Apprenticeship and Pay?

[bigblockz8]

I've been a helper at the local airport for about 3 months now. Learning a lot, loving it, no complaints. However, I am not paid. Apparently a lot of people find this to be messed up. Pilots, coworkers, family, friends,etc. One aircraft owner was offering me my pay per hour for a few hours to wash and clean out his plane. When he asked how much I made, I said that I don't get paid. He advised me to stop being used and find employement elsewhere. The other apprentices prior to me were paid. I'm usally at work before half of the staff is. It's a job that's to be taken seriously regardless of pay. I ride my bike 16 miles roundtrip no matter the weather. I like the work and it's basically a free education versus going to school for it.

My question: Are apprenticeships usually paid?

On weekends I've been doing odd jobs off of craigslist to pay for books and tuition (not going to school for an A&P) but I do wonder if that's a subconcious effort to tell myself that I need a (paying) job.

On a happier note, what were some highlights if you were once an apprentice?

 

[redtail]

I've been a helper at the local airport for about 3 months now. Learning a lot, loving it, no complaints. However, I am not paid. Apparently a lot of people find this to be messed up. Pilots, coworkers, family, friends,etc. One aircraft owner was offering me my pay per hour for a few hours to wash and clean out his plane. When he asked how much I made, I said that I don't get paid. He advised me to stop being used and find employement elsewhere. The other apprentices prior to me were paid. I'm usally at work before half of the staff is. It's a job that's to be taken seriously regardless of pay. I ride my bike 16 miles roundtrip no matter the weather. I like the work and it's basically a free education versus going to school for it.

My question: Are apprenticeships usually paid?

On weekends I've been doing odd jobs off of craigslist to pay for books and tuition (not going to school for an A&P) but I do wonder if that's a subconcious effort to tell myself that I need a (paying) job.

On a happier note, what were some highlights if you were once an apprentice?

Thirty years ago, I too was a helper at the airport. I was an electrical apprentice at Newark International Airport (now Newark Liberty International Airport). I was one of two people in my high school shop class (electrical shop) chosen to participate in a new work-study program, sponsored by The Port Authority of NY&NJ. It was two days a week and we went straight to the airport instead of to the school on those days.

Like you, we were not paid. However, they did give us a few bucks (petty cash) for bus fare and lunch.

It was an excellent opportunity to get hands on experience for the trade we were learning. I worked on runway/taxiway lighting systems (4160Vac with step down transformers) including REIL, TDZ, centerline lights, edge lights, airport rotating beacon, obstruction lights, electrical work in the terminals as well as in the control tower.

Met many great pilots and even got a cockpit tour of a presidential support C-141! The crew took a picture of me in both seats.

Really enjoyed the work so much, I applied for a job just before I graduated. Two years later, they hired me and I've been with the company 27 years. I also worked at LaGuardia for a year.

Although we weren't getting "paid", I never felt like I was being used. I was still living home with my parents (didn't have to pay rent or other bills), in school and gaining valuable hands-on experience. To me, that was pay.

So the only thing I'd say is, follow your own heart and mind, not what others think you should do.

Best of luck.

Edit: I'm at work now

 

[N801BH]

Thirty years ago, I too was a helper at the airport. I was an electrical apprentice at Newark International Airport (now Newark Liberty International Airport). I was one of two people in my high school shop class (electrical shop) chosen to participate in a new work-study program, sponsored by The Port Authority of NY&NJ. It was two days a week and we went straight to the airport instead of to the school on those days.

Like you, we were not paid. However, they did give us a few bucks (petty cash) for bus fare and lunch.

It was an excellent opportunity to get hands on experience for the trade we were learning. I worked on runway/taxiway lighting systems (4160Vac with step down transformers) including REIL, TDZ, centerline lights, edge lights, airport rotating beacon, obstruction lights, electrical work in the terminals as well as in the control tower.

Met many great pilots and even got a cockpit tour of a presidential support C-141! The crew took a picture of me in both seats.

