Apollo’s Legacy

denverpilot

denverpilot

Tied Down
Joined
Nov 8, 2009
Messages
55,483
Location
Denver, CO
Display Name
Display name:
DenverPilot
An impressive treatise on why Apollo’s legacy is holding us back.

And most folks don’t know Kennedy asked to cancel Apollo right before he was assassinated...

Or the budget percentage Apollo was at of our national budget...

Worth a watch. She’s the biggest Apollo fan I know, and yet she has a solid point.

 
denverpilot said:
And most folks don’t know Kennedy asked to cancel Apollo right before he was assassinated...

Click to expand...
I subscribe to her channel and watched that. Before watching it, I'd never heard about JFK intending to cancel Apollo and proposing to do a joint effort with the soviets. Definitely an interesting twist, but I'm curious why this hadn't been reported previously (to my knowledge).

I do remember in one of her videos she mentioned a proposal to use Gemini to get to the Moon.
 
Brad Z said:
I subscribe to her channel and watched that. Before watching it, I'd never heard about JFK intending to cancel Apollo and proposing to do a joint effort with the soviets. Definitely an interesting twist, but I'm curious why this hadn't been reported previously (to my knowledge).

I do remember in one of her videos she mentioned a proposal to use Gemini to get to the Moon.
Click to expand...
The latest ‘Moon Anniversary’ shows on PBS and Smithsonian both reported the JFK thing, plus quite a few other interesting post-60s revelations.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
Bill Watson said:
The latest ‘Moon Anniversary’ shows on PBS and Smithsonian both reported the JFK thing, plus quite a few other interesting post-60s revelations.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Click to expand...
Interesting. Probably a good thing that the 24 hour news cycle didn’t exist in the sixties.
 
Well she gives a good history of NASA and the Apollo program, I don’t know what she’s getting at with a flawed legacy though.

It’s legacy is a program that was a result of what happens when you have an grand goal, a concerted drive to accomplish that goal and an enormous cash infusion to make the goal reality. It was a program no different than any other NASA or DOD acquisition in that it had its ups and downs and ultimately was almost cancelled because of JFK and then the Apollo 1 fire.

I don’t think anyone honestly compares what NASA was in the 60s and expects the same type of accomplishments today. Mars is a far greater challenge and the public’s imagination just isn’t there like it was in the 60s. Even after Apollo 11 the public as a whole lost interest. After 17, there were massive layoffs associated (50,000 people) with NASA. The Shuttle rekindled it a bit but nothing like Mercury, Gemini and Apollo.
 
Last edited:
I kinda look at the path of NASA like that of GA. You really can’t put it on one thing. Rising costs, a bureaucracy of safety regs, lack of public imagination and a willing to take risks. The biggie, just too many other distractions wanting our hard earned $$$.

Oh yeah, if you all don’t know already, HBO just released the BD version of “From the Earth to the Moon.” Apparently not a very good transfer but at $23, it’s worth a look.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Just a joke. Didn’t mean to come across as snotty and I don’t see how I did.
Click to expand...
Any positive attitude or encouragement of assassination is in poor taste. IMNSHO
 
Velocity173 said:
I don’t think anyone honestly compares what NASA was in the 60s and expects the same type of accomplishments today. Mars is a far greater challenge and the public’s imagination just isn’t there like it was in the 60s. Even after Apollo 11 the public as a whole lost interest. After 17, there were massive layoffs associated (50,000 people) with NASA. The Shuttle rekindled it a bit but nothing like Mercury, Gemini and Apollo.
Click to expand...

I hear middle aged and older folks say it all the time... “Why can’t we go to the moon?!”

I think you’re right about a grand goal, and she’s saying the same. A goal that transcends administrations.

It just isn’t there for anyone younger than a certain age. They know the current government can’t even pass simple compromises, let alone fill a pothole in less than a year.

luvflyin said:
Wow. Cable, Internet, Facebook, Twitter, Fox, CNN, etc etc in the 60’s. Now there’s a good Alternate History term paper.
Click to expand...

Good god.
 
