thanks.
Click to expand...

The Arrow would be a good aircraft for you. It has a good payload capability if you only do 25 gals in each tank. That still gives you four hours of flight time at 130kts.

I'm currently a CFI out of a flight school in southern AR. We have two PA-28R-201 Arrows with glass.

If you can get to southern AR I can give you a ride and/or your complex in our Arrow.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
Not exactly.

In the air, it behaves very much like any other PA28. Once you drop the gear, it is a bit different. The Arrow gear creates an amazing amount of drag compared to the much more streamlined fixed gear. A fixed gear PA28 glides MUCH better than a PA28R with the gear down. Also, in the Arrow, the nose will feel a bit heavier than a Warrior. Not a difficult airplane to transition to, but don't expect it to be as simple as a PA28 that goes faster.
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The gear are good speed brakes if you want to lose altiude fast! :yes: I can get to a runway from roughly 5 miles and 3000'. But that is clean until the last 1/4 to 1/2 mile.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not exactly.

In the air, it behaves very much like any other PA28. Once you drop the gear, it is a bit different. The Arrow gear creates an amazing amount of drag compared to the much more streamlined fixed gear. A fixed gear PA28 glides MUCH better than a PA28R with the gear down. Also, in the Arrow, the nose will feel a bit heavier than a Warrior. Not a difficult airplane to transition to, but don't expect it to be as simple as a PA28 that goes faster.
Click to expand...

Had this argument with my CFI CFI. Guess who won that argument after an engine out demonstration. It glides just fine.
 
IMO, if you want a retract, you can do better than an Arrow. They're not bad airplanes by any means, but they're no faster than many fixed-gear planes that are just as capable. Retract example: A Mooney with the same engine will beat the Arrow by 20+ knots. Fixed-gear example: A 182 will burn more fuel, but go just as fast, haul more, and has a much more comfortable cabin.

Arrows are a popular complex trainer, I'm sure you'll be able to find one somewhere. I'm not familiar with what's available in that area, though. Good luck!
 
EdFred said:
Had this argument with my CFI CFI. Guess who won that argument after an engine out demonstration. It glides just fine.
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Didn't say it doesn't glide. I said it does not glide like a fixed gear PA28.

I've done plenty of power off 180s in both.
 
ARFlyer said:
The Arrow would be a good aircraft for you. It has a good payload capability if you only do 25 gals in each tank. That still gives you four hours of flight time at 130kts.

I'm currently a CFI out of a flight school in southern AR. We have two PA-28R-201 Arrows with glass.

If you can get to southern AR I can give you a ride and/or your complex in our Arrow.
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25 gallons a side is all our club's 1969 PA-28R-200 holds. :D

If you want speed, this is not the plane for you. Our 182 will go faster than the Arrow (not by much, and with an extra 30 hp in the nose). It's a good complex trainer. The most important factor when looking at one (other than the obvious airworthyness stuff) is the panel. You don't want one like ours. /U and the ADF is inop (and belongs in a museum, anyway). The autopilot is inop (and was nothing to brag about when it worked - again, original equipment). Oh, and before anyone asks, yes, both the ADF and autopilot are marked "inop". That ADF uses an analog tuning dial, it's that old. :D

And the stuff where people defend the glide characteristics? They aren't flying the old Hershy bar wing Arrows. Those (ours) have the glide characteristics of a safe. If you are used to the glide characteristics of a Cessna 172, get some practice in the Arrow. It is different. Significantly different.
 
gsfan23 said:
while seeing if an Arrow was really what I wanted.
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The hershey bar wing, tapered wing, and T-tail versions all fly quite differently. You may want to do some traveling and try out all three.

I think the Arrow is underrated as a personal airplane. I got 134 KTAS (four-way GPS method) at 4500' DA in a beat up PA28R-180 at 75% power, although that was probably 600 pounds under max gross.
 
dmspilot said:
I think the Arrow is underrated as a personal airplane. I got 134 KTAS (four-way GPS method) at 4500' DA in a beat up PA28R-180 at 75% power, although that was probably 600 pounds under max gross.
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I don't mind Arrows, but as far as the 200 hp complex 4 seat airplanes, I'll take a 177RG over an Arrow ANY day. Faster, more comfortable, greater payload.
 
bnt83 said:
Handles better?
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I think so, but it is probably a personal preference.

The 177RG I used to fly was more stable that either of the -200 or 201 Arrows I've flown and was very light on the controls, almost like a fighter plane in comparison.
 