Really enjoyed the work so much, I applied for a job just before I graduated. Two years later, they hired me and I've been with the company 27 years. I also worked at LaGuardia for a year.

Although we weren't getting "paid", I never felt like I was being used. I was still living home with my parents (didn't have to pay rent or other bills), in school and gaining valuable hands-on experience. To me, that was pay.

So the only thing I'd say is, follow your own heart and mind, not what others think you should do.

Best of luck.

Edit: I'm at work now

Just to expand a bit on what Redtail wrote....

I too was in a high school " work experience" program 35 years ago.. I didn't get paid either... But , I got credit for going to that job that equaled sitting in a classroom somewhere.....

Probably the best class I ever took..

 

[jhausch]

It's really your call. If you can do it and are Ok with it, then do it. If you need to go find paid work, do it and then give them a weeks notice. If they want you to stay, they will start paying. It's really all up to you.

If that chain of events does occur, don't feel one bit of nervousness or regret for telling them that you took another job. Heck, you may even say, "I need to drop to just one half day per week because I don't want to not come by here any more. In fact, don't put me on the schedule. I will just drop by to be useful."

My only advice, the experiences you are getting now may or may not lead to a career later in life. Some jobs are just jobs to keep you fed and housed while completing other things, the only experience gained is learning to persevere. If I could talk to a younger me, I would give me that advice.

 

[TMetzinger]

The real question I have is if you are in a formal apprenticeship program? What happens if you're injured while working, for example? It's fine to work for something other than money but whatever that something is, it should be clearly understood by both parties and spelled out somewhere in writing.

 

[JHW]

the term "apprentice" implies you are learning skills that will be of use in future gainful employment. I'd guess that the term doesn't apply to most of what you can learn at an airport

 

[MSPAviator]

Son, you've got a great future ahead of you with Great Lakes Airlines.


Get paid, the end.

 

[Everskyward]

Son, you've got a great future ahead of you with Great Lakes Airlines.

A lot of people got a good start on their career with Great Lakes.

 

[wabower]

I'm struggling with your use of "apprentice" in the title and what sounds more like "hanging out and odd-jobbing" in the description. If you were my kid I'd delve into the differences, with the primary focus of "What are you learning that will be of any value down the road?"

For me, anyway, learning how the game is played and what goes on at whatever business I happen to be involved with at the time is interesting and sometimes even fun, but I've also found that "it don't take all day to look at a horseshoe" once I've figured it out. In which case the next question is "now that you know most of what you need to know about how that business works and whether any worthwhile opportunities are likely to present themselves, what's next?"

 

[w_privett]

the term "apprentice" implies you are learning skills that will be of use in future gainful employment. I'd guess that the term doesn't apply to most of what you can learn at an airport

So...when you were a teenager and decided to travel 9000 miles to take a job flying for me, how much did we start you at, again?:wink2:

 

[bbchien]

So...when you were a teenager and decided to travel 9000 miles to take a job flying for me, how much did we start you at, again?:wink2:

ROTFL....

 

[docmirror]

A formal apprentice program leads to a job in the same or similar field. So, if you are not getting paid, you are there on a learning program. If you've somewhat mastered putting fuel in a plane for the 4000th time, now you should be moving to other aspects of the airport manager program. Such as, back office books, acct, purchasing, maintenance management, selling, and dealing with the FAA on airport ops. All these things would be a formal apprentice program, so I don't think you are really an apprentice, you are a helper - and unpaid.

Ask yourself this: Is the airport/FBO earning money either directly or indirectly from your labor? If they are earning money as a result of your labor, you should be paid. If they are not earning money directly as a result of your labor then it's negotiable. My guess is they are earning some profit from your time and energy, therefore you should be earning a wage. Problem with that is, once you insist on earning your keep, the manager will get rid of you because he can't pay you less than min wage, plus your unemployment and all the other trappings of being 'employed'. So - you're screwed.

 

[N801BH]

.....? What happens if you're injured while working, for example? .

.

That is the 2.77 million dollar question... After you get that award and pay attorney fees, you will end up with 4.27 cents.. Just enough to buy a box of bandages at the dollar store..