Just finished the new Air & Space. Exact topic, going back to the Moon and the differences in NASA then vs now. I didn’t realize the VP stated a few months back, a 5 year goal of going back. NASA and some of the contractors (LM, BlueMoon, Space X) seem to think they can pull it off. We shall see if our current politicians will grant the go ahead. Looks like the next few years will be an interesting time in space exploration. Little helicopter drone attached to the Mars Lander next year as well.
 
Last edited:
Velocity173 said:
Just finished the new Air & Space. Exact topic, going back to the Moon and the differences in NASA then vs now. I didn’t realize the VP stated a few months back, a 5 year goal of going back. NASA and some of the contractors (LM, BlueMoon, Space X) seem to think they can pull it off. We shall see if our current politicians will grant the go ahead. Looks like the next few years will be an interesting time in space exploration. Little helicopter drone attached to the Mars Lander next year as well.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, most of the technical memory and expertise is gone due to retirement or passing.
 
Apollo was certainly a grand and spectacular achievement but it was also daring and risky. It was large enough to keep rolling even after the Apollo I catastrophe but I think what Amy is saying is just that we let it overshadow all of the other things we've done over the past 50 years. It's not like we've just been sitting on our laurels doing nothing, there was the Shuttle, the ISS, the Mars Rovers and all of the planetary probes. We have learned so much since 1969. We also have not lost the technology or capability. If we for some reason HAD to go to the Moon we could accomplish it in fairly short order, we already know how to do it. I'm an old man but I think these are exciting times for space exploration, especially when you toss in a couple of eccentrically visionary billionaires like Bezos and Musk. We're on a steady course, no need to be so impatient.
 
I immigrated to the U.S. with my parents in 1965 to the JSC community in Houston. My father was a young engineer working on the Blue Streak for British Aerospace. Recruiting foreign engineers was common as there just was not enough Americans to get the project finished on schedule. My fondest memories where growing up a NASA kid...sort of funny parents were always looking for baseball and basketball coaches to help out with youth sports teams as most fathers either never played or may not even understand the game. I had neighbors like Kermit Beahan who flew on both atomic bomb missions and was the bombardier on Bockscar over Nagasaki. Apollo’s quick success also cemented is quick demise and come January of 1973 so many Employees and contractors became redundant. My family started a small business to stay in the area...but most went home...I drive past JSC twice a day and always remember the good times...it’s been a great week.
 
murphey said:
Unfortunately, most of the technical memory and expertise is gone due to retirement or passing.
Click to expand...
Most of the technical expertise left about 25-30 years ago. Fortunately, many of them were senior folks on the Shuttle program, and they trained the next generation. Ditto how the shuttle folks are winding down, now, and training the next generation.

It *always* happens this way. We can't clone the old heads; all we can do is try to bring the young 'uns up right.

When I started at Boeing, there were a number Apollo veterans around...even veterans of earlier programs. One of the spacecraft designer's favorite sayings was, "That didn't work on Looney Orbiter, and it ain't gonna work here." I did snag a set of Lunar Orbiter cufflinks.

That was almost 40 years ago. I retired myself, a bit over two years ago, as lead engineer on a smallsat program. My chief designer was less than half my age, about the same age as my boss (whom I had been mentor to, ~10 years earlier). There was probably the same touch of bemused condescension that I gave the Apollo veterans in the 80s ("Male, pale, and stale" was the way my young (female) boss joked about it). But we worked it out, the kids did a great job and we had 100% success after deployment.

The next generation will do just fine. They always do.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Doc Holliday said:
Yea, too bad nothing was wrote down or recorded. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Heh. Not to mention that it's mostly done with computer modeling nowadays. Back then, they even had to do their own graphs and "spreadsheets" from a mechanical printout.

I used to correspond with Dr. Jack Crenshaw, who helped calculate/design the famous "figure-8" trajectory that the Apollo missions used to go the moon. Basically, they kicked the craft out of low Earth orbit, placing in an eccentric ellipse. The moon's gravity would then snatch the craft into orbit.

https://www.embedded.com/electronic...9/Calculating-trajectories-for-Apollo-program
 
Velocity173 said:
Even after Apollo 11 the public as a whole lost interest.
Click to expand...

This would imply that the public had an interest prior to Apollo 11. Read this article the other day which provided an interesting look at what the polls were saying about our moon effort throughout the 60's. As @Brad Z more or less stated, I dont think Apollo would have survived in a 24 hour news cycle.

