Any ASR Experience?

[ARFlyer]

Has anyone ever shot an ASR approach before?

My CFI had me request an ASR into KSHV last night and I found it quite enjoyable. I have always had apprehension about requesting one from ATC. I figured it was an extra burden and unnecessary to controllers.

However when I asked ATC seem excited. I was told to switch to a different freq and basically told what to expect. He told me where my MAP was, 1.0 from threshold 800' MDA, and not to respond to any instructions.

The instructions were a constant flow of headings and what my aircraft was doing on radar. "Turn Left 150, You are left of course correcting very quickly now" "Turn Left 143, You are still left of course correcting very slowly" He gave me headings all the way to the runway threshold. My CFI was laughing because he said they normally stop at the MAP. When I finally looked up I was lined up on the taxiway with a slight angle towards the runway.

When I told TWR to thank the APP controller, I was told that they thanked me for asking for an ASR. I guess its something out of the norm or for ATC currency?

I have included the Flightaware link from last night. For visual reference.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N224HS/history/20120220/0100Z/KGLH/KSHV

 

[poadeleted20]

I've done a lot of GCA's (mostly PAR's, but many ASR's, too), mostly in my military days, and they're a great emergency back-up if you lose all your nav gear. And it's better to have done a few in training than to try it the first time on a dark and stormy night with nothing left but your flight instruments and a hand-held comm radio.

Also, controllers do have quarterly or annual or some calendar segment currency requirements on thise, so where the equipment is installed, they're very happy to do them. Only problem is, most of the GCA's in the USA have been decommissioned as the military has adopted ILS in its tactical aircraft. Check the Radar Minimums section of your approach book to see where there's one near you, and whether they can do PAR (ILS precision with glide slope as well as lateral guidance) or just ASR (VOR-like precision and no glide slope).

 

[dell30rb]

I have not done one yet but I have been on the air when an approach controller asked an aircraft doing practice approaches if they had time for an ASR approach.

 

[poadeleted20]

...I have been on the air when an approach controller asked an aircraft doing practice approaches if they had time for an ASR approach.

I've heard that before, too -- controller was probably running out of currency.

 

[JoeSelch]

Slightly off topic... what is the quickest way to find out where PARs are available?
Used to be able to get them from Selfridge ANGB, but no longer available to mere mortal civilians.

Looking because I'd like to find a way to use my plane for IFR training and checkride without installing any more equipment. (Currently lacking precision approach capability. Don't plan to keep the plane, but can't afford to do anything with or to it right now. Might be able to scramble the discretionary dollars to pursue the rating.)

 

[weilke]

Slightly off topic... what is the quickest way to find out where PARs are available

There is something called the FLIP or FLIP supplement, don't know if that is accessible for civilians.

The phone number for base operations for air force facilities is on airnav. I have called Grand Forks AFB before and after some transfers talked to the supervisor in approach. Couldn't do a radar approach due to some shuffling around of aircraft going on that day.

 

[bobmrg]

Has anyone ever shot an ASR approach before?

My CFI had me request an ASR into KSHV last night and I found it quite enjoyable. I have always had apprehension about requesting one from ATC. I figured it was an extra burden and unnecessary to controllers.

However when I asked ATC seem excited. I was told to switch to a different freq and basically told what to expect. He told me where my MAP was, 1.0 from threshold 800' MDA, and not to respond to any instructions.

The instructions were a constant flow of headings and what my aircraft was doing on radar. "Turn Left 150, You are left of course correcting very quickly now" "Turn Left 143, You are still left of course correcting very slowly" He gave me headings all the way to the runway threshold. My CFI was laughing because he said they normally stop at the MAP. When I finally looked up I was lined up on the taxiway with a slight angle towards the runway.

When I told TWR to thank the APP controller, I was told that they thanked me for asking for an ASR. I guess its something out of the norm or for ATC currency?

I have included the Flightaware link from last night. For visual reference.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N224HS/history/20120220/0100Z/KGLH/KSHV

The folks at McChord AFB, Gray AAF, and NAS Whidbey used to send representatives to pilot safety meetings in the Seattle area to solicit/beg pilots to ask for ASR and GCA approaches. They have currency requirements just as we do. Gotta admit that I haven't seen one lately...but they will be at the Northwest Aviation Conference the 25th and 26th at the Puyallup Fairgrounds for sure.

Bob Gardner

Bob Gardner

 

[bobmrg]

Slightly off topic... what is the quickest way to find out where PARs are available?
Used to be able to get them from Selfridge ANGB, but no longer available to mere mortal civilians.

Looking because I'd like to find a way to use my plane for IFR training and checkride without installing any more equipment. (Currently lacking precision approach capability. Don't plan to keep the plane, but can't afford to do anything with or to it right now. Might be able to scramble the discretionary dollars to pursue the rating.)

See post #2.

Bob Gardner

 

[poadeleted20]

Slightly off topic... what is the quickest way to find out where PARs are available?

As I said above, check the Radar Minimums section of your approach book.

 

[comanche]

Do the PAR at KGRK (not permitted to land) as its a Army Post, but controllers are seldom busy there and are often willing to bring you to the MAP.