 

[JHW]

So...when you were a teenager and decided to travel 9000 miles to take a job flying for me, how much did we start you at, again?:wink2:

As I recall, at the time I was not that interested in staring at the panel of an antique twin cessna for days on end, but it was a way to get back to a little redhead who lived in port elizabeth.

 

[wabower]

If the trap is properly baited, you'll catch them every time.

As I recall, at the time I was not that interested in staring at the panel of an antique twin cessna for days on end, but it was a way to get back to a little redhead who lived in port elizabeth.

 

[JHW]

If the trap is properly baited, you'll catch them every time.

yeah that's pretty reliable bait especially for 19 year old boys.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Teenaged unemployment is at record heights. So the opportunity cost of being in a formal apprenticeship is very low. My niece is paying $160k for an aviation management degree at a university over 4 years and has no prospects of ever passing a medical. She is now about to graduate with no prospects for a job but with the debt incurred.

Yes in an ideal world you should be paid at least minimum wage for any work you perform but there are formal apprenticeships which might not pay. If this is not a formal apprenticeship then that is another matter.

I looked into offering 6 month apprenticeships for Computer techs at my computer business and was told no way, no how. Despite private schools burdening these kids up on 5 and 6 digit debts and offering them little in way of education that is useful.

You have to weight what you gain vs what you lose by participating. I guess if I were you I would approach your manager and ask him about getting paid. I wouldn't threaten to quit or anything like that I would just see what he says. Then I would make my decision.

 

[Everskyward]

My niece is paying $160k for an aviation management degree at a university over 4 years and has no prospects of ever passing a medical.

Why does she need a medical if she's going into aviation management? There are plenty of ground-based jobs in aviation and some are easier to get and better-paying than pilot jobs.

 

[redtail]

Just to expand a bit on what Redtail wrote....

I too was in a high school " work experience" program 35 years ago.. I didn't get paid either... But , I got credit for going to that job that equaled sitting in a classroom somewhere.....

Probably the best class I ever took..

Sure did beat sitting in class five days a week with a bunch of knuckleheads that didn't really take it seriously.

What were you studying and learning in your program? Did you go into that field of work? Just curious.

 

[redtail]

The real question I have is if you are in a formal apprenticeship program? What happens if you're injured while working, for example? It's fine to work for something other than money but whatever that something is, it should be clearly understood by both parties and spelled out somewhere in writing.

Good point! We were covered under the company's insurance if anything happened and it was an official program.

 

[gismo]

It's really your call. If you can do it and are Ok with it, then do it. If you need to go find paid work, do it and then give them a weeks notice. If they want you to stay, they will start paying. It's really all up to you.

I especially agree with the "It's really your call" advice. If you like working there and feel that it's worth your time for the experience, learning, and/or entertainment don't let someone else convince you that you should hold out for money. If you feel you're being taken advantage of and can find a better opportunity elsewhere then walk.

I also like Tim's advice concerning your "employer's responsibilities to you WRT injury, liability, etc. At the very least you should enjoy some protection from any liability claims against you arising from this "apprenticeship".

 

[Henning]

I've been a helper at the local airport for about 3 months now. Learning a lot, loving it, no complaints. However, I am not paid. Apparently a lot of people find this to be messed up. Pilots, coworkers, family, friends,etc. One aircraft owner was offering me my pay per hour for a few hours to wash and clean out his plane. When he asked how much I made, I said that I don't get paid. He advised me to stop being used and find employement elsewhere. The other apprentices prior to me were paid. I'm usally at work before half of the staff is. It's a job that's to be taken seriously regardless of pay. I ride my bike 16 miles roundtrip no matter the weather. I like the work and it's basically a free education versus going to school for it.

My question: Are apprenticeships usually paid?

On weekends I've been doing odd jobs off of craigslist to pay for books and tuition (not going to school for an A&P) but I do wonder if that's a subconcious effort to tell myself that I need a (paying) job.

On a happier note, what were some highlights if you were once an apprentice?

