Another Which One... but for family w 5 kids

From what I've read about them (never flown one, but looked at them when I was shopping) you almost certainly want the 300hp version if you really plan to fill the seats. Especially if your kids like it; they will keep getting heavier...
 
Put the family on minimal rations, thereby saving money and forcing everyone to loose weight. Then you have more avgas money and an easier time staying under gross.

Win-win.
 
What high performance single is available in the $150k price range that seats 7 and has enough payload?

There is none.

Well, there is the Cherokee6 with the 7th seat mod. If your mission involves 1hr fligths to the beach, that may work for a while, but for serious travel, I doubt it would work for more than one trip.

The question is whether you will ever need that big of a boat. Get an A36, you and 3 kids take the plane, wife and 2 more take southwest.

I have joked before that it would be cheaper to buy a minivan and hire a kid to drive your luggage and extra passengers around than it is to upgrade from plane X to plane Y because 'it can't hold 4 golf bags'.

Is there a difference between that plane and a cabin twin (air cond., etc.)? I'm just trying to make sure when comparing 30k to 50k each year that it is "apples to apples" comparison for the plane and what they can accomplish. I'm all for saving 20k per year, but I need the plane to accomplish my mission.

No, it is an apples to oranges comparison, but we are pilots, so we are good at that :D
I see this within the beech family of planes. There is a school of thought that says 'a twin is so much cheaper to buy than a A36, I can buy x gallons of avgas and still be ahead'. The numbers used to make that work usually involve a fully updated A36TN which then is compared with a ragged out B55 with timed out engines to make the 'twins are cheaper' message work. If you make the apples-apples comparison and look at a B58 of similar vintage and equipment, you will notice that that the twin is anything but cheaper in purchase. The other way to lie to yourself is to say 'oh, I dont allocate a reserve for the engines, I'll just sell the plane prior to that'. Sure, you can do that, but all you have done is to hide the engine writedown in the depreciation of the plane itself. Works for some, but wouldn't fly if you had to run this past an accountant.

Yes, I'm still a student. Not getting ahead of myself necessarily, but a few poeple have described me as one that likes to over-research this type of decision.:D

Try not to get caught in the 'paralysis by analysis' trap. Consider buying a plane that doesn't do the mission you think you have and start using it. Who knows, maybe wife and two daughters hate flying in your little death-trap.
 
For what it's worth, by the time I decided to buy my airplane, I had come around to this point of view.

Flying will be expensive.

I will lose money when I sell my airplane.

I will not recoup the cost of any upgrades I make.

If I ever upgrade to a larger/faster airplane, I will lose money in that process too.

Flying myself will pretty much never be cheaper than driving or flying commercial to the same place.

All these things considered, I accept these costs and am going to do it anyway.

;)

So - if you can afford it (and be honest), get the plane that really meets your mission. If you get one that kinda sorta barely meets it most of the time, you'll probably end up annoyed enough by the shortcomings to move up anyway, and that'll be more expensive than if you had bought a little bigger in the first place.

Of course I could be wrong; I don't know you well enough to really say - but that's my 2 cents, worth everything you paid for it. ;)
 
Consider buying a plane that doesn't do the mission you think you have and start using it. Who knows, maybe wife and two daughters hate flying in your little death-trap.

There is that, too - you could find that you don't need to carry around nearly as much as you think nearly as often, and if that's true, you're more likely to go tool around for fun on your own at 12 gph than at 25.
 
The ultimate short range big family plane is going to be a BN Islander.
 
There is that, too - you could find that you don't need to carry around nearly as much as you think nearly as often, and if that's true, you're more likely to go tool around for fun on your own at 12 gph than at 25.

25 ? Make that 38 for a Pa31-350.
 
25 ? Make that 38 for a Pa31-350.

I was pulling numbers out of nowhere, but even more so then. ;)

A pa-28-235 (or the comparable C182) seems like it would be ideal for you, except for the number of seats; 13 gph or so and 1350 useful load. How often is everyone going to wan to go together?

Or, as someone else said, maybe your other half would also get a certificate and then you could get two of them? :lol:
 
I don't think a C207 is going to cut it. A 207 is a total dog on the best of days, and you would probably be tired of it after a couple of long trips. By the time you got everyone in the airplane, and enough fuel to go somewhere, you would have no room/weight left for all the bags. I can't imagine what climb out at gross on a hot day would be like with half a dozen females in the back.:rofl: You really need a cabin-class pressurized twin, with a potty in the back as a necessity. I wish you luck! :)
 
As mentioned above, the Piper 6 family with the 300hp engine appears to be your best option without breaking the bank and/or moving to an aircraft that may be difficult to stay proficient in (especially a cabin class twin with a fresh PP ticket :yikes:) If you haven't already, read the Killing Zone. It is a great book for someone in the early stages of their flying career and may even influence what you ultimately choose.
 
