Approach stability while hand-flying (a C172 SP/G1000)

AlanM

AlanM

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Hi. I obtained my instrument rating about 25 yrs ago -- the days of VORs, NDBs, no GPS, no G1000, paper approach plates and charts, etc. SOMEHOW, I managed to fly a C172 and pass the IR check ride.:yes:

Now, with an iPAD mounted on the pilot side of the windshield for my approach plates and charts, and with paper as a spare, I can't trim out my C172 worth a darn and have trouble holding heading and G/S without having a few "dots" deviation on both.

Anyone out there have any suggestions. This is becoming frustrating.:dunno:
 
Need more info, but sounds like you may be over correcting.
Your scan is everything. Catch deviations as early as possible, so small corrections are all you need. Big corrections need big un-corrections when back on track, and you tend to zig-zag (both lateral and vertical).
Are you practicing with a safety pilot or a CFII?
 
Got any steam guages in it?

Maybe the G1000 is so intuitive you're over-thinking it and over correcting ....:dunno:
 
DGlaeser said:
Need more info, but sounds like you may be over correcting.
Your scan is everything. Catch deviations as early as possible, so small corrections are all you need. Big corrections need big un-corrections when back on track, and you tend to zig-zag (both lateral and vertical).
Are you practicing with a safety pilot or a CFII?
Click to expand...

Yes, practicing w/ a CFII. Thanks for YOUR tip, none from him.

BUT, is there any special technique for developing a good scan for a PFD?
 
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AlanM said:
Yes, practicing w/ a CFII. Thanks for YOUR tip, none from him.

BUT, is there any special technique for developing a good scan for a PFD?
Click to expand...

Yeah, stop scanning the dang PFD! Seriously, don't treat it like a six pack- just keep a soft focus on it and fly the plane.
 
I did my training and took my checkride behind a G1000. For me it was keeping the scan moving. Granted the info is much closer together than with a traditional 6-pack but the process is the same--it starts and ends with attitude indicator. What I was also taught was whenever I needed to perform some task was not to attempt to complete it all in one go without periodically doing an abbreviated scan. For example, for a freq change, I'd copy the new freq then take a quick glance at the attitude indicator. Then dial in the numbers take a glance. Switch to the new freq take a glance --so on and so forth. In time I was able to accomplish more and more between glances.

On the 172SP I also found it was easier to initially trim using the manual trim wheel then fine tune with the electric trim.
 
tsts4 said:
I did my training and took my checkride behind a G1000. For me it was keeping the scan moving. Granted the info is much closer together than with a traditional 6-pack but the process is the same--it starts and ends with attitude indicator. What I was also taught was whenever I needed to perform some task was not to attempt to complete it all in one go without periodically doing an abbreviated scan. For example, for a freq change, I'd copy the new freq then take a quick glance at the attitude indicator. Then dial in the numbers take a glance. Switch to the new freq take a glance --so on and so forth. In time I was able to accomplish more and more between glances.

On the 172SP I also found it was easier to initially trim using the manual trim wheel then fine tune with the electric trim.
Click to expand...

Advice sounds great -- thanks.
 
Keep a steady decent on the VSI (probably around 500fpm) and a steady heading, make small corrections and see what happens.

Take the dang tablet off your windshield too :rolleyes2:


It should be on your lap, not blocking stuff or strapped onto your yoke or stuck to windows.


Glass and six pack are all really the same thing, same info just in different places.
 
One thing I've noticed flying with a lot of pilots that are new to the G1000 is that the small deviations in altitude, heading and airspeed are drastically over corrected since you're noticing very small deviations in those figures. As a result you're hunting for a very specific number and if you deviate from it you immediately correct.
 
Maciej said:
One thing I've noticed flying with a lot of pilots that are new to the G1000 is that the small deviations in altitude, heading and airspeed are drastically over corrected since you're noticing very small deviations in those figures. As a result you're hunting for a very specific number and if you deviate from it you immediately correct.
Click to expand...

