Another Which One... but for family w 5 kids

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kfvintx

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Kenny
Student in progress and like so many others I've been looking around for possible purchases. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that no single engine piston really works for me.

Closest I can get is Cherokee 6 with 7th jumper seat added. Works for now with youngest being 5 years old and all girls (size and weight of 5 ballerinas expected to be less than 5 linebackers). Not sure how long though, but could build time for at least a few years. Any other models I shold consider?

Will all 7 of us be flying 80% of the time? No. But the common response of purchase what you fly 80% of the time and rent the other doesn't work for me. Where do I rent a 7 seater when needed for family vacations?

Henning suggested a Chieftain in another thread which brings me to the next stage in looking.... is a twin the best option? Not cramming everyone in is certainly appealing but doubling operating cost is not. Fact or fiction on this?

I should be solo'ing this weekend so not a decision to be made now, but I like to be fully informed and educated in this type of decision.
 
unless you have a pile of money.....you will struggle with loading either people....or baggage.

yup....Navajo Chieftain....is probably your best bet.

PC-12 would be my choice....but, you need a pile. :D
 
If you plan on a lot of longer trips where climbing high is advantageous, a Cessna 421 will be a better option since you gain pressurization and a potty.

You just can't break the laws of physics when it comes to flying stuff around, and to keep stuff in the air requires horsepower, the more weight, the more horsepower. A family of 7 and their stuff (and maybe a kid's friend or two) and you start looking at a minimum of 600hp, preferably closer to 700hp.

Now if you want to be really cool, the Beech 18 is a great option. Not as efficient to operate as a Chieftain or 421, but way more cool and fun to fly especially if you want to do some back country airplane camping.
 
Two adults and five kids? I can't think of a single I'd want to fly with that load even if there are technically enough seats. Even if you can fit everyone in and put your spouse in the back with the smaller kids, you won't have much if any room for baggage left. A crowd like that really does beg for a cabin class twin, and if you're still a Student Pilot, you're a long way from that. And not many 7-seat planes are available for rent, anyway.
 
I will do it in my 310 which has a useful of 1952 lbs. I had a Saratoga and it would not have the margin required. A 421 or more will be required when the kids get bigger.

I am comfortable belting two in the same seat, but will be using very very generous margins on my take off calculations. The 310 will allow my family(800 lbs), 100 lbs of bags, and fuel for 500 miles and still be 500 under gross. The Saratoga would be within 100 of gross on the same mission.


Yes, I realize that belting two in one seat is a reduction in safety, however in a twin with the margins described I am comfortable that it is legal and prudent to do so. YMMV.

BTW, my kids are 12, 10, 8, 6 and 4.

Eggman
 
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I like the Cessna 310 ,until the kids get bigger.
 
frfly172 said:
I like the Cessna 310 ,until the kids get bigger.
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Yep, and the good thing about the 310 is all the time you accumulate in it counts towards 421 time in the insurance world. They operate the same numbers at the low speed end and fly very similarly.
 
Maybe wait till you have 100 or so hours, get your instrument rating, then start looking into higher speed, more complex, heavier aircraft.
 
I think the real question is, with 5 girls and a wife, how many bathrooms are in your house? And do you ever get any time in one? :rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
James331 said:
Maybe wait till you have 100 or so hours, get your instrument rating, then start looking into higher speed, more complex, heavier aircraft.
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Yeah, but do it in rentals. The 310 would be the only "step up" plane to consider and in the long run you may be better off with a Navajo or 421 anyway.

It kinda depends on why you're flying which path is best for you. If the impetus for flying is that grandma and grandpa are 200-500 miles away and you want to be there once or twice a month for the weekend, you may as well buy a Navajo or better right now and just start learning in it. Will it take you longer to get your ratings? Yes, but it's irrelevant, you have your CFI fly with you for your first year. You don't even have to do all your primary or instrument training in it, but it is there for you to complete the job right now and for you to get experience in. The sooner you start, the sooner you get to your 100 hrs in Type and get your insurance rates down. Total Time is of secondary consequence once you have 100hrs in type. Also 'step up' airplanes that will not meet your required mission are costing you something more valuable than money, they cost you time. An airplane is basically a time machine, but it can only be one when it does the job.

