Anyone else notice that most of Class G above 1,200 no longer exists?

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nimdabew

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nimdabew
Look at what happened; see if you can spot it.

Old Sectional:
20150728_181635.jpg


Latest updated sectional:
20150728_181552.jpg
 
I've been telling my students that for years. Here in Michigan there is some G that goes to 14,500 along the Northern border.
 
Let me preface this one, before the real **** storm starts. In the sectional chrt legend, it said something to the effect of "Class E exists above 1,200 FT AGL unless otherwise depicted." I was very perplexed by this when I read it the first time.
 
You do realize that changing class G to class E means we can fly IFR in more places, right?. Don't read too much into the word "controlled."

For a VFR pilot, all it means is 500 feet of cloud clearance.
 
MAKG1 said:
You do realize that changing class G to class E means we can fly IFR in more places, right?. Don't read too much into the word "controlled."

For a VFR pilot, all it means is 500 feet of cloud clearance.
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Yes... But why the change?
 
Very interesting, how old is the top chart?
 
I believe the top chart had a October 2014 expiration. It is a Seattle Sectional.
 
MAKG1 said:
You do realize that changing class G to class E means we can fly IFR in more places, right?. Don't read too much into the word "controlled."
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Class E or G has nothing to do with whether you can fly IFR.
 
MAKG1 said:
You do realize that changing class G to class E means we can fly IFR in more places, right?.
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There are some "interesting" statements in this thread. I think Ben is right, pass the popcorn please...
 
Gotta rid of all the G airspace so they can further keep watch over us.
 
nimdabew said:
Yes... But why the change?
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Where the tools that ATC needs to provide separation exist the airspace should be controlled. Where they don't exist the airspace should be uncontrolled. The needed tools are communications, NAVAIDs, and radar in various combinations. If there's been a change in the tools there should be a change in the airspace.
 
EdFred said:
Gotta rid of all the G airspace so they can further keep watch over us.
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That's one perspective for sure, not saying you are right or wrong. But, maybe the equipment is improving and ATC can help more people.

For a mere $1 billion the U.S. Government could launch drones over every person in the U.S.
 
roncachamp said:
Where the tools that ATC needs to provide separation exist the airspace should be controlled. Where they don't exist the airspace should be uncontrolled. The needed tools are communications, NAVAIDs, and radar in various combinations. If there's been a change in the tools there should be a change in the airspace.
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This is the best answer. :yes: Flying IFR without a clearance in the G to 14,500 areas is tolerated because in those areas the big sky theory usually protects you, but personally I'd be loth to do it, especially without primary radar onboard. IMO if they have the means to separate you, it should be legally required. Hence, reclassify the airspace.
 
azure said:
This is the best answer. :yes: Flying IFR without a clearance in the G to 14,500 areas is tolerated because in those areas the big sky theory usually protects you, but personally I'd be loth to do it, especially without primary radar onboard. IMO if they have the means to separate you, it should be legally required. Hence, reclassify the airspace.
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Keep in mind that radar is not necessarily needed for that, though it certainly helps. There is a reason we have to put TAS on the flight plans, and notify ATC if we get it wrong by more than 5% or 10 knots under IFR.

Not all Class E has radar. Virtually none of the oceanic E does, for rather obvious technical reasons. And some Class G does have radar.

Class E makes no difference to VFR traffic over Class G, aside from cloud clearances. For IFR traffic, it means separation services, with or without radar.
 
MAKG1 said:
Class E makes no difference to VFR traffic over Class G, aside from cloud clearances. For IFR traffic, it means separation services, with or without radar.
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Separation services available depend on the class of airspace. As you state, none is available in class G. Class E only provides separation between other IFR flights.
 
flyingron said:
Separation services available depend on the class of airspace. As you state, none is available in class G. Class E only provides separation between other IFR flights.
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Which is what he said, I think.

And yes, I said that *I* wouldn't go IFR without a clearance in the G without radar *onboard*, not that radar was the only means that *ATC* has to separate traffic. I'm well aware that there are places in the E that ATC can't see you - e.g. right above my present home base, from the ground all the way to about 5400 feet.

I suspect that has something to do with why ZBW is reluctant to give us a clearance below that altitude, as it means more work for everyone involved to effect separation.
 
I suspect it is connected to the implementation of ADS-B. If so, it seems premature to change the airspace. Seems like they would wait until after 2020.
 
Dav8or said:
I suspect it is connected to the implementation of ADS-B. If so, it seems premature to change the airspace. Seems like they would wait until after 2020.
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But it you think about it...

...they change the airspace from G to E, and no one really complains. (Yay! more services! :rolleyes:) Then in 2018 after all the G space is gone, they change the ADS-B out requirements to be all Class A-E airspace regardless of altitude. That way they can keep tabs on everyone, and bill them for all the carbon credits, and services, even if you didn't talk to anyone.
 
azure said:
And yes, I said that *I* wouldn't go IFR without a clearance in the G without radar *onboard*,
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Eh? What sort of inflight RADAR do you think helps you spot traffic? Even the current TCAS is limited and ADSB implementation isn't going to be required in class G airspace.

