are there any hidden gems out there in the experimental market anymore?

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peevee

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Sonex

Glasair fixed gear TW

Vari-eze
 
Bearing in mind that "Gems" and "cheap" are typically mutually exclusive terms, what's your budget? Although it's certainly possible to luck into a great deal, best not to base a purchase strategy on hope.
 
RV-4 is a hell of a bang for the buck, so is the Avid Catalina with the advantage you can store it in a trailer.
 
To me the Thorp T18's are the next best thing to an RV, but at a small fraction of the price. They are a lot of bang for the buck and they are fairly easy to find. I have flown in some T18's that out performed some of the RV's I've been in.
 
peevee said:
the sonex looks pretty interesting but needs more HP for me and hot and high operations, maybe once they get the VW turbo system to market.

Don't know anything about the vari-eze, or really canards in general. I've always lusted for a cozy or velocity though
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Tandem won't work ?? WTF.. there goes the speed.

Long-EZ is your answer. but good ones aren't cheap.
 
peevee said:
Mountain flying, 2 people, cross countries. Would like 150kts or better but that's not a must. Well it kinda is. An rv4 can be had on the cheap but tandem isn't going to work. I ruled out a long ez for that and comfort. I don't have a tailwheel end. Either so buying a dragger is a little intimidating too.
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There is an RV6 for $39k on Barnstormers. ;)

Tail wheel flying is great fun.
 
MickYoumans said:
To me the Thorp T18's are the next best thing to an RV, but at a small fraction of the price. They are a lot of bang for the buck and they are fairly easy to find. I have flown in some T18's that out performed some of the RV's I've been in.
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:yes: apparently.

$25K

$29K

$34K

How are these to maintain? Certificated airships freak me out with some of the MX expenses.
 
LandSickness said:
:yes: apparently.

$25K

$29K

$34K

How are these to maintain? Certificated airships freak me out with some of the MX expenses.
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Don't worry, you won't miss out on any fun expenses by going experimental, in fact, you'll be able to do so much it should only cost you twice as much.:lol:
 
Watch for a good RV6. Best bang for the buck in a side by side that will travel at 180+ mph, aerobatic, and you canwork on it yourself. Parts are cheap. ;)
 
LandSickness said:
How are these to maintain? Certificated airships freak me out with some of the MX expenses.
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Engine parts cost the same no matter what you put them on. You may or may not be able to save on labor depending on your capabilities.

For a T-18,the main gear, cowl, canopy, and wingtips are the primary "store bought" airframe parts. Nearly everything else can be fabricated from sheet / extrusion / tubing... Depends on your capabilities. But, in general, how often to you really replace airframe parts?

Avionics - depends on what is installed and what you "need".

Paint you can DIY or farm out. Time or money.

Avoid constant speed props to reduce cost. It already has fixed gear. O-290 or O-320 will get decent performance. O-360 is overkill and burns more fuel.

You will have to pay an A&P for the annual condition inspection.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Engine parts cost the same no matter what you put them on. You may or may not be able to save on labor depending on your capabilities.

For a T-18,the main gear, cowl, canopy, and wingtips are the primary "store bought" airframe parts. Nearly everything else can be fabricated from sheet / extrusion / tubing... Depends on your capabilities. But, in general, how often to you really replace airframe parts?

Avionics - depends on what is installed and what you "need".

Paint you can DIY or farm out. Time or money.

Avoid constant speed props to reduce cost. It already has fixed gear. O-290 or O-320 will get decent performance. O-360 is overkill and burns more fuel.

You will have to pay an A&P for the annual condition inspection.
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So is the T-18 not a certificated airplane?

I'm thinking about being bound to certificated parts while your local auto parts dealer or hardware store sells the exact same parts in some cases for 1/10th of the cost. I've read some pretty frightening stuff.
 
LandSickness said:
So is the T-18 not a certificated airplane?

I'm thinking about being bound to certificated parts while your local auto parts dealer or hardware store sells the exact same parts in some cases for 1/10th of the cost. I've read some pretty frightening stuff.
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Alternator and starter motor you can get from the auto parts store or take to the auto electric rebuilder down the street regardless if it's certified or experimental, read up on "owner produced parts". Everything else on an aircraft engine you will not find at the auto parts store down the street.
 
