Approaching the end of the road

Gilbert Buettner

Gilbert Buettner

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Gil
I am a healthy 79, second class medical, with more than 3,500 hours as a CFI. Close to 8,000 total hours. Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award for more than 50 years without an incident, accident or violation. But Wednesday my flight training facility informed me that the insurance company will not cover me after December 31st because I will turn 80 next year.

So, at the end of December, I will be out of a job. It has been the perfect retirement job for me for 14 and a half years. I have enjoyed it and have flown with hundreds of different students and certificated pilots over the last 23 years.

Of course, I can continue as an independent CFI, and I will as long as I am able to get the medical. I have personal liability insurance for flying non-owned airplanes. The wrinkle is that the local airport manager (my current boss) says I can't do any flight reviews or independent instruction at our local airport because the FBO has the exclusive right to provide instruction, and I am not an "approved vendor." He said he would notify the city attorney if he sees me giving instruction.

I no longer own an airplane (though I do have access to one and can stay current), so future work will be with folks who have their own planes and are willing to meet me at another airport. I don't need the income, but I did hope to go out on my terms, not being forced out by an insurance company.
 
Might be worth a chat with the city attorney to find out exactly what “exclusive right to provide instruction” and “approved vendor” mean, and/or how they apply to an instructor who’s not based at the airport.

And, unfortunately, the “chat” may have to be between your attorney and the city attorney.

Regardless of that, sorry to hear this is happening.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
Of course, I can continue as an independent CFI, and I will as long as I am able to get the medical
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If it helps, all you need is BasicMed unless insurance will cover you without an FAA medical.

Sorry about the airport policy. That may bear looking into if it’s worth it to you.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
The wrinkle is that the local airport manager (my current boss) says I can't do any flight reviews or independent instruction at our local airport because the FBO has the exclusive right to provide instruction, and I am not an "approved vendor." He said he would notify the city attorney if he sees me giving instruction.
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I am very curious what a sharp and knowledgeable attorney would say about that.
 
It’s a reality we all face with today’s insurance market.

You can always be the sage of wisdom with ground school.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
The wrinkle is that the local airport manager (my current boss) says I can't do any flight reviews or independent instruction at our local airport because the FBO has the exclusive right to provide instruction, and I am not an "approved vendor." He said he would notify the city attorney if he sees me giving instruction.
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That is some real BS. I could see there being an issue if you were trying to set up a full fledged flight school, but giving independent instruction? I can't see how they could ban that, and to threaten you like that is disgusting.

God forbid a student learn with someone who's been around the block a couple times instead of a 19yo with 300 hours.
 
It's hard to give it up, especially when the assumptions about your cognition are unfounded and arbitrary.
 
This was discussed a while back. Maybe it will be helpful.

Independent CFI Prohibition

I've seen this prohibition at other places and it's generally ignored and/or its nothing that airport management would know about as long as ground school isn't conducted on the FBO's premises or in a pilot lounge etc. Chandler, AZ KCHD comes to mind.
 
Of course we have AOPA who has already solved all these problems (ahem), both the age-related and location-based discrimination.
 
I hate this for you. FWIW ... my AI assistant says that they cannot do what they have threatened:

"For those airports that are federally obligated, grant assurances stipulate that the opportunity to engage in commercial aeronautical activity at the airport must be available to any person, firm, or corporation that meets reasonable minimum standards. Moreover, the airport must prevent economic discrimination and the granting of an exclusive right to conduct aeronautical activities at the airport. An exclusive rights violation occurs when an airport owner prohibits others, either intentionally or unintentionally, from participating in an on-airport activity. It is important to keep in mind that it is the impact of an owner’s actions, and not the intent of the owner, that constitutes an exclusive rights violation. While an airport can deny, restrict, or limit specific aeronautical use based on safety or efficiency concerns, the FAA is the final authority in determining what constitutes a compromise of safety. Developing minimum standards and applying them uniformly helps the airport avoid exclusive rights violations and the appearance of discrimination."

From: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/co...nsportation_trans/public_notice_dtimboa42.pdf

Also quite interesting:

"It is FAA policy that the sponsor of a federally obligated airport will not grant an exclusive right for the use of the airport to any person providing, or intending to provide, aeronautical services or commodities to the public and will not, either directly or indirectly, grant or permit any person, firm, or corporation, the exclusive right at the airport to conduct aeronautical activities. The exclusive rights prohibition applies to both commercial entities engaging in providing aeronautical services and individual aeronautical users of the airport. The intent of the prohibition on exclusive rights is to promote fair competition at federally-obligated, public use airports for the benefit of aeronautical users. The exclusive rights prohibition remains in effect as long as the airport is operated as an airport, even if the original period for which an airport sponsor was obligated has expired."


