Approach briefing question

[sferguson524]

Am getting back into IFR training soon, and had a question about briefing the the ILS 12L approach into VGT - plate for reference http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1503/06970IL12L.PDF Coming from the east, the brief would be as follows: North Las Vegas ILS 12L approach. the frequencty is 110.7 (check that it's in the radio and id'd, the FAC is 120 (set the heading bug/CDI, airport elevation is 2200'. MSA for this sector is 6700'. GS intercept will happen at KIGGE at 5220'. Missed approach is climb runway heading to 2600, climbing right turn to 250 and 6000'. Intercept LAS 310 outbound to 10DME then intercept LAS 330 inbound to the LAS VOR and hold. Am i missing anything? or have too much info

 

[Gucci Pilot]

Approach briefing is for your SA(unless you are flying professionally, then sometimes your operator has SOPs on these). Put as little or as much into it as you want.

 

[OverTQ]

There's more than one way to brief an approach.

I brief the entire plate, top to bottom, left to right. There's important stuff all over. Things in the limitations box, for instance, can be really important and potentionally relevant limitations should be verbalized.

 

[jordane93]

Each person does it differently. There isn't really a standard way. Figure out a good, concise way to brief it.

 

[Dihedral]

You covered it pretty well. How about the Decision Altitude?

 

[sferguson524]

Ah yes.. Just noticed i missed that in my brief..

 

[BigBadLou]

I would throw in the actual GS descent with the vertical profile info, as has been already pointed out. The minima are a good thing to memorize for the approach (and check against ATIS/ASOS before you set up for the approach). Also any markers are useful, especially if you can brief "we'll go around if we don't have rwy enviro in sight at blah feet when the MM should go off".
Also, it is a good idea to read and memorize the LOC MDA because if the GS goes out while you're past the FAF, you can still fly the LOC to the MDA.

A good idea is once you brief the approach (for practice), flip over the page, go make coffee and come back and now try to recall the DA/MDA and missed procedure.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

I only brief what I can remember.

I'll verify the approach, freq, and final course out loud. I'll brief the top, inbound fixes, important altitudes, DA/MDA, and the first part of the missed approach procedure.

 

[petrolero]

If you use a GPS navigator, the GPS/VLOC button is critical. I write that on the chart (in FF) if I can and brief it out loud. That's the $500 button on a check ride.

 

[James331]

Am getting back into IFR training soon, and had a question about briefing the the ILS 12L approach into VGT - plate for reference http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1503/06970IL12L.PDF Coming from the east, the brief would be as follows: North Las Vegas ILS 12L approach. the frequencty is 110.7 (check that it's in the radio and id'd, the FAC is 120 (set the heading bug/CDI, airport elevation is 2200'. MSA for this sector is 6700'. GS intercept will happen at KIGGE at 5220'. Missed approach is climb runway heading to 2600, climbing right turn to 250 and 6000'. Intercept LAS 310 outbound to 10DME then intercept LAS 330 inbound to the LAS VOR and hold. Am i missing anything? or have too much info

DA / MDA!!!!!!!!!!!!

The most important thing, if there is one part of the approach I'll say three time to be sure I have down pat that would be it.

Also if you have RA put the AGL in there too.

 

[Marauder]

Don't forget the timing. If it becomes non precision, you may want to continue on with the localizer approach and the appropriate MDA.

Some people use MARTHA.

 

[poadeleted20]

I only brief what I can remember.

I'll verify the approach, freq, and final course out loud. I'll brief the top, inbound fixes, important altitudes, DA/MDA, and the first part of the missed approach procedure.

I'm with Captain Kirk. The big thing I push in training is making sure you have these three things memorized:

• Altitude you're going to (MDA/DA)
• MAP determination (DA, time, waypoint, or DME)
• Initial move on the missed (turn direction, heading, and altitude)

...before you hit the FAF so you don't have to look down at all between the FAF and the MAP.

 

[TMetzinger]

I run through the VOLPE strip at the top (or the top of the Jepp plate if using Jepp) No later than the IAF. Then, like Ron, I reconfirm the final altitude, MAP fix, and the first target for the missed.

 

[James331]

Don't forget the timing. If it becomes non precision, you may want to continue on with the localizer approach and the appropriate MDA.