Everybody keeps saying to get a Mooney but I haven't been able to find a Mooney that has the full fuel useful load that a Piper Arrow has.
 
kbrnhart said:
Everybody keeps saying to get a Mooney but I haven't been able to find a Mooney that has the full fuel useful load that a Piper Arrow has.
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The Mooney I fly has a full-fuel payload of 495 lbs.
The Arrow IV I flew has a full-fuel payload of 504 lbs.
The Arrow III I flew has a full-fuel payload of 554 lbs.
I think I've only flown an Arrow II once, and I don't have the data handy for it.
The Arrow I I flew had trouble climbing with just me aboard, so whatever gross was, I wouldn't want to be there.

So, the full-fuel payloads are comparable. With the extra speed and efficiency of the Mooney, you need less fuel to get to your destination, and you can trade that for weight more easily as a result. Advantage, Mooney.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not a difficult airplane to transition to, but don't expect it to be as simple as a PA28 that goes faster.
Click to expand...
Being as inept as I am, it took me more than 3 hours to get a sign-off (and Complex) in PA-28R-200. The difference in speed meant that I had to hustle ahead of the airplane. You say that its gear creates a lot of drag, but I found it impossible to dive at runways as I did in Cherokee: I always was too high and too fast in Arrow, so I had to learn much flatter 3 degree approaches when transitioning. Only much later I found how to ride the back of power curve with higher AoA in Arrow. So the transition may be challenging depending on piloting ability. Of course now that I have 50 hours in Arrow, I would rather zoom around in Arrow, except that I don't because rentals are more expensive per mile.
 
zaitcev said:
You say that its gear creates a lot of drag, but I found it impossible to dive at runways as I did in Cherokee: I always was too high and too fast in Arrow
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Interesting. Was that with power at idle?

My experience with the two doing Power-off 180s is that in the Arrow, if I didn't immediately turn toward the runway when I was abeam the numbers, I would end up short/not make the runway without adding power.

In the Warrior, I could continue on the downwind, establish a nice descent whistle a tune and when the runway was about 45 degrees abaft the wing, I'd turn base and still be well setup to glide to the numbers and possibly still need a bit of a slip to put it down on the intended point.
 
kbrnhart said:
Everybody keeps saying to get a Mooney but I haven't been able to find a Mooney that has the full fuel useful load that a Piper Arrow has.
Click to expand...

1993 M20J - loaded with plenty of avionics
Garmin GTN 750
King dual nav/com w gs - King ADF
Dual Axis King autopilot/flight director
King HSI
Stormscope

586lbs payload with full fuel (64gallons)

670lbs payload at tabs (50gal)

Flight plan 150kts at 11gph. 50 gal is plenty at that fuel burn
 
dell30rb said:
1993 M20J - loaded with plenty of avionics
Garmin GTN 750
King dual nav/com w gs - King ADF
Dual Axis King autopilot/flight director
King HSI
Stormscope

586lbs payload with full fuel (64gallons)

670lbs payload at tabs (50gal)

Flight plan 150kts at 11gph. 50 gal is plenty at that fuel burn
Click to expand...

So, in that case the Mooney has a *better* useful load than either of the Arrows I've got the data for, AND it goes faster on less fuel. Win, win, win!
 
Guess I am not looking at the same data you are looking at. Browsing the internet for online weight and balance calculators I see the gross weight for an ArrowII is 2650 and the empty weights vary from 1550 to 1660. Subtract 300lbs for 50 gallon of fuel and I come up with 690 lbs. What am I missing?
 
kbrnhart said:
Guess I am not looking at the same data you are looking at. Browsing the internet for online weight and balance calculators I see the gross weight for an ArrowII is 2650 and the empty weights vary from 1550 to 1660. Subtract 300lbs for 50 gallon of fuel and I come up with 690 lbs. What am I missing?
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Where are you getting the empty weights from? Most of the "standard" empty weights you see are nothing more than a dream these days... The birds have all gotten heavier over time with upgrades and such.

Or maybe the Arrow II was lighter... Wouldn't be the first time. Also, the later Arrows carry 72 gallons of fuel instead of 50.

50 gallons in an Arrow will get you about 520nm. 50 gallons in an M20J will get you about 100 miles farther. 50 gallons in the M20R will get you as far as the Arrow, but it'll get you there an hour faster.
 
