Another Interesting St. Maarten Landing

Nicely done!
 
Sounded like someone dumped the throttle trying to save it and the other guy NOPED with TOGA.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
 
ircphoenix said:
Sounded like someone dumped the throttle trying to save it and the other guy NOPED with TOGA.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I can see the really senior pilot quietly lean forward, press the button and then look at the other guy and go "Nope".
 
I flew into Juliana on Friday under outstanding conditions, although the beach was unoccupied. Saturday was generally bleak, so the poor conditions on the AA approach are not surprising.
 
islandboy said:
I flew into Juliana on Friday under outstanding conditions, although the beach was unoccupied. Saturday was generally bleak, so the poor conditions on the AA approach are not surprising.
Click to expand...

I've never seen the visibility that bad before. The worse I've seen was a tropical system and even then I could still see across the bay from my parents place.
 
ARFlyer said:
I can see the really senior pilot quietly lean forward, press the button and then look at the other guy and go "Nope".
Click to expand...

It was an Airways bird - the 64 year old CA pushed the button for the 59 year old FO. ;) ;)
 
Last edited:
Fearless Tower said:
They're starting to get some younger blood. I know a guy who is under 40 and in class at AA right now.
Click to expand...

Oh definitely, but especially when talking about the CLT base, the reputation remains. Which reminds me of a joke:

Three airline pilots are having beers at a local watering hole, and each are about to retire in the coming weeks. They begin talking about what they're going to do on their retirement flight.

The Delta pilot says, "I'm going to do a low pass in the 767 over my house in Atlanta. My family will be out in the front yard waving as I go rocketing overhead. What the hell is the company going to do? Fire me? I'm retiring anyway!"

The United pilot says, "That sounds great. I'm planning on taking my Airbus underneath the Golden Gate Bridge before landing at SFO. I've always wanted to do that!"

The US Airways pilot says, "Those are some great ideas. But on my last flight, I'm gonna reach over and turn off the seat belt sign, and I'm not even going to ask my captain about it first!"
 
GlennAB1 said:
Good call. They were gonna crash.
Click to expand...

Reminds me of my CFI. One day when my approach was a lot too low in the Seminole (is that approach light tower supposed to be up here with us?) his understated debriefing comment later was, "If the trend is toward a crash, fix the trend. Right now."

He has a way of reeling you out just enough slack to let you scare yourself enough that you won't ever ever forget it, without harming either of you or their airplane.

That was the one time I ever let the Seminole get low and slow, a bad combo in a twin. That tower was too **** close.
 
ARFlyer said:
I can see the really senior pilot quietly lean forward, press the button and then look at the other guy and go "Nope".
Click to expand...

At my airline just as often those roles are swapped with the older Capt saying "I can make this work" and the younger FO saying, "I don't think so, go around."
 
Last edited:
Shepherd said:
The importance of the stabilized approach.
Click to expand...

Well, sort of. This video is showing the last, maybe 300 feet of the approach, and to my eyes it looks like everything is good as they're coming out of the clouds.

Generally the issue with an unstable approach at the airlines is what is going on prior to 500 feet -- e.g. late to slow down, late to get configured, late to capture the glidepath. It doesn't usually refer to someone who is all configured, on speed, landing check complete, and just poorly following the glideslope or localizer down to touchdown.

It looks to me like a little chasing of the localizer in close in addition to a left-to-right crosswind got them in a bad situation...and for a moment the pilot flying thought he could fix it end game.
 
Hacker said:
Well, sort of. This video is showing the last, maybe 300 feet of the approach, and to my eyes it looks like everything is good as they're coming out of the clouds.

Generally the issue with an unstable approach at the airlines is what is going on prior to 500 feet -- e.g. late to slow down, late to get configured, late to capture the glidepath. It doesn't usually refer to someone who is all configured, on speed, landing check complete, and just poorly following the glideslope or localizer down to touchdown.

