Arrow Training

alfadog said:
That is normal SOP to rent a complex airplane when you have no other complex time and would otherwise not qualify to rent the airplane. It is not a bad deal and that is what I did when I got my complex in an Arrow.
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That's $2,000 before you can take it for trips solo or with your family.

Now, if you are going to evaluate the airplane for your mission, I guess it wouldn't be a big deal.
 
DavidWhite said:
That's $2,000 before you can take it for trips solo or with your family.

Now, if you are going to evaluate the airplane for your mission, I guess it wouldn't be a big deal.
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What I did was get the complex (what, five hours?) and use the rest of the dual for IR work. If you have something like that going on, you are only out a small increment over a C172 rental and you are gaining experience.
 
Thanks for all the help. I didn't know MQY got an arrow. I hadn't looked at Wings in a while. I was looking for a little dent in my wallet as possible, but not many arrows around here at flight shools. I looked at the mooney, but the inital cost of what I am looking for is a little on the high side. Although, I am not against going up and flying anything.
 
gsfan23 said:
Thanks for all the help. I didn't know MQY got an arrow. I hadn't looked at Wings in a while. I was looking for a little dent in my wallet as possible, but not many arrows around here at flight shools. I looked at the mooney, but the inital cost of what I am looking for is a little on the high side. Although, I am not against going up and flying anything.
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Google is your friend, LOL. Anyway at $155, they are at the right price assuming they are in range on CFII rates. And the Garmin 530 is a nice bonus.
 
Having boo coo hours in both Arrow III's, (Turbo Arrow) and Arrow II's, fuel capacity aside, I actually prefer the Arrow II with the straight wing. The Arrow II definately drops faster than a III but both sink quite fast when you drop the gear. I fly very different patterns in an Arrow vs. a 172. A Cherokee 140 is somewhere in between.
 
EdFred said:
Had this argument with my CFI CFI. Guess who won that argument after an engine out demonstration. It glides just fine.
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I did my Commercial ride in an Arrow, the DPE pulled the power, I tripped into a thermal and started circling and climbing.

"if this keeps up we might get enough altitude to make it to that runway 3miles away, if not, we'll use that dry lake over there."

The DPE grumbled something about smartass glider pilots. :wink2:
 
If you don't like what you find at MQY (and I hope you do, as it's a lot closer) there's an Arrow at M01 in Memphis. It flies a lot. I plan to do my complex training in it eventually.
 
BillTIZ said:
I did my Commercial ride in an Arrow, the DPE pulled the power, I tripped into a thermal and started circling and climbing.

"if this keeps up we might get enough altitude to make it to that runway 3miles away, if not, we'll use that dry lake over there."

The DPE grumbled something about smartass glider pilots. :wink2:
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I love it!

Must have been a heck of a thermal to make a lead brick of a plane gain altitude, though.
 
NoHeat said:
I love it!

Must have been a heck of a thermal to make a lead brick of a plane gain altitude, though.
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Seriously, the only way mine is doing that is if I fly over a volcano.
 
NoHeat said:
I love it!

Must have been a heck of a thermal to make a lead brick of a plane gain altitude, though.
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I've gotten that Maule you saw at Gaston's to climb in a thermal before. :eek: That's more of a brick then the Arrows. However, I had the help of a 2000 hour glider pilot/my CFI-I and a strong thermal. It was kinda fun doing a 60* bank climbing turns.

That was also the flight were we flew the Maule back by only shifting our weight. :lol:
 
Buy a Piper Archer 180 and rent an Arrow for the small amount of time you need one to check a certain box in your logbook.

If you want a faster retract plane that is more rewarding to fly in terms of pilot involvement and less to maintain, get a Mooney J model. Preferably a 1982+ model with the folding/removable back seats. Plus most Mooney's I've seen have an HSI. Most Arrows I've seen have a gazillion hours on them and are beat up.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Interesting. Was that with power at idle?

My experience with the two doing Power-off 180s is that in the Arrow, if I didn't immediately turn toward the runway when I was abeam the numbers, I would end up short/not make the runway without adding power.

In the Warrior, I could continue on the downwind, establish a nice descent whistle a tune and when the runway was about 45 degrees abaft the wing, I'd turn base and still be well setup to glide to the numbers and possibly still need a bit of a slip to put it down on the intended point.
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Same story in our 1969 Arrow. Pull the power abeam the numbers and you had better turn for the runway NOW. Drop the gear on short final. Otherwise, you're landing in the weeds.

rbridges said:
unless you get one of the longer mooneys (F,G,J or later), you won't be able to do much with the back seats. I have a C model, and it's tight in the back.
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Arrow 1 - I have never, repeat, never had anyone in the back seat. No legroom. For me it is a two place airplane with plenty of cargo space.

