Anyone have experience with dropping objects? (on purpose ;) )

flyguy_17

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flyguy_17
I fly for the local Sherriff's Office Search and Rescue and as part of our mission they would like me to be able to drop a care package to "found persons" when awaiting rescue from our ground troops. Such as a small bag or box consisting of a bottle of water, meal bar, 2 way radio, instructions, ect. I own a 172. I have yet to attempt this and have concerns of how quickly it will fall away from the aircraft and not impact the empennage. Which brings me to the thought of weather to use a small parachute or just a streamer. I foresee pros and cons to each. The parachute would better protect the cargo, but would have a far higher likelihood of catching the tail on the way out. Also would be far more subject to wind drift on its decent to the subject (Don't want to send someone on a journey through the hills, possibly with an existing injury, to retrieve a care package). The streamer option seems like a better idea with less concern of a tail impact and a more direct trajectory to the target dropzone. I do realize this option will require steps to protect the equipment being dropped from the hard impact, and require dropping further from the person(s) on the ground to prevent possibility of hitting them. And yes, I am aware of FAR 91.15
Any thoughts or input before I go test this out?
 
When SAR around here was still doing that, they avoided dropping large objects.

During practice, it was noted that anytime there were high winds aloft, pretty much anything dropped would end up the next county over.

We stopped messing with it a LONG time ago. If ground teams aren't going to get to someone for long enough that they'll need additional water or food, you need to call in mutual aid and get a helo in the air.

Dropping stuff is pretty much ridiculous, as far as an actual SAR "need" goes... Was what most of the local agencies decided after putting it on the list of things to attempt during some live simulations and having crews attempt it.

Not to mention most PIOs cringe when you mention you'll be tossing heavy things at the victims at high rates of speed filled with things they don't need.

"We found them and then whacked one of them upside the head with a box full of cookies and water..." isn't going to play too well in the press when the ground team is a couple of hours out.
 
OK that last line made me laugh. But in all seriousness I do understand and agree...mostly. Every mission is different with a hundred different circumstances, so I would say it depends on the individual case and conditions to decide if it is necessary. Most often, probably not practical.
Buuuuut....i do want to try it in practice, if nothing else just for fun. :) Were you involved with the dropping? Do you know what system they used (parachute, streamer, something else)? Any problems or procedures used to avoid catching the tail of the aircraft?
 
This doesn't answer your question at all...

But consider this. How many times has it been necessary to drop anything to a victim for lifesaving reasons? If the answer is >1, then there's some other piece of the SAR chain that is missing in order to rapidly provide critical care to a patient, and that should be addressed before care package bombing becomes a need.

Is this the actual SO requesting this as a thing to be done? Or is this a volunteer auxiliary that is creating this need? I ask because I have some familiarity with similar organizations, and I can tell you right now that our full time side would lose their minds if any one of the volunteers suggested bombing people with care items.

We greatly respect the work our civilian volunteers perform... but we'd much rather them be experts at the relatively mundane (but important) stuff they're tasked with, rather than creating a solution in search of a problem.
 
OK that last line made me laugh. But in all seriousness I do understand and agree...mostly. Every mission is different with a hundred different circumstances, so I would say it depends on the individual case and conditions to decide if it is necessary. Most often, probably not practical.
Buuuuut....i do want to try it in practice, if nothing else just for fun. :) Were you involved with the dropping? Do you know what system they used (parachute, streamer, something else)? Any problems or procedures used to avoid catching the tail of the aircraft?

I didn't drop anything but friends did. They used streamers. The SAR organization wasn't quite "mentally ready" to try it out again after some previous real training drops in the 70s, which turned out to be both problematic and generally useless, so some folks went out and "practiced" privately.

Results were poor to say the least. Out of numerous drops on different days, only one item was ever recovered. In wooded areas, at least two items, even using streamers, ended up so high in the trees that no victim would ever be able to retrieve them.

Interest waned quickly once it was determined that most of our SAR here would be in mountainous densely forested land.

The item that was recovered successfully was equipped with a safety orange streamer and was dropped in white snow in an open field. Stuff dropped in regular non-winter colored areas never was recovered or, as mentioned above, ended up landing in places you wouldn't want someone going after it.

Obviously a heavy box of supplies would make it through brush in most cases, but then you have the problem of how to pack it so it doesn't disintegrate on impact. Water drops for example, would be a nightmare.

Having someone stuck where they were "located", but could not be extricated for days is pretty much unheard of around here, we have plenty of technical climbing and rescue folks who'll rig up ropes or whatever is needed if a helo can't get above victims. The most common winter retrievals are done with snowmobiles and maybe a litter for someone with lower extremity injuries, and summer it's ATVs and a litter. It's really rare someone ends up very far from a passable trail unless they take a long fall.

Even in cases of significant injury, usually the protocol is to have a properly equipped medical helo land in as close a clearing as possible and then have the mountain rescue folks extricate to that meadow or whatever.