I just googled piper arrow ii useful load and clicked on the first one that came up and the empty weight was 1661. Other ones that came up were in the 1550 to 1700 ball park.

I am not knocking the Mooney. I'm just looking to buy a future family hauler for under $65000 that can haul 700 lbs of payload and the Arrow II was the closest I could find that was economical to fly.
 
Ghery said:
25 gallons a side is all our club's 1969 PA-28R-200 holds. :D

If you want speed, this is not the plane for you. Our 182 will go faster than the Arrow (not by much, and with an extra 30 hp in the nose). It's a good complex trainer. The most important factor when looking at one (other than the obvious airworthyness stuff) is the panel. You don't want one like ours. /U and the ADF is inop (and belongs in a museum, anyway). The autopilot is inop (and was nothing to brag about when it worked - again, original equipment). Oh, and before anyone asks, yes, both the ADF and autopilot are marked "inop". That ADF uses an analog tuning dial, it's that old. :D

And the stuff where people defend the glide characteristics? They aren't flying the old Hershy bar wing Arrows. Those (ours) have the glide characteristics of a safe. If you are used to the glide characteristics of a Cessna 172, get some practice in the Arrow. It is different. Significantly different.
Click to expand...

Our Arrows have the extra large tanks for a max load of 72 gals. I have only flown the aircraft once at 72 gals and it handled like the Titanic. I think my climb rate was somewhere around 300' per min.

Fearless is correct about the power off 180s. As soon as I pull the power abeam my point I have to turn in.

Zaitcev- I have always found that if you don't hold that higher AOA with power the Arrow tends to speed up on short final. But the good thing is once you pull the power it's landing whether you want it or not. So making your point is simpler to me then in our Maules.

The only thing I would caution you on with the Arrow is that it's hard to start cold. Our Arrows have to be preheated in the winter for at least 20mins or they refuse to fire. Once you try to get it to fire twice, you might as well quit for the near future. You will either flood it, kill the battery or burn up the starter.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Where are you getting the empty weights from? Most of the "standard" empty weights you see are nothing more than a dream these days... The birds have all gotten heavier over time with upgrades and such.

Or maybe the Arrow II was lighter... Wouldn't be the first time. Also, the later Arrows carry 72 gallons of fuel instead of 50.

50 gallons in an Arrow will get you about 520nm. 50 gallons in an M20J will get you about 100 miles farther. 50 gallons in the M20R will get you as far as the Arrow, but it'll get you there an hour faster.
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50 gallons in my M20J will get me almost 800 miles.
 
Arrows are valuable mostly as as a complex trainer, for students working on a commercial certificate.

I don't see why anyone would want one for any reason other than training.

It will be costly to own because of the insurance and MX on the retractable gear. I'd prefer a 182, which might still have a better cost of ownership, even with its greater fuel burn.
 
Of course weight and balance varies for all aircraft based upon instrumentation installed and all other various options. The Arrow II with the Hershey Bar wing has a gross of 2650 where the Arrow III with the semi tapered laminar flow wing has a gross weight of 2750.

I have the latter of those two aircraft and the empty weight of my Arrow is 1746.7# leaving a total useable weight of ( we will round ) 1000#.

Of course as stated before 50 gallons of fuel (tabs) would reduce the useable to 700# and full fuel of 72 gallons would reduce the useable to 568#

I knew the Arrow wasn't a speed demon when I purchased it but felt it was the best airplane for my level of experience. I do however file for 130 kts and it consistently gives me 137 kts IAS and 140 kts CAS. There is a comment about the high speed at which you can lower the gear ( 129 kts ) being more indicative of how slow the Arrow is rather than the versatility.

The comments about the gear slowing it down however are very true. I can typically enter the pattern at 20" and 2400 rpm pop the gear and be at about 100 kts by the time I am ready to drop the first notch of flaps. Drop the power back to 17" and grab the second notch of flaps will get me 85 kts. On final the third notch and reduce to about 13" of power slows it to 75 kts. Coming across the fence pull the power back and the prop acts like a big old air brake slowing me to landing speed.

Very docile and no surprises.

Looked hard at the Mooneys and without going into details, it just wasn't a good fit. Mooney is a great plane so nothing bad to say about it other than it doesn't fit me. I liken a Mooney to a Corvette, great car but I am not comfortable in it. I am comfortable in my Arrow and flying is has become second nature.