Just get a Midget Mustang. From another thread we've learned it will cruise at 300 knots, and if you turbo it then you will see 400 knots!

Make sure to install a mach meter! :rolleyes:


:rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
LandSickness said:
So is the T-18 not a certificated airplane?

I'm thinking about being bound to certificated parts while your local auto parts dealer or hardware store sells the exact same parts in some cases for 1/10th of the cost. I've read some pretty frightening stuff.
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The Thorp T-18 is certificated as Experimental Amateur built.
 
peevee said:
the panels are awfully small on the t-18, that's about the only negative I can come up with, if you find one with folding wings it'll fit in your garage! Though I'm unsure how you would drain the tanks after each flight, I bet that's a hassle.
They're half the cost of a cheap RV-6a, I think I'd rather the rv6 but for twice as much? Probably not.

Owning certified is just not going to be a possibility for me, even a quarter share the maintenance costs are just too high to justify :mad2:
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How much less do you imagine the maintenance costs on an experimental are going to be?
 
peevee said:
Considering I can do most anything I want except the annual condition inspection? Quite a bit, especially if I want to make changes to the panel.
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show me.
 
peevee said:
Considering I can do most anything I want except the annual condition inspection? Quite a bit, especially if I want to make changes to the panel.
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You can do pretty much the same on a certified aircraft, you just get an A&P to sign off your work. Panel stuff will be "same same" shortly with the provisions we will see in the GA revitalization Act that was signed today, in fact you'll be able to move small singles into a Non Commercial category and treat them basically the same as any experimental.

Most all the parts you will end up buying will be the same parts at the same price. My concern here is that you are grossly over estimating the cost to maintain a certified aircraft and grossly underestimating the cost to maintain an experimental.

Jesse, who runs this board, recently completed a bunch of maintenance on his Fly Baby, ask him how much he saved.
 
peevee said:
show me where that is required before returning to service.

Perhaps. And we'll see how that affects the wiz bang electronics that aren't TSO'd like dynon. So by your logic it'll become even less expensive to buy parts and without paying for labour that only assists me.

Nevertheless, if I wanted to be talked out of the experimental category I'd start a thread with the title "HEY TELL ME NOT TO BUY ANYTHING BUT CERTIFIED AIRPLANES" not asking for help choosing one...
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Well, the thing about helping you chose an experimental is to find out why you want an experimental as they are not all created equal, and even more disconcerting is no two experimentals are built equal. If the reason ou want an experimental is because you "couldn't afford the maintenance even with a couple of partners", the real answer to the title question is a simple "no" with the provision of the 2 seat "fat ultralights". Those are the only 2 seat craft that I can think of that you can buy and operate for less than cost of a Cessna 150.
 
Henning said:
Well, the thing about helping you chose an experimental is to find out why you want an experimental as they are not all created equal, and even more disconcerting is no two experimentals are built equal. If the reason ou want an experimental is because you "couldn't afford the maintenance even with a couple of partners", the real answer to the title question is a simple "no" with the provision of the 2 seat "fat ultralights". Those are the only 2 seat craft that I can think of that you can buy and operate for less than cost of a Cessna 150.
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Nobody is saying they are created the same, and I think several very affordable and often overlooked homebuilts have been mentioned despite the background noise.
 
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peevee said:
Nobody is saying they are created the same, and I think several very affordable and often overlooked homebuilts have been mentioned despite the background noise.
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Yes, you can get a T-18 or Mustang 2 or even RV-6, however that will not change the fact that if you can't afford to maintain a 172 that you will not be able to maintain any of those either because the costs of maintenance are not significantly disparate.

In order to get significantly lower operating/Maint costs, you need to be looking at 2stroke powered stuff, personally I would be looking at a Quicksilver MX2 on amphibs.
 
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Henning said:
Alternator and starter motor ... or take to the auto electric rebuilder down the street regardless if it's certified or experimental....
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Some auto electric builders won't work on them if they know it's on an airplane. I had one specifically tell me NOT to tell him what it was from.

Since then, I use "off road vehicle" a lot.

Ron Wanttaja
 
peevee said:
Really? You're still on about this? So you're seriously telling me a 50 year old spam can will need no more in repairs and maintenance than a 10 year old experimental? Go talk to a guy that just spent 12k to reseal his mooney fuel tanks.