The big killer here is exposure. One night out, most folks survive, two nights out at altitude things start to get iffy if they can't build or find shelter, three starts to be a death zone if not properly equipped for cold, even in summertime, so the need to drop any sort of supplies is nearly zero. We need to go in and get their butts out as quickly as possible. Ground teams will generally continue work overnight when aircraft are all grounded in the dark unless weather conditions are placing even properly equipped ground teams at significant risk.

A search for an aircraft a few years ago that iced up and eventually was found to have spun straight down into forested land was called off overnight multiple days in a row because the Sheriff felt the snowmobile crews were pushing it way too hard and he'd have a new search on his hands for a volunteer if they left folks out in what was essentially blizzard conditions and extremely cold temps.

When the sun came out a few days later, the ground team that found the wreckage did it by smell near the last known radar hits. The forest around the aircraft was completely covered in fuel. The aircraft had come apart in the spin and doused a large area of forest on its way down. The ground team smelled that before they found it.

I haven't heard a single story of needing an air drop of anything to survivors since I first started hanging around SAR folks here in 1991. Once they're located, they're never very far from the nearest passable ATV or snowmobile road, track, or trail. It's the finding part that is important. They've got about three nights out, or they start to die.

I would suggest that practice looking for a needle in a haystack from 500 AGL and getting really good at spotting things that don't look right, will serve far more useful than practicing air drops.
 
I've dropped lots of flour bombs over the years and got pretty good at it. From 500' I can usually get it within 100' radius and even right on target 25% of the time. It will not hit the tail as it drops straight down. Wind and speed don't have a lot of effect on a light package. The heavier the package the further it will go horizontally. Used to drop 25# bags of flour out of a B-25 at airshows. They would travel quite aways doing 180mph. We went out over the Great Salt Lake one time and skipped watermelons. Don
 
I've done flour bombs. The Navion being a low wing isn't the greatest (at least the canopy is easier than chucking them out the door of the cherokee or whatever). I don't usually hit close enough to win, but yeah, I can get it on the runway within 100' of the targetk.
 
Only things I've dropped were jumpers and toilet paper.

That said I'd be super careful with a canopy, you really don't want that to get caught on your tail.

Just dropping without any canopy could damage the stuff you're dropping.

I'd be looking into making a easy static line, so the package would drop below you before deploying.

I'd go to a DZ and talk to a parachute rigger.
 
Did practice drops from helos at am Army school. Rations and such for patrol resupply. Use cardboard box with padding inside or just a case of MRE's by itself. Unfortunately they usually survived just fine. But the Helo was pretty low. You might want an empty box or 2 on the outside for more crush protection.

From a Cessna, i would have a pax window that opens. Pax opens window, holds box near window. Try to get it out on your call and go behind strut/wheel. No chute or streamer, those could get caught on horizontal stab. should be pretty doable for a small box with some food, water bottles, etc to go out of a plane that size. Ideally a minimum would be a jump 182 with no door and someone to push loads out the plane. you could really move some boxes out that way.
 
Can't you pull the door off a 172 too?

Pull the door and the right seat and that would be a good setup, if you didn't have long wheel pants, and we're just dropping a straight box, probably could just kick it out.
 
Although it looks like an item air dropped falls opposite the direction of travel it is actually traveling in the same direction due to the forward throw of the item being dropped it will should generally fall away without impacting the tail unless the load is so light it gets carried by the relative wind. When dropping water containers you should have a vent cap that allows the pressure to equalize on impact. If you closed the vent cap the pressure would pop the container open and the contents would spill out when the CDS container was pulled over.

Here is some light reading:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/57-38/Ch6.htm

j. Forward throw is the effect that inertia has on a falling object. When an object leaves an aircraft, it is traveling at a speed equal to the speed of the aircraft. The parachutist (or bundle) continues to move in the direction of flight until the dynamics of gravity and the parachute take effect. Forward throw for rotary-wing aircraft is half the aircraft speed expressed in meters. To determine the amount of forward throw when using a USAF aircraft, apply the following distances:


IMG00047.GIF
 
A small parachute on a larger package works well on lots of stuff. It doesn't have to be human survivable descent speed.

The watermelons I've seen dropped from a B-25 didn't fare too well at Danaher's in Wichita Falls. :D
 
AGL = radius if circle in which package will miss target

200 feet AGL means the payload will be up to 200 feet from aim point, and that's with an experienced pilot and experienced "bombardier" . If the pilots tries to do both, the radius is even greater.
 
Used to be, at Cut Bank Montana, if you filled up they would let you borrow their bowling ball which you could try drop onto an old Buick (or something) out in the middle of the field. I didn't even come close but then I only had one shot.
 
Remember that show "Flying Wild Alaska?" That guy regularly made drops to campers. IIRC, someone in the right seat slightly opened the door and during a low pass, in a right bank, tossed the stuff overboard... No chute...
( 2:10 in video)
 
Just the occasional booger. Though, that's more of a flick than a drop.
 