:nono:I'll stop doing that, as that has been my "goal" -- to nail each value and it's a perpetual, never-ending task. Thanks.
 
G1000 and still need Ipad (mounted to windshield) for charts - I don't get it.
 
olasek said:
G1000 and still need Ipad (mounted to windshield) for charts - I don't get it.
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The iPad is mounted to the window just forward of the door post. The REASON I need an iPAD is because the stupid owner won't cough up the dough to get a Jepp chart subscription, that's why you don't get it.:dunno:
 
AlanM said:
The iPad is mounted to the window just forward of the door post. The REASON I need an iPAD is because the stupid owner won't cough up the dough to get a Jepp chart subscription, that's why you don't get it.:dunno:
Click to expand...

Gov plates are free.
 
Fly the plane first,you may be spending too much time and concentration on the IPad,and steering away from the course inadvertently.get the plane trimmed up with a 500 ft per min rate of decent. Be careful not to over correct.
 
James331 said:
Gov plates are free.
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Yeah but Garmin still charges you some subscription fee for installing NACO charts, but still, it is ridiculous, if the owner is so stingy I wonder what else he is skimping on. I never saw anything like that among G1000 operators I am familiar with. I would take my flying somewhere else.
 
olasek said:
Yeah but Garmin still charges you some subscription fee for installing NACO charts, but still, it is ridiculous, if the owner is so stingy I wonder what else he is skimping on. I never saw anything like that among G1000 operators I am familiar with. I would take my flying somewhere else.
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Yeah, that's pretty ridiculous. If you can't afford to keep up the subscriptions on a plane you are putting on a rental line, there's serious problems with the business model; and that's what a rental line plane is, a business.
 
Neither G1000 I flew had the chart subscription so I too used my tablet for enroute and approach charts.
 
tsts4 said:
Neither G1000 I flew had the chart subscription so I too used my tablet for enroute and approach charts.
Click to expand...

The flying organization I rent from even has Cirrus owners who won't subscribe to charts. I found out about this the hard way when on a trip from Chicago to Duluth (to go to Cirrus myself for some training). The MFD database was updated, but no approach charts. Glad I had my iPAD and paper back-ups!!:mad2:
 
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AlanM said:
Hi. I obtained my instrument rating about 25 yrs ago -- the days of VORs, NDBs, no GPS, no G1000, paper approach plates and charts, etc. SOMEHOW, I managed to fly a C172 and pass the IR check ride.:yes:

Now, with an iPAD mounted on the pilot side of the windshield for my approach plates and charts, and with paper as a spare, I can't trim out my C172 worth a darn and have trouble holding heading and G/S without having a few "dots" deviation on both.

Anyone out there have any suggestions. This is becoming frustrating.:dunno:
Click to expand...

What does your 172 have in the panel? Besides the IPAD, what else is new to the panel compared to 25 years ago. I'm having the same problems, getting an IPC after 30 years off. Using a Garmin430W. There's more stuff to look at, and more things to do. Takes some of the attention away from the traditional scan
 
It's all the same stuff.

Just learn the buttonolgy on the 430 and you'll love it.

There are some free 430 simulators online.
 
James331 said:
It's all the same stuff.

Just learn the buttonolgy on the 430 and you'll love it.

There are some free 430 simulators online.
Click to expand...
I've got the simulator and it helps a lot. I'm getting there, I can stay in the safe zone but it can be a lot of work at times. Click, click, click, scan, click, click, click, scan"......................click, click, click, scan. Whew. One down, only 6 to go. Sometimes I swear the 430's primary purpose was to sell more autopilots.
 
luvflyin said:
What does your 172 have in the panel? Besides the IPAD, what else is new to the panel compared to 25 years ago. I'm having the same problems, getting an IPC after 30 years off. Using a Garmin430W. There's more stuff to look at, and more things to do. Takes some of the attention away from the traditional scan
Click to expand...

