Another crazy flight, but didn't have the cameras running for this one

Salty

Salty

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Salty
Sitting right seat with my buddy flying. He's doing touch n goes at KZPH, an airport in Florida famous for skydiving, gliders, trikes, and gyros. I avoid the place for that reason, but he was PIC.

We're at about 400 feet on upwind of 23 (right traffic) after a touch-n-go and someone calls "206 on right base for 5, going to enter right downwind for 23, got the skycatcher (that's us) in sight". My buddy turns downwind close in and stays at 800 feet (behind a trike at 800 ahead of us). He didn't have much other choice as the 206 would be barreling in front of us soon. The trike calls base for 23, then my buddy calls downwind #2 for 23. The 206 then calls downwind #2 for 23 behind the trike. Uh, that's what we just said!

A second later I see the 206 filling the window blowing past us within 50 feet. He was a hundred feet or more above us, but he wouldn't be able to see us at that point. He turns base right in front of us, and my buddy finally bails out of the pattern.

I curse at him. Yes, I cursed. He says "I've been communicating the whole time". The trike chimes in and says "You did run right over him". I cursed at him again.

Still making me mad typing it out.
 
This kind of stuff happens so much where I fly, I don't even bother getting worked up about it anymore. Different type aircraft at different altitudes, flying different size patterns can be confusing at the best. Add in an entitled "real" pilot, flying a "real" airplane, and things sometimes get interesting. But, those guys are usually easy to spot. I just stay outta their way. Karma catches up to them soon enough.
 
I'm reading this, and unless I'm missing something, I don't see the 206 being the entitled plane. Not sure I see any entitlement. I'm not sure I could safely fly a pattern behind a Skycatcher if they are as slow as I think they are. I think Salty's buddy turning in front of the 206 was the bad move here. If I hear someone call base for 5, that's a xwind for 23. extend the Departure leg, and turn parallel/behind the traffic on crosswind.
 
Salty said:
Sitting right seat with my buddy flying. He's doing touch n goes at KZPH, an airport in Florida famous for skydiving, gliders, trikes, and gyros. I avoid the place for that reason, but he was PIC.

We're at about 400 feet on upwind of 23 (right traffic) after a touch-n-go and someone calls "206 on right base for 5, going to enter right downwind for 23, got the skycatcher (that's us) in sight". My buddy turns downwind close in and stays at 800 feet (behind a trike at 800 ahead of us). He didn't have much other choice as the 206 would be barreling in front of us soon. The trike calls base for 23, then my buddy calls downwind #2 for 23. The 206 then calls downwind #2 for 23 behind the trike. Uh, that's what we just said!

A second later I see the 206 filling the window blowing past us within 50 feet. He was a hundred feet or more above us, but he wouldn't be able to see us at that point. He turns base right in front of us, and my buddy finally bails out of the pattern.

I curse at him. Yes, I cursed. He says "I've been communicating the whole time". The trike chimes in and says "You did run right over him". I cursed at him again.

Still making me mad typing it out.
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I was at Piknpig the other weekend. I was 4th in a very short line behind three others. We all showed up within three minutes of each other. It was a little too chaotic for me. I pulled out of the approaching herd and did 360’s until everyone else landed.
 
Good that it was a safe outcome, but I can relate to your frustration. The problem with the "Big Sky Theory" is that it becomes far littler in the vicinity of airports!!
 
It gets fun when you have a mix of speeds. My ride isn't as fast as the Skycatcher so working the pattern when there is a hotrod like a 172 in the pattern can be a challenge.
 
EdFred said:
I'm reading this, and unless I'm missing something, I don't see the 206 being the entitled plane. Not sure I see any entitlement. I'm not sure I could safely fly a pattern behind a Skycatcher if they are as slow as I think they are. I think Salty's buddy turning in front of the 206 was the bad move here. If I hear someone call base for 5, that's a xwind for 23. extend the Departure leg, and turn parallel/behind the traffic on crosswind.
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Let's see. We were lower. We were on the right. We were already in the pattern. He flew through the skydive area. Which right of way would you like to invent to give the 206 because we had all the right of ways I've ever heard of. And no, "I'm faster" doesn't give you right of way.

We had no way to turn to get out of his way while climbing off the runway. We couldn't turn left, he was on the left, we'd be turning right into him, and it was right pattern, skydiving occurs on the left. We couldn't go straight, he was aiming for where we would be if we'd gone straight. The only option we had was to turn right.

We didn't turn in front of the 206, we turned crosswind while taking off, the 206 could have easily blended into the traffic by simply flying a little further to the west and, heaven forbid, entering on the 45 like the AIM suggests. By then, we would have been well out of his way.
 
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
It gets fun when you have a mix of speeds. My ride isn't as fast as the Skycatcher so working the pattern when there is a hotrod like a 172 in the pattern can be a challenge.
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We were actually having to adjust for the slow speeds of the trike and gyro that landed ahead. The difference is we adjusted and didn't endanger them just because they were slow.
 