Hate to ruin a good comedy, but they can. - at least wild ones.
The turkeys in Cincinnati were purchased for the promotional event. Probably >99% chance they were domestic turkeys and, based on my experience in raising them, the scriptwriters were correct.
 
So here is the liability reason for not dropping packets



And for my fellow WKRP fans!

 
There is a movie called "point of a spear" or something like that about some missionaries who make contact with a tribe in the Amazon, really cool scene with the bucket maneuver.
 
This is still practiced up in Alaska. It's quite common to drop packages to people for various reasons. Obviously the conditions have to be right, including terrain. Thick stands of tall trees makes it a little tougher, but not impossible.

The technique I was taught and has always worked very well for me is...

1. Fly as slow as you safely can.
2. Fly as low as you safely can.
3. Fly your drop path to the side of the recipients. Doesn't have to be very far, just enough to not hit them if the item is something that might bounce. (Never drop ON then or too them)
4. Typically, depending on speed and how low you can go, you drop just as you see them pass the nose area of the aircraft. Remember you're looking at a paralux because you're actually off to the side a bit.

With some practice, using these techniques, you can very quickly become very skilled at placing your drop right where you want it. You will also learn to adjust your drop timing based on any variations you've made to your speed or alt.

PJ
 
Thank you guys for the helpful feedback. I'll update with the outcome of upcoming tests :)
 
Thank you guys for the helpful feedback. I'll update with the outcome of upcoming tests :)

Some very experienced guys who have done the sort of work you are doing have told you its 1) not a good idea and 2) Its a solution in search of a problem.

Remember that when something untoward happens.
 
I dropped a full diaper out of a Comanche once.

Of course, I was not trying to get it anywhere specific other than _out_ of the aircraft. :)
 
Some very experienced guys who have done the sort of work you are doing have told you its 1) not a good idea and 2) Its a solution in search of a problem.

Remember that when something untoward happens.

No need to be negative and have an "I told you so" attitude. That's not helpful. I never discounted the opinions of those guys. But I did post here looking for input on dropping items, not the specifics of my mission and risk assessment. That will have to be a call I make on the individual needs of my mission and my team, obviously one that wont be taken lightly and will always be in the interest of safety for all involved, both on the ground and in the air. Maybe I should have left the details as of 'why' out of my original post. I do see input of those who have done this kind of thing successfully and that is the kind of helpful information I was looking for. And didn't I mention I was going to TEST it, not just go attempt to employ a tactic that I have no experience with during an actual mission? So the part you quoted me on as to the thanks of those who are helpful, both those who gave feedback as to specifics of why not and those who gave input and pointers on how-to, my thank you still stands. BTW- I have been flying SAR missions for 10 years, so I'm not a complete new-b. Although I'm always looking for opportunities to learn and sharpen and add to my skills.
 
Some very experienced guys who have done the sort of work you are doing have told you its 1) not a good idea and 2) Its a solution in search of a problem.

Remember that when something untoward happens.

None of us told him NOT to do it, we just related that it's not useful for US.

If he has a real useful reason, that's fine too. I doubt anything "untoward" will happen.

He does have to weigh the built in FAR violation to descend below 500 AGL to do it and decide for himself whether the local FSDO will care. Probably not.
 
I have a little home-made parachute with a bean bag in a sock that I've dropped messages, toys, and similar stuff to friends with several years back when I flew more for fun than for work. Never lost it, always got it back!
 
No need to be negative and have an "I told you so" attitude. That's not helpful. I never discounted the opinions of those guys. But I did post here looking for input on dropping items, not the specifics of my mission and risk assessment. That will have to be a call I make on the individual needs of my mission and my team, obviously one that wont be taken lightly and will always be in the interest of safety for all involved, both on the ground and in the air. Maybe I should have left the details as of 'why' out of my original post. I do see input of those who have done this kind of thing successfully and that is the kind of helpful information I was looking for. And didn't I mention I was going to TEST it, not just go attempt to employ a tactic that I have no experience with during an actual mission? So the part you quoted me on as to the thanks of those who are helpful, both those who gave feedback as to specifics of why not and those who gave input and pointers on how-to, my thank you still stands. BTW- I have been flying SAR missions for 10 years, so I'm not a complete new-b. Although I'm always looking for opportunities to learn and sharpen and add to my skills.

An "I told you so" attitude would be what I have AFTER someone gets hurt. Along with "what were you thinking"

This is more along the lines of "what would a reasonable, prudent and similarly experienced person do when faced with the situation". Giving the appearance of failing to heed the educated opinions of reasonable, prudent and similarly experienced persons on the subject at hand is worthy of critique. Negativity is not the same as caution and prudence. There.. was that phrased nicely enough? I hope nobody, including you, gets hurt trying to do this.
 
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