 

[JoeSelch]

As I said above, check the Radar Minimums section of your approach book.

Thanks Ron and Bob - I did read post #2 before posting my question.

I forgot to add the caveat - I am not an instrument pilot, am unfamiliar with instrument terminology, have no approach books, and recognize that even if I did I might need more than "my" local approach book to find a place that might offer a PAR.

Is there another way - say online and free - to find this information (short of looking up every [military?] airport individually)?

 

[gprellwitz]

Thanks Ron and Bob - I did read post #2 before posting my question.

I forgot to add the caveat - I am not an instrument pilot, am unfamiliar with instrument terminology, have no approach books, and recognize that even if I did I might need more than "my" local approach book to find a place that might offer a PAR.

Is there another way - say online and free - to find this information (short of looking up every [military?] airport individually)?

Good question. I couldn't find it on the FAA site. The Radar Minimums section, which is where it would be, doesn't seem to be accessible! If anyone else can point us to it, I'd be grateful!

Actually, I've found how to do it, presuming that you know at least one airport in the volume that has radar minimums. You can determine that from the A/FD Search for that airport in the TPP (http://aeronav.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=aeronav/applications/d_tpp) and click on the Radar Minimums "plate" that comes up. That PDF will list the minimums for all airports in that volume of approach plates.

In Michigan, there are KBTL, KFNT, KGRR, KAZO, KLAN, KMKG, KMBS

 

[denverpilot]

Jesse had me request a no-gyro vector to final at KLNK. Similar vein, the controller seemed happy to do it in the middle of the night.

KPUB decommissioned their radar approach. Folks that used to ask for it gave similar reports that the controllers wanted the practice to remain current in the procedures.

As far as trying to hunt down the details of every available radar approach out there, why? If you're VFR and in that much trouble, you'll be hard pressed to just fly the aircraft. Who needs the details at that point. "start turn, stop turn" pretty well covers it.

 

[BillTIZ]

ASR /PAR part of normal training back in the 70s.
PAR at old Pease AFB NH
ASR at Portland ME

A lot of military bases used to do PARs.

But how many people have completed a DF Approach or even gotten a DF steer to the airport. Not many any more, all those little FSS stations are closed.

 

[ARFlyer]

But how many people have completed a DF Approach or even gotten a DF steer to the airport. Not many any more, all those little FSS stations are closed.

I used DF as a topic in my freshmen aviation class. No one had any idea what I was talking about. Our professor told me he hasn't seen or heard of DF in about 15-20 years. I always thought it was a nifty piece of radio tech.

I did not know you could do a DF Approach. All I found was that it was a directional aid for NAV emergencies and for the lost student pilot.

 

[gkainz]

many back in the old day at NAS Miramar

 

[maddog52]

Did 10 or 12 no gyroa ASRs one night in a B-52G at KBAD. The Shreveport RAPCON was actually pretty happy cause I think we got every controller on duty current.

Did a PAR to mins with a student controller one time at KNPA. Me and the supervising controller had a frank "discussion" when we finally landed after the second try. The first one had us WAY right of course and lined up well with the lighthouse.

ASRs and PARs can be a lot of fun and work great if everybody is doing what they are supposed to.

 

[azure]

In Michigan, there are KBTL, KFNT, KGRR, KAZO, KLAN, KMKG, KMBS

I was going to say, I did a couple no-gyro approaches at FNT about two years ago when I was first learning partial panel with my CFII. It's good to know about the others. In MI it looks like all the fields with TRSAs, and all the Class C airports, have the capability. Is that generally true?

 

[bobmrg]

Thanks Ron and Bob - I did read post #2 before posting my question.

I forgot to add the caveat - I am not an instrument pilot, am unfamiliar with instrument terminology, have no approach books, and recognize that even if I did I might need more than "my" local approach book to find a place that might offer a PAR.

Is there another way - say online and free - to find this information (short of looking up every [military?] airport individually)?

Look at the communications panel on the back of your sectional...under Control Tower Frequencies, over on the right there is a column for ASR/PAR.

Bob Gardner

 

[jnmeade]

Sioux City, IA and Rochester, MN within the last few years. Don't know about right now.

 

[BillTIZ]

I used DF as a topic in my freshmen aviation class. No one had any idea what I was talking about. Our professor told me he hasn't seen or heard of DF in about 15-20 years. I always thought it was a nifty piece of radio tech.

I did not know you could do a DF Approach. All I found was that it was a directional aid for NAV emergencies and for the lost student pilot.

The DF approach would bring you in on a certain inbound heading to the DF antenna normally on the airfield. Granted a very high MDA, but hopefully aligned with a runway.

Our flight school in ASH kept the Concord NH FSS very busy. It was standard practice when completing the night flying hours, to go to CON and get a night DF approach under the hood. The approach would end with an entry to the VFR downwind.

 

[gprellwitz]

Look at the communications panel on the back of your sectional...under Control Tower Frequencies, over on the right there is a column for ASR/PAR.

Bob Gardner

Thanks! The lack of that ancillary material is one of the problems I have with the iPad flight planning tools.