Where is the certified equivalent of the RV6 in climb, cruise, and economy? Better yet a longEZ?

Do you wonder why certified aircraft values appear to be dropping faster than homebuilt?

Maybe worry less about my personal finances and more about the topic of discussion, or see your way out.
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:popcorn:
 
peevee said:
Really? You're still on about this? So you're seriously telling me a 50 year old spam can will need no more in repairs and maintenance than a 10 year old experimental? Go talk to a guy that just spent 12k to reseal his mooney fuel tanks.

Where is the certified equivalent of the RV6 in climb, cruise, and economy? Better yet a longEZ?

Do you wonder why certified aircraft values appear to be dropping faster than homebuilt?

Maybe worry less about my personal finances and more about the topic of discussion, or see your way out.
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Sigh... Now you're changing the issue and adding condition variables. If performance is the issue, then yes, choose experimental by all mean. You were the one who brought your finances into the thread, I was just pointing out that your reasoning of I can't afford the maintenance on a certified aircraft, therefore I must get an experimental because I can afford the maintenance on one of those is a fallacy.

If you don't like to think about things that aren't all pretty and rosy, fine, I will exit this thread with a kindly "go **** yourself too".
 
peevee said:
Either so buying a dragger is a little intimidating too.
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Come on, it's just money. And repairing experimentals is way cheaper. Last time I crashed mine, it was $800 :)

Problem tho', you're way too cheap if a good RV is out of your reach, IMHO. I was in the same boat for a while, looked at Sonex for the same reason. Everything else was crazy like KR-2, obsolete like Sonerai. Mustang II, bah. The only non-Sonex that I could afford was an S-6 Coyote with a 582 engine. Thanks, but no thanks (love me a decent S-6 though).

It's come so bad that I almost bought a 150. These things are 2x cheaper than RANSen, 4x cheaper than RVs nowadays! For just a little more money you can get a 150/150 or even a Sparrowhawk. So you have to depart a bit early in the morning in the summer, you just learn to deal with it, as a pennance for being poor. The only problem with 150 is, it's heavy as all get out and its fuel tank is tiny.

Actually, come to think about it, Sonex's is small too, especially when 120 hp Jab sucks from it. Its amazing speed is a bit of a consolation, but owners I talked about complained about the need to stop all the time on XCs. Need to call ahead, know all self-serve in 800 nm radius.

Seriously, think well about a taildragger and get something like Pacer. I think I saw the light on that.
 
"I was just pointing out that your reasoning of I can't afford the maintenance on a certified aircraft, therefore I must get an experimental because I can afford the maintenance on one of those is a fallacy."

Au contraire Mon Frere!
You're usually pretty accurate but you are way off base here. I commiserate with certified guys all the time when they tell me about their multi thousand dollar annuals and the ridiculous price of parts. Yes engine parts don't vary much but the labor sure does. I don't have to beg an A&P to sign off on every little thing I do without breaking the bank. My tires cost $30 apiece. My autopilot cost me $900 used, put it in myself. Friends have messed their planes (experimentals) up in landing accidents and had them back in the air in a few months for a few thousand $. Much, much cheaper unless you pay someone to do everything and don't shop for parts. With certified you have no choice. Oh, and I've never paid more than $500 for what you call an annual......:yes:

PS: A buddy rebuilding a C150 almost choked on a fitting for the defroster hose end at over $125 used! Made one for about .50 in materials and an hour of fabrication. He'll be switching over to homebuilt soon.
 
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Goofy said:
PS: A buddy rebuilding a C150 almost choked on a fitting for the defroster hose end at over $125 used! Made one for about .50 in materials and an hour of fabrication. He'll be switching over to homebuilt soon.
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There is nothing prohibited about an owner making a part for their plane regardless the plane.
 
peevee said:
Really? You're still on about this? So you're seriously telling me a 50 year old spam can will need no more in repairs and maintenance than a 10 year old experimental? Go talk to a guy that just spent 12k to reseal his mooney fuel tanks.

Where is the certified equivalent of the RV6 in climb, cruise, and economy? Better yet a longEZ?

Do you wonder why certified aircraft values appear to be dropping faster than homebuilt?