Dunno if this helps ...
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
I am a healthy 79, second class medical, with more than 3,500 hours as a CFI. Close to 8,000 total hours. Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award for more than 50 years without an incident, accident or violation. But Wednesday my flight training facility informed me that the insurance company will not cover me after December 31st because I will turn 80 next year.

So, at the end of December, I will be out of a job. It has been the perfect retirement job for me for 14 and a half years. I have enjoyed it and have flown with hundreds of different students and certificated pilots over the last 23 years.

Of course, I can continue as an independent CFI, and I will as long as I am able to get the medical. I have personal liability insurance for flying non-owned airplanes. The wrinkle is that the local airport manager (my current boss) says I can't do any flight reviews or independent instruction at our local airport because the FBO has the exclusive right to provide instruction, and I am not an "approved vendor." He said he would notify the city attorney if he sees me giving instruction.

I no longer own an airplane (though I do have access to one and can stay current), so future work will be with folks who have their own planes and are willing to meet me at another airport. I don't need the income, but I did hope to go out on my terms, not being forced out by an insurance company.
Click to expand...
Boy you sparked my Energizer.. I was fixing planes (AP/IA) out of my truck. Charging a very reasonable hourly rate. Paying the city their percentage (tax) and all seemed hunky-dory until the airport manager forced me out... Guess who begs for my services now that his A&P partner passed away?
 
Walboy said:
This was discussed a while back. Maybe it will be helpful.

Independent CFI Prohibition

I've seen this prohibition at other places and it's generally ignored and/or its nothing that airport management would know about as long as ground school isn't conducted on the FBO's premises or in a pilot lounge etc. Chandler, AZ KCHD comes to mind.
Click to expand...
Yes, I participated in that thread. Lots of food for thought.
 
You don’t say if this is a private or a municipal airport. Or if they take federal funding. But generally when this topic comes up, a city or county has leased an individual or corporation exclusive rights to earn revenue from an airport operation in exchange for the city not having to hire a staff or to maintain the property grounds (although they are still responsible for the buildings and infrastructure).

The details are in the contract and in case law, not the current leaseholder’s imagination. So, the first order of business is to get a copy of the lease agreement (if that is what is going on here) and take it to an attorney for review and advice. then after you know what the agreement actually says, sit down with the city attorney to discuss the matter. Don’t go in there cold and let the city attorney tell you what the contract says, know beforehand.

And if you can discover the leaseholder has made concessions or looked the other way for other individuals making a bit of side money at the airport, mechanics or airplane detailers for instance, you might have a case regardless of what the contract says.

Generally, contracts are not as airtight as people think they are. The city may, for instance, reserve the right to make individual waivers on a case by case basis.

Of course, the easiest solution is subterfuge. Meet the student off of the property and then just show up to go flying together. Make the leaseholder go to the trouble of proving his case and then pressing it with the city attorney. Most people & cities grumble and threaten, but generally the game isn’t worth the candle of going to court.
 
With the upmost sincerity and respect, with 20 posts of support, I ask the devils advocate question. Are you, do you truly feel capable of taking command of the controls and safely landing the aircraft if something goes wrong. Be it a mechanical failure, a low time student having a panic attack and locking up with a death grip on their controls, quick response on a runway incursion.. the list goes on. I know nothing about you, but I have experienced first hand the consequences of when a loved one should have accepted that they should hang up the keys (car keys in my experience) and didn’t. It had been talked about in the family for years that she shouldn’t be driving, but I digress. So you are the only one to know if this is the case or if it truly is an insurance issue. My gut tells me if it was only the insurance the fbo would not have a problem with you independently teaching there. Again it is only my gut feeling of the brief information provided that it is out of affection and honest concern for not only your but your students saftey. The answer to what it is only you and the people close in your life who know you well can answer. I would be irate, at first, but once I cooled off I would try sitting down and having a real heart to heart conversation over a cup or two of coffee with the fbo and see. Maybe he has concerns, maybe he would agree to you being able to do check rides but not teaching completely green students? Maybe he is just a jerk and you’ve wasted an hour, but it’s usually best to keep things as simple as possible, and once you start involving more people (especially lawyers) it just seems to get far more complicated than it should need to be and nobody is happy in the end. If it goes to litigation to prove your not capable of training, they may pull your ticket completely.
Again I apologize for giving a non supportive response, and again I know nothing of you, but I feel it is also important in big decisions for there to be somebody whom argues the “other side” to bring balance, otherwise it just tends to build up emotional reactions over decisions based on reason.
 
rhkennerly said:
You don’t say if this is a private or a municipal airport. Or if they take federal funding. But generally when this topic comes up, a city or county has leased an individual or corporation exclusive rights to earn revenue from an airport operation in exchange for the city not having to hire a staff or to maintain the property grounds (although they are still responsible for the buildings and infrastructure).