Whether the program has paid off in the long term might still even be up for some debate...

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scie...-apollo-11-mission-fifty-years-ago-180972165/
 
apr911 said:
This would imply that the public had an interest prior to Apollo 11. Read this article the other day which provided an interesting look at what the polls were saying about our moon effort throughout the 60's. As @Brad Z more or less stated, I dont think Apollo would have survived in a 24 hour news cycle.

Whether the program has paid off in the long term might still even be up for some debate...

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scie...-apollo-11-mission-fifty-years-ago-180972165/
Click to expand...

Interesting article. It's interesting to think about the alternate history of what if Kennedy hadn't been assassinated, what if we hadn't been bogged down in Vietnam. This article suggests that the problems that plague NASA today plagued the agency then as well.
 
Being the 50th anniversary and all I was prompted to watch some of the full length (real time) presentations that were airing on the internet and I'll have to admit that aside from the grand spectacle of being the first manned landing on the Moon it was pretty boring stuff. I recall back in 1969 yes, pretty much everyone was watching the actual landing as it occurred and obviously it was timed so as to occur during American prime time but attention quickly waned afterwards. I don't remember but it's quite possible that by 3 am all three channels were displaying the usual test patterns.
 
Warlock said:
I immigrated to the U.S. with my parents in 1965 to the JSC community in Houston. My father was a young engineer working on the Blue Streak for British Aerospace. Recruiting foreign engineers was common as there just was not enough Americans to get the project finished on schedule. My fondest memories where growing up a NASA kid...sort of funny parents were always looking for baseball and basketball coaches to help out with youth sports teams as most fathers either never played or may not even understand the game. I had neighbors like Kermit Beahan who flew on both atomic bomb missions and was the bombardier on Bockscar over Nagasaki. Apollo’s quick success also cemented is quick demise and come January of 1973 so many Employees and contractors became redundant. My family started a small business to stay in the area...but most went home...I drive past JSC twice a day and always remember the good times...it’s been a great week.
Click to expand...
I was your neighbor at one point then. Lived in League City 25 years ago. Worked at JSC in the library as a 20 year old doing cataloging and pulling research literature. Cool place to work.
 
PIREP on the “From the Earth to the Moon” BD version. I actually think they did a decent remaster. Only real gripe is the color is a little too vivid. The clarity is a big improvement over DVD. A marked difference in the LLRV scene alone. It’s brighter as well. No anniversary special features or special wrapping but for $23, an excellent buy.
 
I think Mars is a much, much lighter lift than the Apollo/moon - it will take a lot of money, fer sure, but the base tech is so much more advanced now. Just not the "from scratch" kinda lift they had back in the 60s; materials have advanced, as has the body of knowledge/experience with the vehicle tech, exponential increases in IT HW and SW, modeling, etc. It's an engineering effort, but no new ground in science has to be broken, or not much, anyway, comparatively.

And those folks beat JFK's "decade" deadline by almost a year and a half. . .
 
I’m going to take a different tack. I think there is room for a “space race” type of national push to accomplish something grand and magnificent. I don’t think space is the answer, though. I also don’t think we need to devote as much of our budget to it. And before you think I’m some sort of socialist libbie, I’m not. And, I’m not saying this as some sort of political rant. But how nice would it be to cut our so-called “defense” budget by, say, half, and redirect that money toward getting us off of our massive oil addiction. Not just foreign oil, but oil period.

How? I don’t have that answer. But give me a few tens of billion bucks and some actual leadership from the top, and I’m pretty sure we could figure it out. And if we weren’t having to spend so much time and money (and petroleum) ensuring our continued supply of oil, we wouldn’t even miss the military spend.

Just my $.02, and I’ll shut up about it now.
 
DaleB said:
I’m going to take a different tack. I think there is room for a “space race” type of national push to accomplish something grand and magnificent. I don’t think space is the answer, though. I also don’t think we need to devote as much of our budget to it. And before you think I’m some sort of socialist libbie, I’m not. And, I’m not saying this as some sort of political rant. But how nice would it be to cut our so-called “defense” budget by, say, half, and redirect that money toward getting us off of our massive oil addiction. Not just foreign oil, but oil period.