It looks to me like a little chasing of the localizer in close in addition to a left-to-right crosswind got them in a bad situation...and for a moment the pilot flying thought he could fix it end game.
Click to expand...

No ILS on that field. It only has a VOR and a LNAV GPS. But I think your right. I think he popped out, noticed he was off track, and tried to correct a bit to aggressively. The vis is almost never that bad.

The only major crash at St. Maarten was a result of conditions like this and a fuel starved DC-9. Airline thought it was smart to fly a DC-9 NYC to SXM DIRECT!!! It's also one of the few if only successful open ocean ditching of a modern airliner.
 
PUT THE DAMN NOSE DOWN. That's how you stall a large transport airplane.

Darn good thing that was a 757 at the end of the flight light on fuel -
 
Last edited:
Does anyone who has actually flown one of these know how long the lag is between pushing the throttles forward and having the plane climb? I'm trying to figure out where in the video plan B started.
 
Wingsofglass said:
Does anyone who has actually flown one of these know how long the lag is between pushing the throttles forward and having the plane climb? I'm trying to figure out where in the video plan B started.
Click to expand...


I have several thousand hours in RB211 powered 757s and the lag isn't very bad at all. You also aren't usually at idle anywhere on final below 1000' until you pull the power out for touchdown. Despite what the poster above you wrote, they were nowhere near stalling. They were not, however, stable on short final so a go around was obviously the correct choice to make. Really the only choice. It's hard to tell in the video if they were caught up in some shearing/gust or the captain just rested his belly on the yoke. In any case, it came apart at the end and they did the right thing. Didn't try to save a bad approach, just took it around the patch to try again.
 
comanchepilot said:
PUT THE DAMN NOSE DOWN. That's how you stall a large transport airplane.

Darn good thing that was a 757 at the end of the flight light on fuel -
Click to expand...
I'm going throw this out and suggest that if we put you in the sim and had you perform go-arounds in the jet, the attitude wouldn't look all that different.
 
Rex Kramer said:
It's hard to tell in the video if they were caught up in some shearing/gust or the captain just rested his belly on the yoke. In any case, it came apart at the end and they did the right thing. Didn't try to save a bad approach, just took it around the patch to try again.
Click to expand...
A FedEx guy on another board suggested that they may have been cross-controlled when they broke out and what we see could have been relaxing those inputs as they began the go-around sequence.
 
The really bad visibility tends to be more of a wet season (about June - December) phenomenon, and it's often patchy rather than widespread.

ARFlyer said:
I've never seen the visibility that bad before. The worse I've seen was a tropical system and even then I could still see across the bay from my parents place.
Click to expand...
 
islandboy said:
The really bad visibility tends to be more of a wet season (about June - December) phenomenon, and it's often patchy rather than widespread.
Click to expand...

Is the island green or brown this year? A few years ago it was a beautiful green but went back to dusty brown the following year...
 
Fearless Tower said:
I'm going throw this out and suggest that if we put you in the sim and had you perform go-arounds in the jet, the attitude wouldn't look all that different.
Click to expand...
that airplane staggered quite badly as the power was coming up - you put the airplane in the climb attitude when you have the power you are looking for spooled up - until then - you don't give up airspeed for altitude. You put the nose down while the power is spooling up and use the nose attitude to MAINTAIN altitude, you are NOT going to climb until your power is up and your airspeed is rising.

I agree that the climb attitude is probably right where the nose was - but the airplane was sliding back and forth indicating a loss of directional stability - which is what happens in swept wing airplanes as they approach stall speed.
 
Mostly brown right now...but, it can vary week-to-week.

ARFlyer said:
Is the island green or brown this year? A few years ago it was a beautiful green but went back to dusty brown the following year...
Click to expand...
 
comanchepilot said:
that airplane staggered quite badly as the power was coming up - you put the airplane in the climb attitude when you have the power you are looking for spooled up - until then - you don't give up airspeed for altitude. You put the nose down while the power is spooling up and use the nose attitude to MAINTAIN altitude, you are NOT going to climb until your power is up and your airspeed is rising.