Maybe worry less about my personal finances and more about the topic of discussion, or see your way out.
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If you can't afford a "spam can" with partners you will have to go really cheap to manage an EAB, find an A&P willing to work with you on supervised maintenance and parts become your only real difference. FWIW my average annual is probably in the $500 range, including the year I threw a new set of mags (same kind you find on most EABs) at it.

I think I'll stick to buying the best plane for the job and let its certification status come second
 
I have a pretty low budget operation - about as cheap as you can get with a little rag and tube LSA taildragger. I figure I spend about $1000 - $2000 per year on various parts (Rotax parts ain't cheap) for not many hours flown.

Big ticket items were a used transponder, stainless muffler / tubing (from Rotax) to fabricate a new exhaust system. Little stuff that adds up - dope, brakes/bearings/bushings, A/N hardware, fuel lines (J.C.Whitney), fire sleeve, radiator (fabricated a new mount for not much cash), ELT batteries, oil filters, etc. And any time I order even just a few odds and ends from Aircraft Spruce it runs into three digits.

I probably could have saved some by finding a non-Rotax sourced radiator and exhaust components but I felt more comfortable using the "real" stuff.

The only labor paid for are the condition inspection (and he just does an inspection) and transponder checks.

Exhaust system ready to weld:

SAM_0735.JPG


New radiator / mount (I don't like having it mounted to the engine - changing that is on my list of things to do):

GEDC0821.JPG
 
peevee said:
can't and won't are two different things folks.
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True words used were "too high to justify"

But if 1/4 of a ~$1500-2000 annual maintenance bill is "just too high" sole ownership of an EAB will be "just to high" as well.
 
Skylane81E said:
True words used were "too high to justify"

But if 1/4 of a ~$1500-2000 annual maintenance bill is "just too high" sole ownership of an EAB will be "just to high" as well.
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It's MUCH more than 2k a year, it's more like 2k a partner per year, including the hangar. Considering it's a slow, clunky 182, it's WAY too high to justify. There's a fairly nice viking on barnstormers for something like 24k with a mid-high time engine, if it didn't drink so much damn gas I'd really consider it. Nice paint, newish fabric, pretty nice looking airplane.
 
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peevee said:
It's MUCH more than 2k a year, it's more like 2k a partner per year, including the hangar.
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That's a good number. Fixed costs of hangar, annual, repairs, and insurance for the Mooney have been very consistent at $12k/yr. So four ways you'd be in for $3k. Now, add gas and fly!
 
peevee said:
It's MUCH more than 2k a year, it's more like 2k a partner per year, including the hangar. Considering it's a slow, clunky 182, it's WAY too high to justify. There's a fairly nice viking on barnstormers for something like 24k with a mid-high time engine, if it didn't drink so much damn gas I'd really consider it. Nice paint, newish fabric, pretty nice looking airplane.
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All in sure, but you will pay the same to store and similar to insure an EAB. So if you are 8k/yr into a spam can you will be >7k into your equivalent EAB.


Get it if you want one, but just kid yourself, it's still an airplane.
 
Jesus christ guys I didn't ask for opinions on what it costs to care and feed a homebuilt, I asked for suggestions on some of the lesser known models out there. If I haven't been clear, I don't give 2 ****s what you think about experimentals. Get off it already. About 3 people have actually tried to have a decent discussion and the rest are just here to blabber on about their own factpinions.
 
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Get a hot air balloon. If you want experimental go clusterballooning.
 
peevee said:
Jesus christ guys I didn't ask for opinions on what it costs to care and feed a homebuilt, I asked for suggestions on some of the lesser known models out there. If I haven't been clear, I don't give 2 ****s what you think about experimentals. Get off it already. About 3 people have actually tried to have a decent discussion and the rest are just here to blabber on about their own factpinions.
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The POA signal to noise ratio WRT experimental aircraft is often unbearably high. Get used to it.

What's your wife got against tandem seating? Mine was initially opposed to it, too, on the false basis that there's less "togetherness".

After test flying an RV-8 (she's a pilot, too) she discovered that there was really no substantive difference, so long as you have a good intercom. You can still hold hands, if you want -- it's just over your shoulder. :)

Get her a ride in a -4 or an -8. The -4 is relatively cheap, and the control harmony and overall efficiency/performance will surely please you. You'll never look back at a certificated spam can again.
 
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