How? I don’t have that answer. But give me a few tens of billion bucks and some actual leadership from the top, and I’m pretty sure we could figure it out. And if we weren’t having to spend so much time and money (and petroleum) ensuring our continued supply of oil, we wouldn’t even miss the military spend.

Just my $.02, and I’ll shut up about it now.
Click to expand...

Honestly we already have a huge national push as big or bigger than Apollo going on in drone and satellite tech, as well as drone defense systems.

They just don’t talk about it much or need the public’s approval or support. This race requires a security clearance. :)

Our “allies” really don’t bring it when it comes to firepower or boots in theater, we are way cheaper to abuse and our kids more expendable than theirs, but they do offer us nice up and downlink facilities.

Anyone can sign up and join the ranks of folks assigned to the armpit of Australia... Alice Springs. Just bring that clearance and leave your cell phone at home, or it’ll be ground into a fine powder by the nice kids with machine guns at the guard shack on the way in. :)

There’s a GIANT tech race going on. We just can’t see it. I just thank the couple of folks I know are involved for doing whatever the eff they do all day. They won’t tell me if they have a plan for a drone not shutting down Gatwick for days now, like already happened and Americans ignored in favor of political news ... even though US airports are as vulnerable...

But I bet they do.

Moral of the story... if your boss at DefenseMegaCorp asks you if you want an all expenses paid trip to Australia — say no. It ain’t Sydney. LOL.

And we definitely have a very large tech race going. Way bigger than Apollo. And much more than 4% of the national budget. Folks who work on it all say it’s pretty neat stuff, too... but they can’t tell ya what any of it does. :)
 
denverpilot said:
And we definitely have a very large tech race going. Way bigger than Apollo. And much more than 4% of the national budget. Folks who work on it all say it’s pretty neat stuff, too... but they can’t tell ya what any of it does. :)
Click to expand...
Yes. And it would be almost completely superfluous if we were not in desperate need of resources that keep us in constant conflict with large swaths of the world. Those hundreds of billions of tax dollars could be much better spent.

I’m as techie as the next guy, but programs like that don’t make me smile.
 
DaleB said:
I’m going to take a different tack. I think there is room for a “space race” type of national push to accomplish something grand and magnificent. I don’t think space is the answer, though. I also don’t think we need to devote as much of our budget to it. And before you think I’m some sort of socialist libbie, I’m not. And, I’m not saying this as some sort of political rant. But how nice would it be to cut our so-called “defense” budget by, say, half, and redirect that money toward getting us off of our massive oil addiction. Not just foreign oil, but oil period.

How? I don’t have that answer. But give me a few tens of billion bucks and some actual leadership from the top, and I’m pretty sure we could figure it out. And if we weren’t having to spend so much time and money (and petroleum) ensuring our continued supply of oil, we wouldn’t even miss the military spend.

Just my $.02, and I’ll shut up about it now.
Click to expand...

You’ve got pilots in the military that can barely make annual mins right now. Cutting the budget in half would completely destroy readiness. Not to mention, they’re flying tired aircraft that’ll need to be replaced in the next decade. The MIC fat needs to be cut, cutting the budget won’t address that problem.

As far as our addiction to oil, it’s a necessary evil. Forget transportation and energy, there are forecasted oil demands in other segments especially the plastics industry to offset any future increase in electric vehicles.
 
Last edited:
DaleB said:
Yes. And it would be almost completely superfluous if we were not in desperate need of resources that keep us in constant conflict with large swaths of the world. Those hundreds of billions of tax dollars could be much better spent.

I’m as techie as the next guy, but programs like that don’t make me smile.
Click to expand...

Technically we don’t. We have those resources here. We’re guarding mostly Europe’s resources.

But that’ll lead to a discussion that will get the thread locked if people can’t behave. So I’ll shut up now.
 
DaleB said:
As will I. There’s no point in arguing it. We have a deep seated addiction to oil and foreign intervention that will eventually destroy us; I’m just hoping I’m gone by then.
Click to expand...

That’s pretty much where I’m at. I’ll be dead and they’ll still be shooting at each other. And they don’t care about my opinion on it anyway. ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top