The details are in the contract and in case law, not the current leaseholder’s imagination. So, the first order of business is to get a copy of the lease agreement (if that is what is going on here) and take it to an attorney for review and advice. then after you know what the agreement actually says, sit down with the city attorney to discuss the matter. Don’t go in there cold and let the city attorney tell you what the contract says, know beforehand.

And if you can discover the leaseholder has made concessions or looked the other way for other individuals making a bit of side money at the airport, mechanics or airplane detailers for instance, you might have a case regardless of what the contract says.

Generally, contracts are not as airtight as people think they are. The city may, for instance, reserve the right to make individual waivers on a case by case basis.

Of course, the easiest solution is subterfuge. Meet the student off of the property and then just show up to go flying together. Make the leaseholder go to the trouble of proving his case and then pressing it with the city attorney. Most people & cities grumble and threaten, but generally the game isn’t worth the candle of going to court.
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This is a city owed airport. They have federal funding. There have been other outside CFIs allowed to give instruction without objection in the past, so it is not a big concern. I just don't want to get in a legal argument with my long term employer.
 
rhkennerly said:
Of course, the easiest solution is subterfuge. Meet the student off of the property and then just show up to go flying together. Make the leaseholder go to the trouble of proving his case and then pressing it with the city attorney. Most people & cities grumble and threaten, but generally the game isn’t worth the candle of going to court.
Click to expand...
There are a few airports nearby, and that is what I probably will do.
 
Flatiowa said:
Are you, do you truly feel capable of taking command of the controls and safely landing the aircraft if something goes wrong. Be it a mechanical failure, a low time student having a panic attack and locking up with a death grip on their controls, quick response on a runway incursion.. the list goes on.
Click to expand...

Well, yes. There is no question, as far as I know, about my flying and instructing abilities.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
He said he would notify the city attorney if he sees me giving instruction.
Click to expand...

As a generalization, I assume that you are polite and follow rules. Consider 2 things:

-If you use the airport for 1 takeoff in route to a lesson and 1 landing for the return, WITH your student in the plane, it would be difficult to suggest that you can’t use that “port” just like any other pilot to go somewhere else to learn (T&G elsewhere, maneuvers, approaches, etc). Sure, the 1 TO and 1 LDG might be logged, and there will be preflight and debrief on the ground.

-Let the city attorney write you a letter, but until and unless that happens, teach-on. He/she will have to allege that you are doing something and that something violates some rule/law. Figure it out later. They are not going to arrest you, fine you, etc. right off the cuff. See how it goes with discretely providing instruction. Don’t let the airport manager’s threat cause you to bring more attention or ask permissions or get lawyers or write letters. Don’t ask him to put anything in writing either. Chill and fly.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
I am a healthy 79, second class medical, with more than 3,500 hours as a CFI. Close to 8,000 total hours. Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award for more than 50 years without an incident, accident or violation. But Wednesday my flight training facility informed me that the insurance company will not cover me after December 31st because I will turn 80 next year.

So, at the end of December, I will be out of a job. It has been the perfect retirement job for me for 14 and a half years. I have enjoyed it and have flown with hundreds of different students and certificated pilots over the last 23 years.

Of course, I can continue as an independent CFI, and I will as long as I am able to get the medical. I have personal liability insurance for flying non-owned airplanes. The wrinkle is that the local airport manager (my current boss) says I can't do any flight reviews or independent instruction at our local airport because the FBO has the exclusive right to provide instruction, and I am not an "approved vendor." He said he would notify the city attorney if he sees me giving instruction.

I no longer own an airplane (though I do have access to one and can stay current), so future work will be with folks who have their own planes and are willing to meet me at another airport. I don't need the income, but I did hope to go out on my terms, not being forced out by an insurance company.
Click to expand...



Surprisingly my employers insurance is still covering instructors age 80 and over. That said, I don’t plane to instruct much past age 70 except phase checks and teaching ground school. While I have enjoyed instructing since I retired at 55, I didn’t need the money nor was it what I had planned on doing with my retirement.

If you really want to keep instructing that bad, do it for free. You wouldn’t be a vendor and could tell the airport manager to have a nice day.

You might try some non-profit clubs. I believe Avemco is still covering pilots over 80 on their club policies.
 