Now if flying these family trips is the justification you are using for going flying, I wouldn't buy anything until it shakes out just who all wants to go flying and what mama has to say. You may find the best plane for you is a Quicksilver MX-II because only one of the kids is interested.
 
Henning said:
Yeah, but do it in rentals. The 310 would be the only "step up" plane to consider and in the long run you may be better off with a Navajo or 421 anyway.

It kinda depends on why you're flying which path is best for you. If the impetus for flying is that grandma and grandpa are 200-500 miles away and you want to be there once or twice a month for the weekend, you may as well buy a Navajo or better right now and just start learning in it. Will it take you longer to get your ratings? Yes, but it's irrelevant, you have your CFI fly with you for your first year. You don't even have to do all your primary or instrument training in it, but it is there for you to complete the job right now and for you to get experience in. The sooner you start, the sooner you get to your 100 hrs in Type and get your insurance rates down. Total Time is of secondary consequence once you have 100hrs in type. Also 'step up' airplanes that will not meet your required mission are costing you something more valuable than money, they cost you time. An airplane is basically a time machine, but it can only be one when it does the job.

Now if flying these family trips is the justification you are using for going flying, I wouldn't buy anything until it shakes out just who all wants to go flying and what mama has to say. You may find the best plane for you is a Quicksilver MX-II because only one of the kids is interested.
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I'm sure a lot of wisdom and experience somewhere in this.... need to read it a few times to let it soak in.

Question - the 310 seems to be a 6 seater so wouldn't ever fully meet my needs but maybe that is what you mean by "step up" in that it wouldn't be the keeper for long term but allow time building in type. Is this true for the Piper line of Aztec before Navajo (I lived on Navajo Trail growing up --- that's gotta count for something in the decision making process :D)?

Reason for flying - family ranch 4.5 hour drive away that I need to get to more often so fly up Sat morning and back Sun night would be nice without wasting 9 hours on the road. Most of the time would be just me but 3-4 times a year would be entire family (grandma lives within hour drive so always meets us there). Full family vacation 1-2 times per year. The dad for 2 of 5 kids lives in ATL (we are in Houston) so 3-4 round trips per year for them to see him (complicated story but has come up that this could happen more so the thought of long weekends of taking them to ATL and us fly to FL or Bahamas for couple days and pick them up on way back home). Otherwise, trips of shorter distance and fewer people for fun.
 
I think he's a prime candidate for Southwest Airlines with his current hours and no instrument rating, but if you must, shrike commander.
 
You're in the same position as many, and really, the best thing for you is 3 planes, a 421, a 182, and a Pitts in a 8-12 share club. This gives everybody access to planes that meet a variety of missions, there is enough activity on all the planes to keep them running well. You hire a CFI/MEI/A&P/IA to manage the club.
 
kfvintx said:
Henning suggested a Chieftain in another thread which brings me to the next stage in looking.... is a twin the best option? Not cramming everyone in is certainly appealing but doubling operating cost is not. Fact or fiction on this?

I should be solo'ing this weekend so not a decision to be made now, but I like to be fully informed and educated in this type of decision.
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Do you have a feel for how many times a year you will make the trip to the ranch? You have an annual budget exclusive of acquisition costs?
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I think he's a prime candidate for Southwest Airlines with his current hours and no instrument rating, but if you must, shrike commander.
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These are no joking around planes folks are recommending, 310, commanders etc. Flying around t storms, open water etc.

If you're not going to get your IFR, and if you're not logging hours (like 10 min) a month, you and your family would be better off on the airlines or in a RV with beds and TVs etc.

OR buy into a fractional commander or something, complete with a pro pilot.
 
Are you willing to spend $40k-$50k annually? If yes, go for the big, fire-breathing twin.

In fact, you could easily just pay someone to fly it for you.
 
I'm on my second twin now and I would also recommend an Aero Commander 500A, B or S. They're roomy and great load haulers and very benign to fly. I used to have a 520 and have only good things to say about the breed.

Twins don't cost $50K a year in maintenance. They might with fuel and engine funds. My average annuals have been $7-13K - and that's owning a complex turbocharged aircraft like the Aerostar.
 
Have your wife get her license and take 2 planes?
 
stratobee said:
I'm on my second twin now and I would also recommend an Aero Commander 500A, B or S. They're roomy and great load haulers and very benign to fly. I used to have a 520 and have only good things to say about the breed.