DavidWhite said:
I wouldn't rent from any place that requires you to get 10 hours dual in their airplane.
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alfadog said:
That is normal SOP to rent a complex airplane when you have no other complex time and would otherwise not qualify to rent the airplane. It is not a bad deal and that is what I did when I got my complex in an Arrow.
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Insurance rules for our club say that if you have no time in type you need 100 hours TT and 10 hours dual before solo. Coincidentally, I hit both numbers at the same time back in 2002 when I got my Complex endorsement. Once that is satisfied, 3 hours in 180 days or get an instructor signoff and fly again within 45 days. I try to keep that clock from running out. Easier than guarding light switches and throttle in the pattern from wayward CFIs. :D
 
MSPAviator said:
Buy a Piper Archer 180 and rent an Arrow for the small amount of time you need one to check a certain box in your logbook.

If you want a faster retract plane that is more rewarding to fly in terms of pilot involvement and less to maintain, get a Mooney J model. Preferably a 1982+ model with the folding/removable back seats. Plus most Mooney's I've seen have an HSI. Most Arrows I've seen have a gazillion hours on them and are beat up.
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Most rental arrows have "a gazillion hours" but there are enough mid-time examples out there for sale. The M20J costs notably more and is more a competitor to the Turbo Arrow.
 
dmspilot said:
Most rental arrows have "a gazillion hours" but there are enough mid-time examples out there for sale. The M20J costs notably more and is more a competitor to the Turbo Arrow.
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Yes, you can find a decent Arrow II that was not a flight school dog for $40k while the M20J is what, around $75k with standard panel and comparable hours (say 4000/1500).
 
kbrnhart said:
I just googled piper arrow ii useful load and clicked on the first one that came up and the empty weight was 1661. Other ones that came up were in the 1550 to 1700 ball park.

I am not knocking the Mooney. I'm just looking to buy a future family hauler for under $65000 that can haul 700 lbs of payload and the Arrow II was the closest I could find that was economical to fly.
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You might also consider a Cardinal RG. Pretty similar performance and its a high wing with huge doors.
 
alfadog said:
Yes, you can find a decent Arrow II that was not a flight school dog for $40k
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It can be tough though....the few times I considered Arrows, all that was for sale was trainers with 8000+ TTAF. I am sure you can find the good ones if you are serious, but a quick glance at controller.com and T-A-P showed me it was not an easy task.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It can be tough though....the few times I considered Arrows, all that was for sale was trainers with 8000+ TTAF. I am sure you can find the good ones if you are serious, but a quick glance at controller.com and T-A-P showed me it was not an easy task.
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I like ASO better. Here is one that is even lower time than I expected:

Arrow II
 
I have never been fortunate enough to fly an Arrow but I have 800 hrs in a Cherokee (same body as the Early Arrows). So I expect that I would absolutely love it.

I think however you can perhaps get a better deal buying a 180hp Comanche and perhaps a few more pounds useful load, few more knots its close but I think that the maintenance on a Comanche might be a bit more than the Arrow.

The Insurance is about the same once you have time in craft.
I have seen plenty that sell for under $30k.... occasionally with IFR Gps and even auto pilot.

I have always heard that Comanche 180 is way under powered until I flew one from West coast to NYC and our true airspeed was consistently 153 knots. Granted it had some speed mods but it climbed to 11,500' easily at gw and flew very nicely on about 8 gph.

I remember thinking I bought too much airplane with the Turbo Comanche after that trip. I was really impressed.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
If I bought a mooney J I'd have to leave half of me home as the seat is not wide enough. Maybe if I strattled the console like a go cart I could do it.
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
ONLY in the back? LOL!
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The Mooney has more leg room than the Comanche, just a tad more head room (pretty close tho), and less width.

I'm 6'4" and 300# and I fit in the Mooneys quite well. Al Mooney was 6'5" and built himself an airplane. It's plenty of room for most people.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
The Mooney has more leg room than the Comanche, just a tad more head room (pretty close tho), and less width.

I'm 6'4" and 300# and I fit in the Mooneys quite well. Al Mooney was 6'5" and built himself an airplane. It's plenty of room for most people.
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6' 0" and 300# does not work.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Well, the Mooney definitely works better for those with, uh, a higher aspect ratio. ;)
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My friend Av is maybe 155 lbs....doesn't like the mooney as it is very closed in, cramped too small for him. He does not have aspect challenges. Mooney is a great plane, If I were a thin guy I would probably put up with the sitting on a box car feeling and have one but it is just not for everyone.