Yes, apprenticeships are paid, typically between minimum wage and journeyman pay, they also pay for your school classes that you take at the same time. In Aus my apprentice shipwrights were in class from 7:30-9:00 and would come in after morning smoko. Internships are unpaid. What you have is actually a somewhat illegal situation.

 

[bigblockz8]

The real question I have is if you are in a formal apprenticeship program? What happens if you're injured while working, for example? It's fine to work for something other than money but whatever that something is, it should be clearly understood by both parties and spelled out somewhere in writing.

Forgot to mention that! It's not a formal program at all. I went there in June, kept asking, kept coming back, finally in august they agreed and I started in September. I like that it isn't formal simply because of what I've learned. Plus the mechanic I've been learning from went to school and then had to learn the "real" way once hired. He's been giving me mini lessons of what he learned.

As far as the injury issue, my mom and I had to sign a letter releasing the airport, owner, and business of liability. So zero liability on their end. Not really a good idea considering that I don't have health insurance as of today's new year. Forgot about that until now.

 

[Henning]

Forgot to mention that! It's not a formal program at all. I went there in June, kept asking, kept coming back, finally in august they agreed and I started in September. I like that it isn't formal simply because of what I've learned. Plus the mechanic I've been learning from went to school and then had to learn the "real" way once hired. He's been giving me mini lessons of what he learned.

As far as the injury issue, my mom and I had to sign a letter releasing the airport, owner, and business of liability. So zero liability on their end. Not really a good idea considering that I don't have health insurance as of today's new year. Forgot about that until now.

That liability release isn't worth the paper it's written on. What you have going right now is a legal cluster f-.

 

[Everskyward]

I think the real answer depends on the labor laws in your state and whether or not they address unpaid, informal apprenticeships.

 

[N801BH]

Now.. There is .......CHANGE......... you can believe in..

 

[Silvaire]

My advice is that if you ever continue on to a career in aviation you'll soon learn that anytime a potential employer says the job requires a "passion for aviation" what he really means is that he ain't gonna pay you squat.

 

[Tom-D]

I wonder what the Labor and industries will think when he gets hurt on the job? which isn't really a job.

 

[Henning]

I wonder what the Labor and industries will think when he gets hurt on the job? which isn't really a job.

It's gonna be ugly as Hell is what it's gonna be, especially with mom signing him into indentured servitude.

 

[N801BH]

It's gonna be ugly as Hell is what it's gonna be, especially with mom signing him into indentured servitude.

Mom wants to get rid of him..... He lost his health insurance TODAY...

 

[Henning]

Mom wants to get rid of him..... He lost his health insurance TODAY...

She'll be in as much trouble as the boss....

 

[docmirror]

Internships are unpaid. What you have is actually a somewhat illegal situation.

Incorrect, and incorrect. Both my kids are on paid internships and have been since they started college. Engineering internships are almost always paid, including room and board in many cases.

Nothing illegal about volunteering. In fact, there is a large call for it now with major unemployment. The feds, and all states encourage volunteering, and provide some significant assistance for the organization and often for the volunteer.

 

[redtail]

It's gonna be ugly as Hell is what it's gonna be, especially with mom signing him into indentured servitude.

. Wow, I guess this is quite different than the program I was in. I thought he was in an official apprenticeship program.

Pay or no pay, I don't like the sound of the liability waiver.

 

[RV10flyer]

When I was in the Army at Ft. Hood in 1992, I volunteered to help Bob B.(now deceased) at Lampasas TX airport for several months on the weekends. I recieved a wealth of A&P knowledge for a McDonald's lunch and a few rides in a Navion. Got my A&P, spent four years overhauling jet engines making $12.25/hr. A&P's are plentiful and many will work for very little. I went to school and have been doing residential hvac ever since. Better money and less hours. Do what makes you happy and don't do anything any riskier than riding that bike 8 miles to volunteer.

 

[Henning]

. Wow, I guess this is quite different than the program I was in. I thought he was in an official apprenticeship program.

