Annual, repair and maintenance on an M20F

[masloki]

So, I've seen a few threads requesting ownership costs, process, shops, etc. that I'd figure I'd write up my annual (and other work) so you'd get a chance to see what I see. Good news, it has just started so I will post updates as I learn more. I'm fairly pleased with the work so far, but for now, I will leave the shops names out of it.

Preamble part 1
When I bought the plane, we negotiated down the price as both tanks had 'weeps." A not uncommon problem on Mooneys, but depending on the weep, something you can defer, patch or reseal. As part of the pre-buy and purchase, I converted it to an annual and the tanks were within allowable limits for weeps. Had the plane home and hangared it with cheap fuel. In the week that followed, 5 gallons of avgas were stolen by the hangar fairies. So, thinking this is going to add up fast, I scheduled my tank reseal as patching had been tried a few times with marginal success. The shop was booked out 15 months, past the next annual, and the plane would be down 2+ weeks. Ouch. But! I notice there is a shop right next to the tanks guys, and ask if they work together. They do! Excellent, tank reseal ($7800 plus annual ($2500) on the books for January. Costs are about a wash between the discount on the plane plus increased value if I go to sell sometime soon.

Preamble part 2 (and plane gore)
Out at Janesville, WI and see my plane a-rocking but I'm sitting inside the restaurant drinking my coffee. Some Piper is next to it, and the pilot is looking properly embarrassed. Insurance information is exchanged, I find an A&P a few hangars over working Saturday and he bashes the skins into shape, reattaches the dead strobe, and puts in a new nav lightbulb. Declared airthworthy. 2 inches from the aileron thankfully, or this story would be much worse. Repair cost $195.

Repair scheduled at shop 1 along with some avionics work. No written quote for the work. They forget to schedule the repair but I am welcome to leave my plane for no less than 4 weeks during peak summer flying. I decline.

Try shop 2 and get a quote for the repairs $6000 but they ghost me on scheduling. Okay, ring the shop where annual is scheduled, get a quote at $7000 and add it to the work plan. Insurance company pays this.

Catching up to now
Tried to figure out where to actually meet the mechanic for the annual as many of the airport runways were well iced over. We agree on convenient airport and day and I drop it off there, hoping no one from the FBO goes for a joyride. Mechanic confirms he's got the plane the next day and will hear back 'tomorrow' once schedules are coordinated between annual and tanks. As with most shops, that call doesn't happen, but after a few attempts and days, we connect . Tank work already started and will run through the weekend.

Next check-in about a week depending on the tanks and some other variables. Estimated completion time of all work - not given. Sigh.

Real costs (so far)
AOG repair - $195
Fuel for trip to annual - $150
Flight home - $150
Uber home - $80
Raised premiums on insurance - estimated at $200 (even though not in motion and not at fault).

 

[masloki]

Current squawks - minor stuff like the fuel selector lost its screw so the it falls off.
Must fix - on the flight over, plane cabin seals are shot and I could see my breath in the cabin. Brrr! Also check the cabin heat to see if I can get more heat.

2022FEB09 Update:
One discrepancy - woot! Inner nose gear skin was repaired from a gear up landing many years ago ans has now failed, causing the nose gear door to wobble about. Half AMU to fabricate a repair.


While we're in there, JPI MAP is noisy. Checking with JPI to see if an inline metering filter still recommended.
Cold air attributed to a cabin scat tube leaking.
Mooney backed up waiting for aluminum, estimated lead time of 6-8 weeks for the skins. Checking alternate options. If none, that repair will be differed again.

 

[masloki]

Placeholder for notes from the repair, painting, etc. Hoping to get some spots touched up while they've got the paint mixed and ready to go.

Painting didn't happen as skins did not ship from Mooney in time. I wonder when they will arrive and when the plane can be worked on next....

 

[masloki]

Picked it up after about 6 weeks total. Flew commercial out note to self: snowstorms cause airfares to spike up! Book when things are stable as last minute deals are unlikely. Flight back was easy-peezy with a nice sunset photo added to the Daily Pics thread.