A 180 Comanche will keep up with most 180 hp mooneys.

Not only the width of the cockpit but where the console is really crowds your legs if you are a larger person.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
A 180 Comanche will keep up with most 180 hp mooneys.
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But my 200hp Mooney will outpace a 260hp Commanche!

The Mooney is definitely bigger inside once you get in than my 172, but getting in is the problem.
 
DavidWhite said:
But my 200hp Mooney will outpace a 260hp Commanche!

The Mooney is definitely bigger inside once you get in than my 172, but getting in is the problem.
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260 B or C with the tiger cowl will do about 160 knots with 6 seats....pretty nice little planes. I hear the lopresti or LFS cowl's add 20 knots...but they lighten your pocketbook about $26 k as well.

What speed/settings is that you can outpace a 260? I have a buddy with a J but he doesn't claim to do more than 160 knots.
 
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
260 B or C with the tiger cowl will do about 160 knots with 6 seats....pretty nice little planes. I hear the lopresti or LFS cowl's add 20 knots...but they lighten your pocketbook about $26 k as well.

What speed/settings is that you can outpace a 260? I have a buddy with a J but he doesn't claim to do more than 160 knots.
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I thought most were 150 knot birds. I do 160 knots on about 10gph.
 
I actually did a little searching on some Mooneys that are for sale. Some of the older ones are within my max price range, I was actually surprised. ARE THE OLDER Mooneys comparable in speed and economy as the newer ones? I'm talking about late '60s to '70s range. Is insurance less costly? I wish I knew some people in the Nashville area that owned some to try my hand. I guess I never really know until I try it.
 
gsfan23 said:
I actually did a little searching on some Mooneys that are for sale. Some of the older ones are within my max price range, I was actually surprised. ARE THE OLDER Mooneys comparable in speed and economy as the newer ones? I'm talking about late '60s to '70s range. Is insurance less costly? I wish I knew some people in the Nashville area that owned some to try my hand. I guess I never really know until I try it.
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Some of the earlier Mooneys will have speed mods installed so saying how fast they are to newer ones is difficult. If you are serious about knowing the differences you can go over to mooneyspace.com and discuss it with the older Mooney owners. There is a thread going on now comparing speeds and you can begin to see the differences (not as much as you would think).


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DavidWhite said:
I thought most were 150 knot birds. I do 160 knots on about 10gph.
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Then you are in a dead heat with a 6 pax 260 B or C. I think for the comfort I will gladly spend the extra fuel for the Comanche or take the 180 hp Comanche with less useful and go a bit slower.

In college we packed 11 people into a VW Bug but these days that doesn't seem as appealing as it once was. As you get older you will understand. :)
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
My friend Av is maybe 155 lbs....doesn't like the mooney as it is very closed in, cramped too small for him. He does not have aspect challenges. Mooney is a great plane, If I were a thin guy I would probably put up with the sitting on a box car feeling and have one but it is just not for everyone.

Not only the width of the cockpit but where the console is really crowds your legs if you are a larger person.
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Whaaaaa??? Like I said, I'm 6'4" and 300#. The Mooney is one of the most comfortable planes I've ever flown. The only way I can see someone thinking it's "cramped" is if they're on the short side and have to move the seat way forward, as they'll be closer to the panel than they would be in other airplanes. (There are rudder pedal extensions available for those of shorter stature, though.)
 
gsfan23 said:
I actually did a little searching on some Mooneys that are for sale. Some of the older ones are within my max price range, I was actually surprised. ARE THE OLDER Mooneys comparable in speed and economy as the newer ones? I'm talking about late '60s to '70s range. Is insurance less costly? I wish I knew some people in the Nashville area that owned some to try my hand. I guess I never really know until I try it.
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depends on what you mean. The C and G models are quick but use a 180HP carbureted motor. The E and F models are a little faster since they have a 200HP fuel injected motor. When you get to the J models, you have the 200HP motor, but slicker windshields and cowlings were added. There are other differences, too, but that's the biggest as far as HP. Once you get past the J's, you get into turbocharged and 6 cylinder planes. As someone else mentioned, a lot of the vintage mooneys have had the windshield swaps performed for a little extra speed.

The C and E models are the shorter mooneys. Extra length was added to the F, G and J models, so they are easier on the rear passengers.
 
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