Pay or no pay, I don't like the sound of the liability waiver.

Did you go through IBEW, they have one of the best apprenticeship programs out there.

 

[redtail]

Did you go through IBEW, they have one of the best apprenticeship programs out there.

Not exactly. It was a joint program between the company and the board of education. I was in a Vo-Tech high school.

I couldn't join the union until I was actually hired after high school.

 

[Henning]

Incorrect, and incorrect. Both my kids are on paid internships and have been since they started college. Engineering internships are almost always paid, including room and board in many cases.

Nothing illegal about volunteering. In fact, there is a large call for it now with major unemployment. The feds, and all states encourage volunteering, and provide some significant assistance for the organization and often for the volunteer.

I'm glad to hear that some internships are paid, that is not universal though, and sometimes the kids have to pay for the credits they earn through it.

As for volunteering, they are talking about community service volunteering, not taking up jobs that people need to be able to eat. If you 'volunteer' to work for businesses that only makes unemployment worse, socio-economically it's basically the same thing as 'scabbing'. Even when I was 11 and riding around buying cars and working on them with the guys down the street who took me on as a little brother I was getting paid for it.

 

[Everskyward]

I always figured volunteering was OK when done for a non-profit. Not so much so for a for-profit business. I found some information here.

http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/docs/volunteers.asp

Under the FLSA, employees may not volunteer services to for-profit private sector employers. On the other hand, in the vast majority of circumstances, individuals can volunteer services to public sector employers. When Congress amended the FLSA in 1985, it made clear that people are allowed to volunteer their services to public agencies and their community with but one exception - public sector employers may not allow their employees to volunteer, without compensation, additional time to do the same work for which they are employed.

And here.

http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/docs/trainees.asp

If all of the following criteria apply, the trainees or students are not employees within the meaning of the Act:

The training, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to that which would be given in a vocational school;

The training is for the benefit of the trainees or students;

The trainees or students do not displace regular employees, but work under close supervision;

The employer that provides the training receives no immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees or students and, on occasion, his operations may even be impeded;

The trainees or students are not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the training period; and

The employer and the trainees or students understand that the trainees or students are not entitled to wages for the time spent in training.

 

[redtail]

I'm glad to hear that some internships are paid, that is not universal though, and sometimes the kids have to pay for the credits they earn through it.

As for volunteering, they are talking about community service volunteering, not taking up jobs that people need to be able to eat. If you 'volunteer' to work for businesses that only makes unemployment worse, socio-economically it's basically the same thing as 'scabbing'. Even when I was 11 and riding around buying cars and working on them with the guys down the street who took me on as a little brother I was getting paid for it.

Yes, we have a paid 10-12 week summer internship program (not in the electrical field) for high school, undergraduate and graduate students.

Not sure how old the program is but I don't think it was in effect when I was in school.

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it. I did work a paid summer job at the airport that year. It was with the gardeners (there were no electrical summer jobs for students) , cutting grass and watering plants.....I HATED IT.

I guess I was an intern or apprentice but I don't recall them calling it that.

 

[docmirror]

As for volunteering, they are talking about community service volunteering, not taking up jobs that people need to be able to eat. If you 'volunteer' to work for businesses that only makes unemployment worse, socio-economically it's basically the same thing as 'scabbing'. Even when I was 11 and riding around buying cars and working on them with the guys down the street who took me on as a little brother I was getting paid for it.

NOPE! I work with three volunteer organizations. We have a job bank that is filled with all kinds of tasks, some are community service oriented, and some are direct skill training such as the type described by the OP. We have openings for a sheet metal assistant, landscaper, concrete work, etc.

In the case of the OP, as I said, if they paid him he would be instantly fired because the libs(like you) have raised the min wage, and all the associated shyte that official employment requires. That's why there are all kinds of jobs at the volunteer organizations that fall under the 'too low scale' to pay wages.

I'm certain that several of our job bank companies or organizations give money to the volunteers under the table, and I'm fine with that. Anything I can do to keep someone off of unemployment for another month is all good.