I agree that the climb attitude is probably right where the nose was - but the airplane was sliding back and forth indicating a loss of directional stability - which is what happens in swept wing airplanes as they approach stall speed.
Click to expand...



They obviously botched the approach at the end, but that 757 was nowhere near stalling. Not even close. The deck angle near a stall is considerably higher. And yes I'm factoring in the descent angle he has going.
 
comanchepilot said:
that airplane staggered quite badly as the power was coming up
Click to expand...

All the movement I saw of that 757 was deliberate and unlike the falling leaf act you see when a swept-wing jet approaches stall AOA.

FWIW, the go-around procedure in an airliner is a choreographed procedure between the PF, the PM, the TOGA button, the Flight Director, etc. Given how frequently go-arounds are practiced in recur training (and perhaps how frequently they're done for real with unstable approaches), it is not really likely that you're going to find someone at a major airline who is just going to yank up the nose in a go-around without the power to allow such a movement. They're no-kidding following the FD pitch needles, which are programmed to pitch for a specific airspeed in the go-around, and the autothrottles are spooling up to set TOGA power as soon as that TOGA button/lever is pushed.

Remember also that in these jets with the engines mounted below wing, there is a notable pitching moment up as the engines spool up.

Although I understand the 777 (and perhaps some other newer aircraft) have flight control software that counteracts this tendency automatically.
 
Last edited:
I'm sure they use VNAV PATH. My airline has been doing it for at least 10 years.

It doesn't necessarily drop you off lines up with the runway, depending on the approach.
 
In the 757 there is little, if any, need to "pull back" on a go-around. The increased engine thrust raises the nose for you. In fact, if hand flying, you have to add nose-down trim.
 
Hacker said:
Does AA not fly all their nonprecision approaches using a CDFA?
Click to expand...

Our division doesn't do CDFA. We're waiting on approval from the FAA. We're still doing dive and drive which sucks. AA wants us doing CDFA and VNAV but it seems our management is dragging their feet.

I bet at some point Daddy is going to tell Timmy to do it!
 
ARFlyer said:
Our division doesn't do CDFA. We're waiting on approval from the FAA. We're still doing dive and drive which sucks. AA wants us doing CDFA and VNAV but it seems our management is dragging their feet.

I bet at some point Daddy is going to tell Timmy to do it!
Click to expand...


Division? Does all of American (mainline) do dive and drive? I'm surprised y'all haven't switched over yet. VNAV is infinitely safer.
 
Rex Kramer said:
Division? Does all of American (mainline) do dive and drive? I'm surprised y'all haven't switched over yet. VNAV is infinitely safer.
Click to expand...

I'm at a lowly Wholly Owned right now. :D

Our aircraft can do LPV, VNAV and CDFA. However, we're blocked by our POH from using VNAV, CDFA, and LPV on landings. It's either ILS or dive and drive...

Trust me I wish we could do it! It would save the: Autopilot ALT, V/S -1.5, ALT, V/S -1.5, ALT, V/S -1.5 crap all the way dow!
 
Rex Kramer said:
Division? Does all of American (mainline) do dive and drive? I'm surprised y'all haven't switched over yet. VNAV is infinitely safer.
Click to expand...

I think he means an AA regional carrier. I don't think anyone is diving and driving at American.

EDIT: Just took at peek at OM 1 for the 757, and yeah, they're using VNAV. It looks to me like the older US Airways birds (which the one in the video was) can't do the RNAV approach, but can still use VNAV for the VOR approach.
 
Last edited:
ARFlyer said:
Yep! I have an AA Emp #, travel, badge, etc, but I'm under a Wholly Owned contract.
Click to expand...

Cool! Until recently, I used to fly with pilots that flowed from our wholly owned carriers all the time. It's funny how different the cultures from the three airlines were - I could usually tell where someone came from after the first couple of legs. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top