Twins don't cost $50K a year in maintenance. They might with fuel and engine funds. My average annuals have been $7-13K - and that's owning a complex turbocharged aircraft like the Aerostar.
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Ok, but what's the all-in cost (including gas) to run it 100 hrs/year? I'm curious more than anything.

Close to $50k?
 
Unless you can afford a cabin class twin or a turbine, you need to get your head wrapped around the fact that your goals are unrealistic. Taking on the responsibility of cramming that many people In a marginal aircraft is no small matter. Combine that with your inexperience, and it's just plain crazy!
I had a very similar mission profile, but with only two kids and two dogs. Our ranch is a 5 hour drive and we just got sick of it so 2 years ago I started on my PPL and just finished my IFR in May. Bought a turbo 206 in July and now at 170 hours I feel BARELY competent in taking on the responsibility of flying my family.
Flying solo or with a buddy is a non-event, but something about putting my babies in the back of that airplane makes me think long and hard about my skills and responsibility.
My airplane works great for my wife and I, the kids and the dogs. It's also a dead simple bird to fly. However, flying a large twin or a turbine at this point in my "career" would be a completely different story.
Think seriously about this.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
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Henning said:
You're in the same position as many, and really, the best thing for you is 3 planes, a 421, a 182, and a Pitts in a 8-12 share club. This gives everybody access to planes that meet a variety of missions, there is enough activity on all the planes to keep them running well. You hire a CFI/MEI/A&P/IA to manage the club.
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Best idea yet, of course comes from Henning.

Another option. Wife learns to fly, IFR rating, etc. Then buy 2 smaller airplanes, split the family for those "move everyone" trips in two airplanes. Alternate airplane use when you don't need both.
 
Brad Z said:
Gippsaero GA8. Like a big 182, or a mini Caravan. Still a little pricy on the used market but the OP didn't give a budget.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GippsAero_GA8_Airvan
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Oh gawd no! the only thing more uncomfortable is an RV6 with a sling seat. No place to put feet, seat agonizing, and not much baggage room due to W&B. I've got 5 hours as a pax and it was miserable even with and oregon aero cushion.
 
murphey said:
Oh gawd no! the only thing more uncomfortable is an RV6 with a sling seat. No place to put feet, seat agonizing, and not much baggage room due to W&B. I've got 5 hours as a pax and it was miserable even with and oregon aero cushion.
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How much leg room do the five ballerinas need?

Honestly, he's best off getting a Cessna 210 and making two trips for the few times he's carrying the entire gang.
 
Henning said:
If you are cautious and frugal you can operate a 421 100 hrs for $42,000.
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Ok, I was close. I think the OP needs to share his realistic annual operating budget.
 
dans2992 said:
Ok, I was close. I think the OP needs to share his realistic annual operating budget.
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Yep. An airplane is a time machine pure and simple. What is the time you can spend doing something that you could otherwise not have done worth to you? Can you afford it?

Nothing about aviation is cheap, more so when you have a good sized load to haul.

The funny thing is, GA could really be effective if it were 'communist'. You put in $2500 a year and pay an hourly rate and for your fuel. You can walk onto any airport and take the best plane of a fleet of 5 different types with varied capability, identical between types, and take it to where you need to go. Next person takes it from there. Why GA never developed was because it didn't have a 'Model T' period.
 
Sierra Victor said:
Unless you can afford a cabin class twin or a turbine, you need to get your head wrapped around the fact that your goals are unrealistic. Taking on the responsibility of cramming that many people In a marginal aircraft is no small matter. Combine that with your inexperience, and it's just plain crazy!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Just to clarify, this is not a short-term goal or plan. By all means, this plan will only be put into action well after I feel safe about it. The safety of my family will always be of utmost importance.

My question is more about planning for it down the road. What are the best options for that plan? I would like to start training in it as soon as possible to build time and experience. Or is the best option to start with a "trainer" that is similar and can transition into the best option later?

Mama has absolutely no desire to become a pilot so that option is off the table. Buy one and make multiple trips for those times needed -- this has been considered and I think still on the table.

I have $3k/mo "budgeted" for operating costs. Can anyone provide further details on the $42k/yr amount for me to understand better? I assume someone has some hard data for that figure.

