another can I log it?

korben88

korben88

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Troy
I'm going on my aerobatic fligh that I won tomorrow and just wondering if I can log that as dual (provided the pilot is a CFI of course).
 
Larry in TN said:
That is incorrect. Endorsements for acting as PIC are not ratings. They are not required for logging PIC if the unendorsed pilot is rated in the category, class, and type (if applicable).
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1. He is still a student- No SEL cert.
2. He would not be sole manipulator of controls- no PIC

So he could not legally log this on his own.
 
jordane93 said:
How come he can't log the flight? I'm confused.
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Point I was trying to drive home, was that he alone could not go home and log the flight as he does with his solo flights because he is not rated for SEL at this point. The flight can be logged, but his CFI will have to log it for him as dual given. I just didn't want the thought to be gathered that he could just go and fill out his own logbook for the flight. Apologies for the confusion.
 
Ryanb said:
Point I was trying to drive home, was that he alone could not go home and log the flight as he does with his solo flights because he is not rated for SEL at this point. The flight can be logged, but his CFI will have to log it for him as dual given. I just didn't want the thought to be gathered that he could just go and fill out his own logbook for the flight. Apologies for the confusion.
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I agree however I don't think that's what the OP meant by can he log the flight.
 
jordane93 said:
I agree however I don't think that's what the OP meant by can he log the flight.
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Yeah not sure. I probably took it too in depth, I just didn't want him to think it could be logged like he logs his solo flights.
 
Ryanb said:
1. He is still a student- No SEL cert.
2. He would not be sole manipulator of controls- no PIC

So he could not legally log this on his own.
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I was addressing your statement that his lack of a tailwheel endorsement was a factor. It is not, regardless of student pilot vs. private pilot. That's why I only quoted that portion of your original message.
 
For students of PPSEL, its kind of pointless to log "fun flying" (as opposed to flying for PPSEL syllabus) like aerobatics and tailwheel. There really isn't a requirement to log it and if you are headed to a career fewer hours to Private look good...
Not the big a deal either way.
 
Ryanb said:
Point I was trying to drive home, was that he alone could not go home and log the flight as he does with his solo flights because he is not rated for SEL at this point. The flight can be logged, but his CFI will have to log it for him as dual given. I just didn't want the thought to be gathered that he could just go and fill out his own logbook for the flight. Apologies for the confusion.
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But the answer is it has nothing whatsoever to do with it being a tailwheel. That's a red herring. If he had a private ASEL, he could log it. If he only has a student pilot certificate, he can't log ANY dual. Matters not what the gear configuration or horsepower is.
 
flyingron said:
But the answer is it has nothing whatsoever to do with it being a tailwheel. That's a red herring. If he had a private ASEL, he could log it. If he only has a student pilot certificate, he can't log ANY dual. Matters not what the gear configuration or horsepower is.
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Read post #9 again Ron. I never said anything about the OP logging dual time for himself, I tried making it clear that the CFI would have to do that. I think this is becoming misconstrued.
 
Ryanb said:
Point I was trying to drive home, was that he alone could not go home...... The flight can be logged, but his CFI will have to log it for him as dual given.
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I just want to be clear!
Whenever I have a lesson with my CFI, I log the flight (write it in the book) and he signs it. Is this not correct?
 
korben88 said:
I just want to be clear!
Whenever I have a lesson with my CFI, I log the flight (write it in the book) and he signs it. Is this not correct?
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Yes it's correct.
 
korben88 said:
Thank you, just wanted to be sure.
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The whole thing I was intending to get through was that, yes the flight can be logged, but it can't be logged as PIC because you are not SEL rated at this point and from what I assume do not have a TW endorsement. Have the CFI log it for you giving dual instruction. Hope that makes it clear, and my apologies for the confusion.
 
coloradobluesky said:
For students of PPSEL, its kind of pointless to log "fun flying" (as opposed to flying for PPSEL syllabus) like aerobatics and tailwheel. There really isn't a requirement to log it and if you are headed to a career fewer hours to Private look good...
Not the big a deal either way.
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I'm not on the career path, all this is just "fun flying". I guess it could look like I was counting towards my 20 hrs of dual received, but I've already hit that requirement and just started cross county training.
 
MAKG1 said:
If the space shuttle lands at the Cape, can the PIC log the flight as XC? And is it glider or multi?
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Can you log multi engine time in a semi if you have a separate engine for a generator?
No, because just like the space shuttle, it's not an airplane.
 
Larry in TN said:
A tailwheel endorsement has no affect on a pilot's ability to log flight time in a tailwheel aircraft.
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Are you just wanting to beat a dead horse Larry? I have said he can log the time, but he cannot log it as PIC without a TW endorsement or a SEL rating. So it does have some affect.
 
Ryanb said:
he cannot log it as PIC without a TW endorsement
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The tailwheel endorsement is never required to log time in a tailwheel airplane. Doesn't matter what pilot certificate the pilot has.

The tailwheel endorsement is only required to ACT as PIC in a tailwheel airplane.

There is no connection at all between tailwheel endorsements and logging flight time in tailwheel airplanes.
 
Larry in TN said:
The tailwheel endorsement is never required to log time in a tailwheel airplane. Doesn't matter what pilot certificate the pilot has.