 

[M1tchell]

So some clown ran into your airplane on the ramp and stuck you with the bill to get it airworthy AND the higher insurance premiums? There's no way I could do that to someone.

 

[masloki]

So some clown ran into your airplane on the ramp and stuck you with the bill to get it airworthy AND the higher insurance premiums? There's no way I could do that to someone.

No and yes. His insurance is covering it but my aircraft now has a recent damage claim. Even a no fault claim is a reason to raise the premiums. Sigh.
Progress update: no progress. Shop is waiting on chemicals.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Whoa! $7,800 to reseal / repair a leaky tank? Did I read that right?
Are they sealing it with hundred dollar bills?

 

[Jim K]

Whoa! $7,800 to reseal / repair a leaky tank? Did I read that right?
Are they sealing it with hundred dollar bills?

That about the price for a pair of pa28/32 tanks, not including paint. It's a lot of labor to drill out all the rivets, reseal the seams, and re-rivet everything. I negotiated $5k off the purchase of my plane due to weepy tanks, but haven't fixed them yet.

 

[Bill]

Yup, going rate. I can't believe we've owned the plane since 2005 and haven't had to do a tank reseal, but I'm sure it's on the horizion. Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

No and yes. His insurance is covering it but my aircraft now has a recent damage claim. Even a no fault claim is a reason to raise the premiums. Sigh.
Progress update: no progress. Shop is waiting on chemicals.

I learned the hard way, that for anything less than $50k it's probably worth going to court and getting a lawyer for a no fault claim, vs going through insurance. I also had a no fault claim for $14k and it was a horrendous experience that still left me with $12k of repairs I had to do on my own. I deeply regret going through insurance.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

I have only had wet wings which you just reseal (cost me $1500)
and now I have bladders. Not sure what they run.

Aviation is expensive.

 

[steingar]

Whoa! $7,800 to reseal / repair a leaky tank? Did I read that right?
Are they sealing it with hundred dollar bills?

Yup, and there are only two places I'd trust to do it. Bladders are more, but they're a more permanent solution.

 

[charheep]

Is that for both tanks? or just one?

 

[masloki]

Are they sealing it with hundred dollar bills?

FAA certified hundred dollar bills. I am sure the experimental guys are using singles.

Is that for both tanks? or just one?

Both sides.

Patching going rate is around 750 per side and since the last patches failed in a year, the reseal or bladders seemed like the logical choice. Bladders cost a bit more with a weight penalty so I opted for the reseal since it will be next due sometime after I upgrade to a flying car.

 

[charheep]

For both sides, then its not sooo bad. Like medium bad.

I appreciate the figures. Since I sold my Bo, I have been looking for a replacement. So this helps.

 

[masloki]

Friday update. Stuff is happening to planes, maybe mine. Not clear when or what will happen. Will try again mid-week.

 

[pfarber]

Note to self: if a plane has an existing problem, make seller fix. OP lost $2k on the tanks and flying time. The AC doesn't have to be perfect, but known issues need to all be fixed.

 

[donjohnston]

FAA certified hundred dollar bills. I am sure the experimental guys are using singles.

Maybe the metal airplane people use singles. Us composite types use pennies.

 

[Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)]

@pfarber wouldnt you rather control the repair process (honest question - I’ve never owned)? You pick the shop and work to be done (vs relying on the seller who wants to spend the minimum)?

 

[Ted]

When I was flying the M20F about 15 years ago it had weeping wings. We opted for bladders, and went all out with the increased fuel capacity bladders. I seem to recall back them it was… $12k? I forget. But I remember floating the money for the owners and getting a lot of Amex points.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Strip and reseal for $7500 is actually a good price. It’s pretty labor intensive. But just because it leaks doesn’t mean you need to do a strip&reseal, you can just try to do a patch if the sealant is in good shape, I’ve patched mine, took 2 times to fix it….but someday that may not be enough.