As for initial purchase I'm hoping to be in the $150-200k range. This would be for the long term plane. If going the smaller/trainer type then looking in the $80k range that could easily sell in a few years without much loss. This would be the one I fly solo and maybe a friend or neighbor occassionally.

Don't flame me if entirely not within any reality. Just explain and educate for me to understand and make adjustments in my thoughts or plans or whatever is needed.

All responses thus far are greatly appreciated :yes:
 
I've owned two twins and here's my experience. On a capable bigger cabin class twin, you'll spend anywhere from $7-13K/year in annual. That's a vanilla annual without much needing replacement. If anything goes awry, you're looking at $20K or perhaps even more. You cn count on having to do a few vacuum pumps, magneto overhauls, cylinder overhauls, turbo overhauls, prop overhauls from time to time which can bump up the annual cost. You're looking at $150/hr in fuel on a twin. You're looking at $2-5K in insurance a year, depending on your risk tolerance (hull, no hull). Add hangarage and any engine funds to this and it's very easy to get to $40-50K in total.

That's the bad news.

The good news is that once you own, there are things you can defer that are not vital. So what if the fuel gauge is a little bouncy, or the throttles are slightly split, or the gear horn comes on too late? Doesn't need to be fixed now. Or if you chose to, just like I do, you don't need to keep any engine or prop reserves either. I deal with that when I cross that bridge, I might not even own the plane when TBO is coming up, so why save for it? In a rental however, you're always paying for these things up front. In an owned plane you can chose to pay for these on your own terms. Or not pay at all, if you so wish.
 
$175hr fuel
$45hr engine reserves
$135hr annual/other maint

That's $355hr.
Then you have fixed expenses like hangar and insurance. First year insurance will be impossible to get, however, if you employ a pro to fly with you the first 100 hrs this gets you insured under his credentials and time so figure around $8k or so. You treat every flight as a training flight so you file his fees as training cost rather than operational expense. Since in the early stages, you need 80 hrs or so with a CFI to get your ratings done, if you do them in the final aircraft then you don't need to do another 25-50 hrs in it when you finally upgrade, plus your aviation expenditure in both time and money was fulfilling its transportation function from the beginning.once you have 100hrs in type, you'll be good for the insurance at a nominal rate.

The wildcard expense is hangar space if you decide to hangar, many planes sit on the ramp, unless the hangars are extremely expensive or unavailable, I would suggest that a hangar is a wise expense to reduce long term costs.
 
kfvintx said:
Just to clarify, this is not a short-term goal or plan. By all means, this plan will only be put into action well after I feel safe about it. The safety of my family will always be of utmost importance.

My question is more about planning for it down the road. What are the best options for that plan? I would like to start training in it as soon as possible to build time and experience. Or is the best option to start with a "trainer" that is similar and can transition into the best option later?

Mama has absolutely no desire to become a pilot so that option is off the table. Buy one and make multiple trips for those times needed -- this has been considered and I think still on the table.

I have $3k/mo "budgeted" for operating costs. Can anyone provide further details on the $42k/yr amount for me to understand better? I assume someone has some hard data for that figure.

As for initial purchase I'm hoping to be in the $150-200k range. This would be for the long term plane. If going the smaller/trainer type then looking in the $80k range that could easily sell in a few years without much loss. This would be the one I fly solo and maybe a friend or neighbor occassionally.

Don't flame me if entirely not within any reality. Just explain and educate for me to understand and make adjustments in my thoughts or plans or whatever is needed.

All responses thus far are greatly appreciated :yes:
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I'm two months and 60 hours into ownership of a 310R after putting about 600 hours on a Saratoga.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1570131&postcount=62

Don't want to discourage you but between getting my multi rating, Iowa use tax, insurance, some supplies, charts, instruction, prebuy, and direct operating costs I've spent $35,000 in the last few months. I did buy a nicer plane with lots of upgrades already done, however the number above does not include any principle on the purchase. $20,000 of that was one time startup costs, but those are realities of this game.

Direct operating costs including fuel/oil, hangar, landing fees, a few oil changes, and some incidentals are running $165/hr so far.

On the plus side, I've got a supremely capable traveling machine and will go all of October and will not have been on an airline. First time in several years I could say that. Worth every damn penny so far.
 
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