Still people fly IFR in class G all the time. It's the only way to get in or out of certain airports. Flying the ILS into SVH for example, I'm in uncontrolled space from 700 feet.
 
flyingron said:
Eh? What sort of inflight RADAR do you think helps you spot traffic? Even the current TCAS is limited and ADSB implementation isn't going to be required in class G airspace.
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I've never had it, but my understanding was that TCAS was driven by onboard radar and not dependent on ATC. I could be wrong. I was aware that ADS-B won't be required in the G.
Still people fly IFR in class G all the time. It's the only way to get in or out of certain airports. Flying the ILS into SVH for example, I'm in uncontrolled space from 700 feet.
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I've done it too (at my former home base, also G to 700), but I had a clearance, and hopefully you did too. ;) I meant flying IFR without a clearance through the G to 14,500 airspace that the OP correctly says is on the way out. That's still legal as long as it exists, but you won't find me doing it. :no:
 
azure said:
I've done it too (at my former home base, also G to 700), but I had a clearance, and hopefully you did too. ;) I meant flying IFR without a clearance through the G to 14,500 airspace that the OP correctly says is on the way out. That's still legal as long as it exists, but you won't find me doing it. :no:
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Your argument makes no sense, as there are no clearances in Class G.

14 CFR 1.1 said:
Air traffic clearance means an authorization by air traffic control, for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within controlled airspace.
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azure said:
I've never had it, but my understanding was that TCAS was driven by onboard radar and not dependent on ATC. I could be wrong. I was aware that ADS-B won't be required in the G.
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You are wrong. TCAS has nothing to do with radar. It is on board equipment that actively interrogates transponders in nearby aircraft and displays their position relative to the airplane equipped with TCAS. It cannot see airplanes without transponders, or planes that have the transponder turned off.
 
dmspilot said:
Your argument makes no sense, as there are no clearances in Class G.
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Then try taking off into the clag at an Class G airport with overlying Class E at 700 without a clearance. There has been at least one case where someone was dinged for it, even though they tried to argue that it was legal because they didn't need a clearance in the G.

You can legally do it in the G to 14,500 but definitely NOT in transition areas, and I think not where the E goes down to 1200, though I'm not sure whether the case(s) addressed that situation.
 
Dav8or said:
You are wrong. TCAS has nothing to do with radar. It is on board equipment that actively interrogates transponders in nearby aircraft and displays their position relative to the airplane equipped with TCAS. It cannot see airplanes without transponders, or planes that have the transponder turned off.
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Okay, thanks for the info. :)
 
dmspilot said:
Your argument makes no sense, as there are no clearances in Class G.
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I've gotten multiple clearances in G airspace to 14,500. Some I've picked up while still in it, some cleared all the way through, some cleared into it. So yes, there is.

There's what's written, and there's what actually happens, and they aren't always congruent.
 
azure said:
And yes, I said that *I* wouldn't go IFR without a clearance in the G without radar *onboard*, not that radar was the only means that *ATC* has to separate traffic. I'm well aware that there are places in the E that ATC can't see you - e.g. right above my present home base, from the ground all the way to about 5400 feet.
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Onboard radar to show other traffic? What're ya flyin'?
 
flyingron said:
Still people fly IFR in class G all the time. It's the only way to get in or out of certain airports. Flying the ILS into SVH for example, I'm in uncontrolled space from 700 feet.
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True, but where the floor of controlled airspace is 700' AGL there can't legally be anyone operating in that Class G airspace in IMC without a clearance.
 
azure said:
I've never had it, but my understanding was that TCAS was driven by onboard radar and not dependent on ATC. I could be wrong. I was aware that ADS-B won't be required in the G.
Click to expand...

TCAS is driven by transponders in nearby aircraft.
 
azure said:
I've never had it, but my understanding was that TCAS was driven by onboard radar and not dependent on ATC. I could be wrong. I was aware that ADS-B won't be required in the G.

I've done it too (at my former home base, also G to 700), but I had a clearance, and hopefully you did too. ;) I meant flying IFR without a clearance through the G to 14,500 airspace that the OP correctly says is on the way out. That's still legal as long as it exists, but you won't find me doing it. :no:
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You are kiddin, Right...:dunno:...........:redface:
 
TCAS is not dependent on ADSB but unless the other aircraft is operating mode C or S it won't see anything, neither will is required in most low altitude class G or E (other than within 30 miles of a class B). While it may not be technically incorrect to call it a form of RADAR, most don't use that term.

You didn't have a clearance for the class G. You can't get one there. You had a clearance that was only in effect while within controlled airspace.
 
flyingron said:
You didn't have a clearance for the class G. You can't get one there. You had a clearance that was only in effect while within controlled airspace.
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I think that's a distinction without a real difference. Separation was being provided, by closing down the controlled airspace around the airport while you were using the underlying G. Separation is NOT being provided when you're flying without a clearance in the remote G areas out west or in Michigan's UP. You are relying on the big sky theory.

And as both Ed and Steven pointed out, you CAN get a clearance into and through those areas. All I was saying, is that even though you can legally fly IFR through them without a clearance, I wouldn't personally do it.
 
Dav8or said:
I suspect it is connected to the implementation of ADS-B. If so, it seems premature to change the airspace. Seems like they would wait until after 2020.
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Yes this is what I have heard.....the ADS-B towers on the ground have augmented ATC capabilities. Have seen these changes a lot here in the mountains.
 
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