The tailwheel endorsement is only required to ACT as PIC in a tailwheel airplane.

There is no connection at all between tailwheel endorsements and logging flight time in tailwheel airplanes.
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Did you not read anything I just wrote? One cannot log the time as PIC if they have neither a SEL rating or TW endorsement. He has neither in this case.
 
Ryanb said:
One cannot log the time as PIC if they have neither a SEL rating or TW endorsement.
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A tailwheel endorsement has no relationship to logging time in a tailwheel airplane. There is no reason for it to be mentioned in this conversation. Including it will only confuse more people with regarding to logging vs. acting as PIC.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Can you log multi engine time in a semi if you have a separate engine for a generator?
No, because just like the space shuttle, it's not an airplane.
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Read 14 CFR 1.1. It meets all the requirements to be an airplane except for the unstated one that "engine driven" and "flight in air" must occur at the same time.
 
Ryanb said:
Did you not read anything I just wrote? One cannot log the time as PIC if they have neither a SEL rating or TW endorsement. He has neither in this case.
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The reason people keep misunderstanding you is you keep bringing up the tailwheel endorsement that has no bearing on this in any way. It's an entire red herring. Your statement "You can't log it unless you've received a tail wheel endorsement, ..." was patently absurd. The only thing that matters is if he is rated in the aircraft which is SINGLE ENGINE LAND.
 
MAKG1 said:
Read 14 CFR 1.1. It meets all the requirements to be an airplane except for the unstated one that "engine driven" and "flight in air" must occur at the same time.
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What does it say on the airworthiness certificate?

If it doesn't say "airplane" or "glider", you can't log it as such.
 
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MAKG1 said:
Got a source for that? Public aircraft are not required to have airworthiness certificates at all.
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So if you're glider rated, you can shut down the engine on a single and log glider time, or log ASEL in a motor glider if you're ASEL rated?
 
MauleSkinner said:
So if you're glider rated, you can shut down the engine on a single and log glider time, or log ASEL in a motor glider if you're ASEL rated?
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I didn't say that. I asked if you had a source for your assertion. Airworthiness certificates are for civil aircraft, not public aircraft.
 
MAKG1 said:
I didn't say that. I asked if you had a source for your assertion.
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61.51 says you've got to be rated in the airplane to log it...what are the ratings required for the space shuttle?

In other words, which part of
(j) Aircraft requirements for logging flight time. For a person to log flight time, the time must be acquired in an aircraft that is identified as an aircraft under §61.5(b), and is—

(1) An aircraft of U.S. registry with either a standard or special airworthiness certificate;

(2) An aircraft of foreign registry with an airworthiness certificate that is approved by the aviation authority of a foreign country that is a Member State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation Organization;

(3) A military aircraft under the direct operational control of the U.S. Armed Forces; or

(4) A public aircraft under the direct operational control of a Federal, State, county, or municipal law enforcement agency, if the flight time was acquired by the pilot while engaged on an official law enforcement flight for a Federal, State, County, or Municipal law enforcement agency.
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does space shuttle flying fall under?
 
coloradobluesky said:
For students of PPSEL, its kind of pointless to log "fun flying" (as opposed to flying for PPSEL syllabus) like aerobatics and tailwheel. There really isn't a requirement to log it and if you are headed to a career fewer hours to Private look good...
Not the big a deal either way.
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Nobody ever looked at how many hours it took for me to get any certificate.
 
Ryanb said:
Did you not read anything I just wrote? One cannot log the time as PIC if they have neither a SEL rating or TW endorsement. He has neither in this case.
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Can you have a TW endorsement without an SEL rating?

(i.e. Is the 'neither' in this case applying to MEL + TW perhaps? )
 
MauleSkinner said:
61.51 says you've got to be rated in the airplane to log it...what are the ratings required for the space shuttle?

In other words, which part of

does space shuttle flying fall under?
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No, it doesn't.

The only thing I can find in 61.51 that requires rating in the aircraft is the PIC time sole manipulator clause. Even for PIC, the space shuttle requires a minimum crew of three, so that's not the correct clause. And the question was about XC and glider/multi time, not PIC.

If I believe what you said, student pilots can't log anything. I think we all know that to be false.

You're putting restrictions that aren't there.

And FYI, Space Ship Two, which is not a public aircraft, is certificated as a glider with a special airworthiness certificate.
 
MAKG1 said:
No, it doesn't.

The only thing I can find in 61.51 that requires rating in the aircraft is the PIC time sole manipulator clause. Even for PIC, the space shuttle requires a minimum crew of three, so that's not the correct clause. And the question was about XC and glider/multi time, not PIC.

If I believe what you said, student pilots can't log anything. I think we all know that to be false.

You're putting restrictions that aren't there.

And FYI, Space Ship Two, which is not a public aircraft, is certificated as a glider with a special airworthiness certificate.
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So what pilot certificate/rating combination are you proposing can log shuttle time, and what category/class combination are you proposing they can log?
 
deonb said:
Can you have a TW endorsement without an SEL rating?

(i.e. Is the 'neither' in this case applying to MEL + TW perhaps? )
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No the "neither" was meaning no SEL, MEL, ASES, AMES. TW, HP or Complex endorsements, just a Student Cert.

And Larry is correct, the student would need a tailwheel endorsement, so yes that would be possible.
 
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