I actually still have a POH for the Arrow II at home and will be happy to look up any data for it but the major differences is in the gross weight and the 50 vs 72 gallons of fuel.
 
kbrnhart said:
I just googled piper arrow ii useful load and clicked on the first one that came up and the empty weight was 1661. Other ones that came up were in the 1550 to 1700 ball park.

I am not knocking the Mooney. I'm just looking to buy a future family hauler for under $65000 that can haul 700 lbs of payload and the Arrow II was the closest I could find that was economical to fly.
Click to expand...

I have an Arrow II and I think it is a capable airplane for the money. I think of it as the F-150 pickup of airplanes. Get the Arrow II or better to have the 5" extra legroom in the back. My usable load is at about 1000# and I get 140 kt or better at 8.5 gph at 9000' or so. Mine has every speed mod except the LoPresti cowl.
 
NoHeat said:
Arrows are valuable mostly as as a complex trainer, for students working on a commercial certificate.

I don't see why anyone would want one for any reason other than training.

It will be costly to own because of the insurance and MX on the retractable gear. I'd prefer a 182, which might still have a better cost of ownership, even with its greater fuel burn.
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See, I don't get the increased insurance cost thing. My mooney is $1300/yr (first year of ownership) for 115k hull. My 172 was $590/yr the second year I owned it (and $900 the first) for 55k hull.

$1300 a year is way less than my car insurance - my annual this year is going to be about 2k. I'm doing some other stuff, but for airworthiness it is 2k. That is WITH replacing all the rubber pucks in the main landing gear.

The idea that RG is ridiculously more expensive than FG is a myth.
 
Oh, and the insurance on my Arrow is $1100 whats yours?

Opps must have posted at the same time David.
 
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kbrnhart said:
I just googled piper arrow ii useful load and clicked on the first one that came up and the empty weight was 1661. Other ones that came up were in the 1550 to 1700 ball park.

I am not knocking the Mooney. I'm just looking to buy a future family hauler for under $65000 that can haul 700 lbs of payload and the Arrow II was the closest I could find that was economical to fly.
Click to expand...

unless you get one of the longer mooneys (F,G,J or later), you won't be able to do much with the back seats. I have a C model, and it's tight in the back.
 
rbridges said:
unless you get one of the longer mooneys (F,G,J or later), you won't be able to do much with the back seats. I have a C model, and it's tight in the back.
Click to expand...

Yup. I flew my Arrow II to the 2012 LSA Expo at KSEF with (4) full-sized American males in the airplane and no-one complained about room.
 
rbridges said:
unless you get one of the longer mooneys (F,G,J or later), you won't be able to do much with the back seats. I have a C model, and it's tight in the back.
Click to expand...

Even the J is a touch tight in the back seat. I had a couple of models with legs that went on for ages flying with me a couple times - Whoever had to sit in the back was an unhappy camper because her legs were so long she couldnt really stretch out at all. That was with my seat all the way up. I've decided that it's probably not the best idea to try and date girls taller than me.
 
DavidWhite said:
See, I don't get the increased insurance cost thing. My mooney is $1300/yr (first year of ownership) for 115k hull. /QUOTE]

All I know is that our club pays much more to insure its Arrow than its other planes. If it weren't for needing a complex trainer, we wouldn't want to pay for it. We also pay more for the MX for the Arrow -- it seems that almost every year there's a squawk about the gear not coming up, or the gear-in-transition light remaining on when it shouldn't, or some such problem.

So you're paying 1.1% of hull? That does sound good.
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It's quite possible that it's because it is being rented. I've never dealt with that side of insurance but friends who have say it is way more expensive.
 
gsfan23 said:
Hey,
I live in the Nashville area and have been playing with the idea of buying a Piper Arrow or similar as opposed to renting C172s and PA-28s all the time. Price is going up. I currently fly out of BNA. Does anyone know of a CFI in the Nashville area that uses a Arrow? I can't find any anymore that has one. I sorta wanted to get my complex while seeing if an Arrow was really what I wanted. I know until I fly it I never know. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Just this from a Google:

http://www.wingsmqy.com/

Also, ask at any school; they may have access to an Arrow.
 
DavidWhite said:
I wouldn't rent from any place that requires you to get 10 hours dual in their airplane.
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That is normal SOP to rent a complex airplane when you have no other complex time and would otherwise not qualify to rent the airplane. It is not a bad deal and that is what I did when I got my complex in an Arrow.
 
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