Some people use MARTHA.

NOPE.

I used to teach that before, now days if something is going screwy just go missed and figure it out at altitude.
Should something start acting stupid on my panel, no way am I getting closer to the ground, for all I know it's a problem on my end.

If I lost GS on a ILS, I'll go missed and load up the RNAV or something.

 

[Marauder]

NOPE.



I used to teach that before, now days if something is going screwy just go missed and figure it out at altitude.

Should something start acting stupid on my panel, no way am I getting closer to the ground, for all I know it's a problem on my end.



If I lost GS on a ILS, I'll go missed and load up the RNAV or something.

I guess based on your equipment, this would be appropriate. I error on the side of redundancy and will fly low approaches with both HSIs tuned to the ILS freqs on both radios as a cross check.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[sferguson524]

NOPE.

I used to teach that before, now days if something is going screwy just go missed and figure it out at altitude.
Should something start acting stupid on my panel, no way am I getting closer to the ground, for all I know it's a problem on my end.

If I lost GS on a ILS, I'll go missed and load up the RNAV or something.

My understanding with many examiners if you don't hit the timer on an ILS it's a bust

 

[tsts4]

If you use a GPS navigator, the GPS/VLOC button is critical. I write that on the chart (in FF) if I can and brief it out loud. That's the $500 button on a check ride.

That's equipment dependant. The G1000 and GTN 6XX/7XX navigators will automatically switch from GPS to LOC nav source if an ILS approach is loaded and the LOC signal is valid.

 

[RotorDude]

That's equipment dependant. The G1000 and GTN 6XX/7XX navigators will automatically switch from GPS to LOC nav source if an ILS approach is loaded and the LOC signal is valid.

On the 6xx/7xx there is one critical button click. If you are shooting an ILS, you are guided to the final approach via GPS just like an RNAV approach, but the ILS frequency is set up in the standby NAV window, not the active one. It is up to a you as pilot to click to make that frequency active. If you forget, the LOC/GS will never come in, and the GPS/LOC mode will never auto-flip.
So despite everything being fairly automated, this is one crucial manual step you don't want to forget or delay. If I were to design this software, I'd have it set up the ILS freq in the active window if you are in RNAV mode, and perhaps issue an advisory popup, to let you know this was done.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

I used to teach that before, now days if something is going screwy just go missed and figure it out at altitude.
Should something start acting stupid on my panel, no way am I getting closer to the ground, for all I know it's a problem on my end.

If I lost GS on a ILS, I'll go missed and load up the RNAV or something.

Thats what I do as well. That one time the GS will crap out and the localizer will still work, just go missed and do the GPS.

My understanding with many examiners if you don't hit the timer on an ILS it's a bust

Curious what reason they write on the disapproval form...If that happened to me, I'd definitely dispute it.

 

[BillTIZ]

You covered it pretty well. How about the Decision Altitude?

I noticed that you missed the DH.
Also brief the LOC MDA just in case the Glidepath fails.

 

[BillTIZ]

If you use a GPS navigator, the GPS/VLOC button is critical. I write that on the chart (in FF) if I can and brief it out loud. That's the $500 button on a check ride.

Garmin units that I have flown will automatically load the LOC freq and switch the VLOC at the FAF if properly loved and active. But yes, switch it early AND add it to the cross check that it happened.

 

[BillTIZ]

On the 6xx/7xx there is one critical button click. If you are shooting an ILS, you are guided to the final approach via GPS just like an RNAV approach, but the ILS frequency is set up in the standby NAV window, not the active one. It is up to a you as pilot to click to make that frequency active. If you forget, the LOC/GS will never come in, and the GPS/LOC mode will never auto-flip.
So despite everything being fairly automated, this is one crucial manual step you don't want to forget or delay. If I were to design this software, I'd have it set up the ILS freq in the active window if you are in RNAV mode, and perhaps issue an advisory popup, to let you know this was done.

Thanks !
I've flown one flight being the GTN750 and a few with Garmin 430/530. In GPS mode I thought the LOC freq was loaded in primary, but maybe I did push the freq.