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So this kinda brings up a point I have been struggling with....

Almost everyone quotes costs as per hour for operating. I fully understand this and why this is the standard.

However, when trips between 2 cities is the standard mission, I am more concerend with cost of that trip and considering a twin can accomplish in less time at a higher per hour cost, shouldn't this be taken into consideration as total cost comparison? And for flying the same number of missions the slower plane reaches TBO sooner since taking longer each flight.

Really doesn't matter I guess..... I'm just trying to rationalize and justify to myself what I already really know is most likely to happen :D

Ultimately, the $/hour just an easy way of looking at it. The true costs are divided into fixed (insurance, hangar, annual) and variable (fuel and additional MX). If you fly a plane 0 hours per year, it has an infinite cost per hour. The other reality is that the first year will cost more in most cases, and then after that you'll have years when you basically fly for fuel, and years when you put a lot of money in. These averages just help you give an idea of budgeting, and everyone's situation is different. If you are an A&P yourself and have a cheap hangar, your fixed costs will be much lower. Fuel is the other big variable since around the country 100LL can range from under $5 to over $8.

You are right that it goes into a $/mile eventually, which you'll figure out, and in part of the budgeting you need to figure out total trip cost. When I'm figuring out what a trip is going to cost (something I have to do regularly for the non-profit), it basically comes down to an assumption of average speed including average winds and then my average hourly cost. It works pretty well, and I'm usually within 5%. In the end, though, the fast plane is going to typically cost you more $/mile. :)

I also don't think you're getting ahead of yourself, this is just the sort of issue that comes up when you have a family of more than 2 kids. Once you get to that point, a 4-place single simply won't cut it, and while 3 kids could work in some of the 6-place singles, a Malibu is really the only one that will work for 4 kids. At 5, the single-engine options are a complete joke unless you go turboprop. I would suggest you spend some time starting out with your ratings in the smaller planes, but I bought my Aztec as my first plane at 225 hours total time, and I was considering a 340, so not appreciably different than what you're looking at. I was first talking to people about buying a 310 when I had under 100 hours from a friend of mine.

The catch here is really making sure that you have a good instructor (who turns into a babysitter) for at a hundred hours (my thought is several hundred) if you jump into a pressurized piston twin. Your family is on board, a good instructor is the cheapest insurance you can buy. The NTSB is riddled with fatalities where an entire family (usually of the same size as yours) gets taken out when a single pilot, usually pretty inexperienced, is flying a big and capable aircraft (what the mission requires) and has no idea what he's doing. The recent PC12 thread shows that, then there was the TBM a few years ago in NJ, and a 421 that killed an entire family over a very simple engine failure at cruise. The experienced pilot more than anything will help you with the decision making, weather avoidance, and failure management that will come up as you are building that skill set yourself. I had one such student in a Chieftain who I spent about 100 hours with. Not only did we have a blast flying together, but I was able to teach him the sort of things that are best learned slowly over time with experience. The firehose method only goes so far. Number of hours per year is a concern for proficiency as well, and if you don't fly much then the babysitter may not go away, but that's fine. Two pilots in these planes really is better.‎

As far as the plane itself goes, the GTSIO-520 in the 421 is generally defended by its owners and operators because they love the quiet operation, but it has proven over the years to be more cantankerous and more expensive to operate than its direct drive equivalent, the 414. The speed is not appreciably different between the two planes (and a RAM VII 414 will do the same speed as an equivalent age 421). The big issue with 421s is that they seem to have a higher failure rate (especially right after rotation), I suspect in large part to their tendency to lose prime on the oil pump, which if undetected will kill the bearings and take out the engine at the worst possible moment. The Navajo (Lycoming powered) is a real workhorse and a simpler overall airplane, and I think more reliable. If you don't need pressurization, it's a good option. You'd probably want a Chieftain, but for me personally, I'd go with a short body and Panther conversion.‎

Feel free to PM ‎me if you want to discuss options. Once I bought my Aztec, I never turned back to piston singles. After all, iFlyTwins.
 
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