My rental C172 is an SP/G1000 equipped, so it is all glass. I'm too ingrained in using the autopilot, so if you read some of the other posts, you'll find some good tips on how to hand fly, scan and "do something" without deviating greatly from the altitude, heading and airspeed you were originally on. I guess the primary lesson that I'll apply to my next in-flight session is to parcel things out in piecemeal fashion. With the G1000, it's a little easier than with the 430 as virtually everything you need to push is on the PFD or between the PFD and MFD. Good luck w/ your IPC.
 
luvflyin said:
I've got the simulator and it helps a lot. I'm getting there, I can stay in the safe zone but it can be a lot of work at times. Click, click, click, scan, click, click, click, scan"......................click, click, click, scan. Whew. One down, only 6 to go. Sometimes I swear the 430's primary purpose was to sell more autopilots.
Click to expand...


Once you get some time behind it you will be able to do most functions without really even interrupting your scan.

I fly dual 530s for work and a 430/530 in my plane, I love em!
 
A habit I have noticed in training accelerated IFR students in "Glass" is the lack of scanning. Sometimes you have to force it in glass. I frequently see a lot of the empty "TV stare" at the screen. When using analog primary flight instruments, your peripheral vision readily picks up on needle movements that signal deviations, as opposed to registering a change of digits on the glass screen. Like I said, you have to make your self scan the individual "instrument" sections of the glass display. Once you can consistently do that, then your aircraft control should improve.
 
That's the right method. You can't just stare at it like a TV screen...you have to force yourself to scan it like a conventional PFI panel.
 
luvflyin said:
I've got the simulator and it helps a lot. I'm getting there, I can stay in the safe zone but it can be a lot of work at times. Click, click, click, scan, click, click, click, scan"......................click, click, click, scan. Whew. One down, only 6 to go. Sometimes I swear the 430's primary purpose was to sell more autopilots.
Click to expand...

The GNS interface is the worst I have come across, I liked the 480 interface much better. Garmin has a $1000 cure now with the Flighstream box that allows you to program the 430/530 with a tablet and Garmin Pilot which is the AME as the GTN interface which is the best I have used.
 
Maciej said:
One thing I've noticed flying with a lot of pilots that are new to the G1000 is that the small deviations in altitude, heading and airspeed are drastically over corrected since you're noticing very small deviations in those figures. As a result you're hunting for a very specific number and if you deviate from it you immediately correct.
Click to expand...
I suspect that this is exactly what is going on. You are probably chasing little deviations in the digital display and essentially over-correcting. Kind of like yoke-pumping in windy conditions. You feel like you need to make constant corrections, but sometimes it is best to simply let the airplane fly itself (assuming properly trimmed).
 
I am working on transitioning from steam gauges to the G1000 as well, and it's difficult at 2 hours. After all the talk about how the g1000 is cheating, I feel a bit like the village idiot. The only thing I have to add other than empathy is make sure you keep the plane trimmed. That is key regardless of instrumentation.
 
uncreative said:
I am working on transitioning from steam gauges to the G1000 as well, and it's difficult at 2 hours. After all the talk about how the g1000 is cheating, I feel a bit like the village idiot. The only thing I have to add other than empathy is make sure you keep the plane trimmed. That is key regardless of instrumentation.
Click to expand...
There is a reason that many clubs and rental outfits require G1000 transition training or special CFI signoff. It does take some time to adjust, but once you do, it makes life easier.

There is a lot more 'buttonology' to learn with glass than steam gauges.
 
uncreative said:
I am working on transitioning from steam gauges to the G1000 as well, and it's difficult at 2 hours. After all the talk about how the g1000 is cheating, I feel a bit like the village idiot. The only thing I have to add other than empathy is make sure you keep the plane trimmed. That is key regardless of instrumentation.
Click to expand...
It is amazing for IFR stuff. My primary students get way too fixated on the screens so I'll end up covering them. I think it does more bad than good for primary students. For instrument stuff it is awesome
 
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