Salty said:
Let's see. We were lower. We were on the right. We were already in the pattern. He flew through the skydive area. Which right of way would you like to invent to give the 206 because we had all the right of ways I've ever heard of. And no, "I'm faster" doesn't give you right of way.

We had no way to turn to get out of his way while climbing off the runway. We couldn't turn left, he was on the left, we'd be turning right into him, and it was right pattern, skydiving occurs on the left. We couldn't go straight, he was aiming for where we would be if we'd gone straight. The only option we had was to turn right.

We didn't turn in front of the 206, we turned crosswind while taking off, the 206 could have easily blended into the traffic by simply flying a little further to the west and, heaven forbid, entering on the 45 like the AIM suggests. By then, we would have been well out of his way.
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Sounds like you and your buddy need to re read the right of way rules and understand them.
You weren't landing, so your "we were lower" is out as a right of way.
You weren't at the same altitude, so the "we were to the right" is also out since that has to do with converging aircraft at the same altitude. His altitude was established. Yours wasn't, you continued to climb up to 800 from 400, and as you said he was still 100' above you.

The 206 however was in the wrong when he flew over the top of you, he should have passed you on the inside. However since "well clear" is a judgment call...

Want to know what to do, you don't turn. You extend your departure leg. But from your response, I think I figured out who the entitled plane is now.

Here's the reg again

(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear.

(c) In distress. An aircraft in distress has the right-of-way over all other air traffic.

(d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way. If the aircraft are of different categories—

(1) A balloon has the right-of-way over any other category of aircraft;

(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, powered parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.

(3) An airship has the right-of-way over a powered parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.

However, an aircraft towing or refueling other aircraft has the right-of-way over all other engine-driven aircraft.

(e) Approaching head-on. When aircraft are approaching each other head-on, or nearly so, each pilot of each aircraft shall alter course to the right.

(f) Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.
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EdFred said:
I'm reading this, and unless I'm missing something, I don't see the 206 being the entitled plane. Not sure I see any entitlement. I'm not sure I could safely fly a pattern behind a Skycatcher if they are as slow as I think they are. I think Salty's buddy turning in front of the 206 was the bad move here. If I hear someone call base for 5, that's a xwind for 23. extend the Departure leg, and turn parallel/behind the traffic on crosswind.
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I interpreted the OP as the 206 calling what is basically a cross-wind entry with the OPs aircraft already at 400' altitude on takeoff. That puts the 206 somewhere unexpected in a traffic pattern that already has slower airplanes established.

But, that being said, we only know one side of the story.
 
I'm seeing this more and more when I fly ... when I trained back in 2006, we'd stuff 8 or 9 in the pattern without a hiccup. Now anything above 2 causes problems ... I think guys are watching the ADSB harder than eyes outside and freaking. I did get cut off on short final by the AC holding short pulling out onto the runway right in front of me last week - not sure how that fits into this conversation.
 
wilkersk said:
I interpreted the OP as the 206 calling what is basically a cross-wind entry with the OPs aircraft already at 400' altitude on takeoff. That puts the 206 somewhere unexpected in a traffic pattern that already has slower airplanes established.

But, that being said, we only know one side of the story.
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Crosswind is an unexpected place now? Should every departure be a leave the area and enter on the 45? Because you know....pattern has a crosswind. I enter crosswind all the time because the 45 is probably the worst entry into the pattern possible. But when I enter crosswind I will call it "crosswind over the numbers" or "crosswind 1/2 mile out"... the 206 called base, I know where that is...and turned it into a crosswind for the opposite direction runway...everyone should know where that is.
 
Salty said:
Sitting right seat with my buddy flying. He's doing touch n goes at KZPH, an airport in Florida famous for skydiving, gliders, trikes, and gyros. I avoid the place for that reason, but he was PIC....
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salty: I don't go to ZPH, it's a bee's nest
other dude: hey salty, wanna go to ZPH? I'm flying.
salty: sure, sounds great!
 
eman1200 said:
salty: I don't go to ZPH, it's a bee's nest
other dude: hey salty, wanna go to ZPH? I'm flying.
salty: sure, sounds great!
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Nice story. But it's fiction.
 
danhagan said:
I'm seeing this more and more when I fly ... when I trained back in 2006, we'd stuff 8 or 9 in the pattern without a hiccup. Now anything above 2 causes problems ... I think guys are watching the ADSB harder than eyes outside and freaking. I did get cut off on short final by the AC holding short pulling out onto the runway right in front of me last week - not sure how that fits into this conversation.
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I've flown at this airport in a glider with 4 others in the pattern, gliders being towed, and skydivers falling out of the sky. If people behave like civilized adults it's not a problem. If someone comes barreling into the pattern at full throttle and thinks "communicating" is all he needs to do and everyone else should just get out of his way, that is a problem.
 