 

[BillTIZ]

My understanding with many examiners if you don't hit the timer on an ILS it's a bust

Hard to do that if the LOC MAP based on DME and there is no timing provided on the chart.

 

[BillTIZ]

Am getting back into IFR training soon, and had a question about briefing the the ILS 12L approach into VGT - plate for reference http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1503/06970IL12L.PDF Coming from the east, the brief would be as follows: North Las Vegas ILS 12L approach. the frequencty is 110.7 (check that it's in the radio and id'd, the FAC is 120 (set the heading bug/CDI, airport elevation is 2200'. MSA for this sector is 6700'. GS intercept will happen at KIGGE at 5220'. Missed approach is climb runway heading to 2600, climbing right turn to 250 and 6000'. Intercept LAS 310 outbound to 10DME then intercept LAS 330 inbound to the LAS VOR and hold. Am i missing anything? or have too much info

I would make sure that tower freq is preloaded into one of the comm channels before the approach. One button push when approach clears you to tower at the FAF when you are intercepting Glidepath.

 

[Marauder]

Garmin units that I have flown will automatically load the LOC freq and switch the VLOC at the FAF if properly loved and active. But yes, switch it early AND add it to the cross check that it happened.

I have the 650 and did encounter once a tight in turn to the FAF where it didn't switch. If you are within 2 nm of the FAF, it is a manual task even if the auto convert feature is on. It is manual as well if the auto switchover feature is deactivated in the navigator.

 

[Marauder]

On the 6xx/7xx there is one critical button click. If you are shooting an ILS, you are guided to the final approach via GPS just like an RNAV approach, but the ILS frequency is set up in the standby NAV window, not the active one. It is up to a you as pilot to click to make that frequency active. If you forget, the LOC/GS will never come in, and the GPS/LOC mode will never auto-flip.

So despite everything being fairly automated, this is one crucial manual step you don't want to forget or delay. If I were to design this software, I'd have it set up the ILS freq in the active window if you are in RNAV mode, and perhaps issue an advisory popup, to let you know this was done.

I agree! If you activate the approach and are in GPS mode you certainly aren't navigating with a VOR signal at this point. Why not automatically load it?

 

[Marauder]

My understanding with many examiners if you don't hit the timer on an ILS it's a bust

That comment brought back memories. Many moons ago, the DPE administering my instrument check ride told me that point blank "Boy, you done good hitting that timer, I'd flunk you if you didn't". I thought he was joking until my CFII told me that he wasn't.

 

[James331]

Thats what I do as well. That one time the GS will crap out and the localizer will still work, just go missed and do the GPS.



Curious what reason they write on the disapproval form...If that happened to me, I'd definitely dispute it.

I'd dispute a bust on that as well

Real world IFR pilot, that's a missed all day long and twice on Sundays

 

[Marauder]

I'd dispute a bust on that as well



Real world IFR pilot, that's a missed all day long and twice on Sundays

You are making the assumption that you have the option to fly a GPS approach. My plane was /A until 2 years ago. If I was on an ILS approach and lost the GS, my only option was to fly the localizer. Or do the missed and come around for the localizer if the GS was truly OTS.

I didn't like the way the deck was stacked 25 years ago and equipped my plane with a second ILS capable radio to minimize the risk.

I'm guessing that when a DPE does a check ride in a non GPS equipped plane, their expectation is that you do convert it to a localizer approach and fly the timing.

Any DPEs on this site care to weigh in?

 

[sferguson524]

Hard to do that if the LOC MAP based on DME and there is no timing provided on the chart.

Good point, i must have missed that on the plate.. been a coupla years.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

You are making the assumption that you have the option to fly a GPS approach. My plane was /A until 2 years ago. If I was on an ILS approach and lost the GS, my only option was to fly the localizer. Or do the missed and come around for the localizer if the GS was truly OTS.

I'm guessing that when a DPE does a check ride in a non GPS equipped plane, their expectation is that you do convert it to a localizer approach and fly the timing.

I figured someone was going to say this sooner or later. If I didn't have GPS approach capability, I would still go missed and come around for the localizer. Someone could have flipped a switch in the tower(had it happen before) and pimping them on it could get it reset. Plus, I don't want to continue coming towards the ground while I'm trying to look at what my time should be and how low I can now go down to. Sure it only takes a few seconds, but that's a few seconds I don't want my head to be in my lap.