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Flatiowa said:
With the upmost sincerity and respect, with 20 posts of support, I ask the devils advocate question. Are you, do you truly feel capable of taking command of the controls and safely landing the aircraft if something goes wrong. Be it a mechanical failure, a low time student having a panic attack and locking up with a death grip on their controls, quick response on a runway incursion.. the list goes on. I know nothing about you, but I have experienced first hand the consequences of when a loved one should have accepted that they should hang up the keys (car keys in my experience) and didn’t. It had been talked about in the family for years that she shouldn’t be driving, but I digress. So you are the only one to know if this is the case or if it truly is an insurance issue. My gut tells me if it was only the insurance the fbo would not have a problem with you independently teaching there. Again it is only my gut feeling of the brief information provided that it is out of affection and honest concern for not only your but your students saftey. The answer to what it is only you and the people close in your life who know you well can answer. I would be irate, at first, but once I cooled off I would try sitting down and having a real heart to heart conversation over a cup or two of coffee with the fbo and see. Maybe he has concerns, maybe he would agree to you being able to do check rides but not teaching completely green students? Maybe he is just a jerk and you’ve wasted an hour, but it’s usually best to keep things as simple as possible, and once you start involving more people (especially lawyers) it just seems to get far more complicated than it should need to be and nobody is happy in the end. If it goes to litigation to prove your not capable of training, they may pull your ticket completely.
Again I apologize for giving a non supportive response, and again I know nothing of you, but I feel it is also important in big decisions for there to be somebody whom argues the “other side” to bring balance, otherwise it just tends to build up emotional reactions over decisions based on reason.
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I am going to take a WAG that Gil has considered all that very carefully. I know I will when the time comes for me.

…although I’m not sure about the lawyer/litigation part. Believe it not, not everyone makes decisions with legaphobia in the forefront.
 
With all due respect to all aging pilots, the sad reality of cognitive decline is that you may not be able to tell when it’s time to hang it up. Depending on how the cognitive decline progresses you may or may not be able to tell. So be sure to have someone you trust evaluate you.

I watched this with my dad and driving. He totaled a car (fortunately no one was hurt) before he would accept it.

That said, the arbitrary nature of insurance aging you out with no appeal is frustrating.

John
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
The wrinkle is that the local airport manager (my current boss) says I can't do any flight reviews or independent instruction at our local airport because the FBO has the exclusive right to provide instruction, and I am not an "approved vendor." He said he would notify the city attorney if he sees me giving instruction.
Click to expand...
Your boss sounds like a real *******. I'd be tempted to ask an employment lawyer about sending him a letter offering to settle any potential age-discrimination claim in exchange for his agreeing to not interfere with your independent CFI business and a small severance to get you started.
 
Lindberg said:
Your boss sounds like a real *******. I'd be tempted to ask an employment lawyer about sending him a letter offering to settle any potential age-discrimination claim in exchange for his agreeing to not interfere with your independent CFI business and a small severance to get you started.
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What would be the potential age discrimination claim?
 
Lindberg said:
Terminating him because he's 80.
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He’s not terminating him because he’s 80. He’s terminating him because he can’t get insurance coverage.

The problem there isn’t with the employer, it’s with the insurance company. If losing insurance coverage was illegal age discrimination, the insurance companies would’ve been sued into oblivion by now.
 
Honestly, I'm really surprised by the manager's handling of this. Really surprised. Given what I've seen you post, you seem like the type of guy and CFI that if I was your manager, I'd try to figure out a some way to keep you working for me. Instead, yours just said "insurance won't cover you, so you're out, and don't try to sneak around behind my back."

Do you and this manager have a bad relationship? A negative history?

Because from my impressions of you, I'd try to keep you around. I'd be trying to negotiate with the insurer, see if you could maybe still teach Commercial or instrument students if not Private. Or even just do flight reviews. Or do the stage checks. Or something. And even if the insurer wouldn't budge, I'd at least ask if you'd stay around to teach ground school. And you can bet I wouldn't mind if you flew with aircraft owners on the field.

But of course, that depends on having a good relationship.
 
I agree with @RussR, but would add that maybe the manager isn’t the type of guy who thinks outside the box…or uses his brain so little that he doesn’t realize there’s a box there. I’ve worked for a few of those.
 
Lindberg said:
Because of his age. The cost of insurance can absolutely be a proxy for age discrimination.
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But not necessarily illegal discrimination. when the insurance companies are sued out of existence, we’ll know for sure.
 
RussR said:
Honestly, I'm really surprised by the manager's handling of this. Really surprised. Given what I've seen you post, you seem like the type of guy and CFI that if I was your manager, I'd try to figure out a some way to keep you working for me. Instead, yours just said "insurance won't cover you, so you're out, and don't try to sneak around behind my back."

Do you and this manager have a bad relationship? A negative history?

Because from my impressions of you, I'd try to keep you around. I'd be trying to negotiate with the insurer, see if you could maybe still teach Commercial or instrument students if not Private. Or even just do flight reviews. Or do the stage checks. Or something. And even if the insurer wouldn't budge, I'd at least ask if you'd stay around to teach ground school. And you can bet I wouldn't mind if you flew with aircraft owners on the field.

But of course, that depends on having a good relationship.
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The airport manager is his employer which he seemed to like. He's way nicer than I am.

That exclusivity part is a bunch of hogwash.

I'm not doing flight reviews. I'm flying with all of my buddies.
 
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