 

[poadeleted20]

I did not know you could do a DF Approach. All I found was that it was a directional aid for NAV emergencies and for the lost student pilot.

AFAIK, you can't get that any more -- all gone, except maybe in Alaska.

 

[ARFlyer]

Thanks! The lack of that ancillary material is one of the problems I have with the iPad flight planning tools.

Do you have ForeFlight? If so the RADAR MINIMUMS NACO page is under the Procedures section sub-section Approach. The whole NACO section is uploaded into that file. So you side swipe until you find the airport you want. The section is a complete mirrored upload of that regions NACO book.

E.g. KLIT's RADAR MINIMUMS is in the South Central Vol 1 of 5 paper book. SC complete RADAR MINIMUM page is under that ForeFlight file.

 

[gprellwitz]

Do you have ForeFlight? If so the RADAR MINIMUMS NACO page is under the Procedures section sub-section Approach. The whole NACO section is uploaded into that file. So you side swipe until you find the airport you want. The section is a complete mirrored upload of that regions NACO book.

E.g. KLIT's RADAR MINIMUMS is in the South Central Vol 1 of 5 paper book. SC complete RADAR MINIMUM page is under that ForeFlight file.

Thanks. You still need to find an airport in the region that has a radar approach, but once you have it, you have them all in that region.

 

[Tom-D]

I've heard that before, too -- controller was probably running out of currency.

I fly them at OKH just for that purpose, but I always do them VFR.

Clouds nasty, Tom doesn't go there any more.

 

[BillTIZ]

AFAIK, you can't get that any more -- all gone, except maybe in Alaska.

The context of the DF approach was in the 70s.

I don't think there are any left either.

 

[denverpilot]

Look at the communications panel on the back of your sectional...under Control Tower Frequencies, over on the right there is a column for ASR/PAR.

You're going to get me started on my ForeFlight pet peeve that those parts of the charts are missing, again Bob.

 

[JoeSelch]

Look at the communications panel on the back of your sectional...under Control Tower Frequencies, over on the right there is a column for ASR/PAR.

Bob Gardner

Ah ha!!
Thanks Bob. Sure wouldn't have thought to look on a sectional for an instrument approach!

 

[deltafox]

PAR is the "old geezers" ILS. Used them as a preference back in the late 70's. Can still hear an Italian controller talking me into Sigonella: "Ona course, ona glidepath, donna toucha nothin."

 

[bobmrg]

Ah ha!!
Thanks Bob. Sure wouldn't have thought to look on a sectional for an instrument approach!

The ASR and PAR are not instrument approaches because you do not use the flight instruments when performing them....just follow the instructions of the ground controller.

Bob

 

[gismo]

The ASR and PAR are not instrument approaches because you do not use the flight instruments when performing them....just follow the instructions of the ground controller.

Bob

Well maybe you don't but I've had to use my flight instruments (AI, ASI, HSI, altimeter, etc)on an ASR approach. What I didn't need was any electronic course guidance other than the voice in my headset.

 

[JoeSelch]

The ASR and PAR are not instrument approaches because you do not use the flight instruments when performing them....just follow the instructions of the ground controller.

Bob

Rut roh... I've been misled about the PAR.

 

[poadeleted20]

The ASR and PAR are not instrument approaches because you do not use the flight instruments when performing them....just follow the instructions of the ground controller.

Bob

Beg to differ. They are instrument approaches, but they don't involve the use of navigational systems. So, they count for currency, but not for the long IFR XC for the instrument rating.

 

[Tom-D]

Beg to differ. They are instrument approaches, but they don't involve the use of navigational systems. So, they count for currency, but not for the long IFR XC for the instrument rating.

Are you telling me that I could have maintained IFR currency by doing ASRs at OKH as I gave the controllers practice?

 

[poadeleted20]

Are you telling me that I could have maintained IFR currency by doing ASRs at OKH as I gave the controllers practice?

Yes, as long as you also did some VOR interception and tracking outside approaches. That's the reason the interception/tracking requirement was put in the regulation -- so military pilots who flew only ASR/PAR approaches would get some time tracking the needles before being allowed to fly IFR in civilian aircraft.

 

[denverpilot]

Yes, as long as you also did some VOR interception and tracking outside approaches. That's the reason the interception/tracking requirement was put in the regulation -- so military pilots who flew only ASR/PAR approaches would get some time tracking the needles before being allowed to fly IFR in civilian aircraft.

And holds.

 

[Tom-D]

Yes, as long as you also did some VOR interception and tracking outside approaches. That's the reason the interception/tracking requirement was put in the regulation -- so military pilots who flew only ASR/PAR approaches would get some time tracking the needles before being allowed to fly IFR in civilian aircraft.

Wish I had logged them.. Oh Well

 

[murphey]

Check the Radar Minimums section of your approach book to see where there's one near you, and whether they can do PAR (ILS precision with glide slope as well as lateral guidance) or just ASR (VOR-like precision and no glide slope).

Pueblo, CO has a PAR, but only for military. I wanted to use it as one of my IFR XC approaches and got denied (made it a non-precision instead).

 

[poadeleted20]

And holds.

Separate and unrelated issue. The requirement for holding was in there from the start.