EdFred said:
Crosswind is an unexpected place now? Should every departure be a leave the area and enter on the 45? Because you know....pattern has a crosswind. I enter crosswind all the time because the 45 is probably the worst entry into the pattern possible. But when I enter crosswind I will call it "crosswind over the numbers" or "crosswind 1/2 mile out"... the 206 called base, I know where that is...and turned it into a crosswind for the opposite direction runway...everyone should know where that is.
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So, you think it's ok to enter the pattern in the crosswind when a plane just took off the runway? Seriously? And you shouldn't attempt to space yourself at all, just let the other planes get out of your way?
 
Salty said:
So, you think it's ok to enter the pattern in the crosswind when a plane just took off the runway? Seriously? And you shouldn't attempt to space yourself at all, let the other planes get out of your way?
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Yep, do it all the time. If I have you in sight, no problemo. Of course, I would have altered course so I would have been well above and inside you. I think the last time I entered crosswind we had 3 in the pattern, and 1 rollin, rollin, rollin on the runway.
 
EdFred said:
Sounds like you and your buddy need to re read the right of way rules and understand them.
You weren't landing, so your "we were lower" is out as a right of way.
You weren't at the same altitude, so the "we were to the right" is also out since that has to do with converging aircraft at the same altitude. His altitude was established. Yours wasn't, you continued to climb up to 800 from 400, and as you said he was still 100' above you.

The 206 however was in the wrong when he flew over the top of you, he should have passed you on the inside. However since "well clear" is a judgment call...

Want to know what to do, you don't turn. You extend your departure leg. But from your response, I think I figured out who the entitled plane is now.

Here's the reg again
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I was just listing all the right of ways. None of them gave him the right of way.
 
EdFred said:
Yep. If I have you in sight, no problemo.
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You don't have me in sight when you're above me. You'll be descending right into me if I don't get out of your way. Guess I'd be cursing at you too.
 
EdFred said:
Yep, do it all the time. If I have you in sight, no problemo. Of course, I would have altered course so I would have been well above and inside you. I think the last time I entered crosswind we had 3 in the pattern, and 1 rollin, rollin, rollin on the runway.
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So what happens when you do that and then a bigger, faster plane does it to yuo? And you're stuck in the middle? Enjoy that.

Forcing others to leave the pattern simply because you don't want to time your entry is douchebaggery supreme.
 
Your flight paths were diverging by 90°, soon to be 180°, but your buddy decided to turn without knowing where the traffic was.
 
Salty said:
So what happens when you do that and then a bigger, faster plane does it too? And you're stuck in the middle? Enjoy that.
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A bigger faster plane is at 1500' AGL. I'll be below and inside him.
 
dmspilot said:
Your flight paths were diverging by 90°, soon to be 180°, but your buddy decided to turn without knowing where the traffic was.
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We had it in sight. He had no other choice.
 
Salty said:
You don't have me in sight when you're above me. You'll be descending right into me if I don't get out of your way. Guess I'd be cursing at you too.
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Yes I do. I've watched you roll the entire length of the runway, and you'll be under me by 400' or more when I cross over the centerline.
 
EdFred said:
A bigger faster plane is at 1500' AGL. I'll be below and inside him.
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And he'll descend right on you because you are both doing whatever you want and expecting others to get out of your way. Enjoy that.
 
EdFred said:
Yes I do. I've watched you roll the entire length of the runway, and you'll be under me by 400' or more when I cross over the centerline.
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That's not the scenario. The 206 flew into the downwind right over top of us until he could not see us.
 
Salty said:
We had it in sight. He had no other choice.
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No other choice but to turn? Was there a mountain or regulatory airspace off the departure end of the runway?
 
Salty said:
And he'll descend right on you because you are both doing whatever you want and expecting others to get out of your way. Enjoy that.
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How so? If he's bigger and faster he's higher and outside of me. You seem to have problems thinking in 3 dimensions.
 
OH boy.
 
Salty said:
That's not the scenario. The 206 flew into the downwind right over top of us until he could not see us.
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No. he was at 900' and you climbed into him.
 
EdFred said:
How so? If he's bigger and faster he's higher and outside of me. You seem to have problems thinking in 3 dimensions.
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You seem to not understand that you cannot see a plane below you.
 
dmspilot said:
No other choice but to turn? Was there a mountain or regulatory airspace off the departure end of the runway?
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Yes, I'm still wondering why it's impossible to extend the departure leg. (tampa's class B is 3000' there)
 
Nice to know there are so many pilots that will screw over someone that's taking off so they can land 10 seconds sooner.
 
Salty said:
You seem to not understand that you cannot see a plane below you.
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I see them below me all the time. Just saw one pass 2000' below me heading the opposite direction yesterday, and I'm in a low wing.
 
Salty said:
Nice to know there are so many pilots that will screw over someone that's taking off so they can land 10 seconds sooner.
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Nice to know there are pilots that will climb into another airplane because they think they know the right of way rules. Again, what prevented you from flying straight ahead and staying below TPA? The 206 was already at pattern altitude.
 
I was there, he could not see us. Period.
 
Salty said:
Nice to know there are so many pilots that will screw over someone that's taking off so they can land 10 seconds sooner.
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I've extended my departure leg many times to accommodate traffic and have never felt screwed.
 
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