 

[poadeleted20]

NOPE.

I used to teach that before, now days if something is going screwy just go missed and figure it out at altitude.
Should something start acting stupid on my panel, no way am I getting closer to the ground, for all I know it's a problem on my end.

If I lost GS on a ILS, I'll go missed and load up the RNAV or something.

If you haven't started the timer at the FAF, absent a GPS or the like, how do you know when to start the turn for the missed? You can certainly start the climb any time you want, but without the timer running, you'd have no idea when you reached the MAP, and turning either before or after the MAP can be fatal.

 

[poadeleted20]

My understanding with many examiners if you don't hit the timer on an ILS it's a bust

In theory it could be, depending on the situation, but not usually. GS failure on an ILS is not normally injected, and absent that failure along with no other means to identify the MAP (like GPS, marker beacon, or DME, as appropriate) , you would not be in violation any of the parameters of the IR PTS. In that emergency situation, even the little blue airplane on your iPad/ForeFlight would be a reasonable backup to determine when to start the MAP turn.

 

[poadeleted20]

Garmin units that I have flown will automatically load the LOC freq and switch the VLOC at the FAF if properly loved and active. But yes, switch it early AND add it to the cross check that it happened.

This is especially critical if you drive to the GS at an intermediate altitude rather than descending to the published GS intercept altitude at the intermediate fix. By the time it switches, you may have already flown through the GS, and now you're playing catch-up ball intercepting the GS from above.

 

[Marauder]

I figured someone was going to say this sooner or later. If I didn't have GPS approach capability, I would still go missed and come around for the localizer. Someone could have flipped a switch in the tower(had it happen before) and pimping them on it could get it reset. Plus, I don't want to continue coming towards the ground while I'm trying to look at what my time should be and how low I can now go down to. Sure it only takes a few seconds, but that's a few seconds I don't want my head to be in my lap.

I was never comfortable with the potential of loss function on an approach. To mitigate that risk, I built in redundancy for the ILS by tracking a dual ILS setup in my plane. If the GS dropped on both, I had confirmation and felt comfortable proceeding as the non precision.

Now if there were other conditions specific for the localizer only approach (like a dual VOR requirement), I certainly would not continue and would do the miss to prepare for the nuances of the localizer only approach.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'd dispute a bust on that as well

Real world IFR pilot, that's a missed all day long and twice on Sundays

As I said above, that depends on whether you can properly execute the missed approach procedure after that GS failure. If you don't have an alternate means to identify the MAP (and many ILS approaches do not, in this day of decommissioned middle markers), you are hosed without the timing unless there is a DME fix for the MAP (and you have a DME, which fewer and fewer light singles do) or you have a GPS (and even today, not everyone flies with a GPS).

 

[poadeleted20]

Hard to do that if the LOC MAP based on DME and there is no timing provided on the chart.

I still teach my trainees to hit the timer at the FAF even on a LOC/DME approach -- what if the DME quits? How else would you know when to execute the missed approach turn?

 

[RotorDude]

I agree! If you activate the approach and are in GPS mode you certainly aren't navigating with a VOR signal at this point. Why not automatically load it?

Well that's two votes. Hopefully they'll get more soon and fix it. :wink2:

 

[nosehair]

Personally, I don't trust a timer for precise position, on any approach. I've done thousands over the years in training in vfr conditions and have seen easily a half mile to a mile short or overshoot in windy conditions.
On any ILS, you can definitely see from the localizer sensitivity as you approach the approach end at mda. Practice a low flyby over the runway keeping the needle centered.
It is good practice anyway, but will convince you that you can id the MAP more precisely than with "timing".
Of course, on a checkride or being trained, I will dutifully hit the timer.

 

[poadeleted20]

Personally, I don't trust a timer for precise position, on any approach.

The TERPS takes all that into account, and the protected areas for timed approaches are accordingly larger than those with precise MAP location methods. But that's no excuse for choosing not to time, because if you don't time on an ILS/LOC approach with no MM, no DME (either no receiver in your plane or no transmitter on the ground), and no GPS, you are really jammed if you lose the GS.