 

[masloki]

Note to self: if a plane has an existing problem, make seller fix. OP lost $2k on the tanks and flying time.

@pfarber You pick the shop and work to be done (vs relying on the seller who wants to spend the minimum)?

Exactly. My self and my family - it’s my call who does what on my plane. That said, we are spoiled by ultra-reliable cars and the logistical symphony of Amazon. Every shop I’ve been to is run by a guy who is really great at airframes and power plants, typically has hired okay-ish staff, answers the phone but rarely makes the call, and pretty crap about scheduling. (I’ve encountered one shop with a no-longer-deserved great reputation because they aren’t monitoring their okay-ish staff, but they have decades of specialty knowledge so no one calls them out publicly. You will get the warning after your plane is in there. Sigh)

But I remember floating the money for the owners and getting a lot of Amex points.

Curious to see which way these shops go. The bill(s) will be spendy but my local shop surcharges for credit card that outweighs the points. My autopilot install got me a nice pile of points.

 

[eman1200]

I have only had wet wings which you just reseal (cost me $1500)

hhhhmmmm, please tell us more about this magical cheap reseal that you just do one time and everything is hunky dory for such a low price.

 

[Rcmutz]

Grumman tank reseal would also be a 6-8 AMUs job.

 

[mondtster]

hhhhmmmm, please tell us more about this magical cheap reseal that you just do one time and everything is hunky dory for such a low price.

I’m guessing it was just a spot repair or repairs.

The mooney I owned had its tanks resealed by Willmar shortly before I bought it. The original seal job lasted about 50 years so I figured the reseal would last a similar length. It will likely be scrapped long before it gets to that point.

There were also some other Mooney owners on the field, with various model year airplanes. The local mechanic loved Mooney’s and was insistent that he could spot repair the seal job and save the owners thousands of dollars. Only problem was, every 2 or so years the tanks seemed to sprout a new leak that had to get fixed. The owners probably saved some money in the short term but it definitely cost them in the long run. That mechanic is now dead as well so I wouldn’t be surprised if the next mechanic is less willing to fix the tanks all the time. I know I’m not interested in doing regular tank work for them anyway…

 

[Jim K]

hhhhmmmm, please tell us more about this magical cheap reseal that you just do one time and everything is hunky dory for such a low price.

They used to "slosh" piper tanks until they figured out that it would eventually flake off & plug the fuel strainers. I wonder if that's what was done to Bryan's.

 

[kyleb]

Strip and reseal for $7500 is actually a good price. It’s pretty labor intensive. But just because it leaks doesn’t mean you need to do a strip&reseal, you can just try to do a patch if the sealant is in good shape, I’ve patched mine, took 2 times to fix it….but someday that may not be enough.

Is a patch a blob of sealant on the outside or something else?

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Is a patch a blob of sealant on the outside or something else?

It’s applying sealant to the inside over the old sealant.

 

[hindsight2020]

I have only had wet wings which you just reseal (cost me $1500)
and now I have bladders. Not sure what they run.

Aviation is expensive.

Here ya go, about a grand each. 2-3k with labor each depending on what kind of inflation adjusted labor rates people are running post-2021. You have four bladders on it.

 

[Rich Holt]

hhhhmmmm, please tell us more about this magical cheap reseal that you just do one time and everything is hunky dory for such a low price.

That must have been a while ago. My tank reseals (working on month 5) was quoted at $6k/wing. I'll provide an update when the work is (finally) complete. Luckily, no one had attempted to "patch" the right-wing yet, so it should be a lot less work to reseal that one. The left-wing looks like a toddler were let loose inside the fuel tank with a bucket of black glue.

 

[masloki]

Tried again. 'We hope to get to the annual next week.' This is the hard part about combining multiple projects...but I did it in January because the weather isn't super good for flying. Patience is a thing I have read about, I think.

 

[AA5Bman]

I learned the hard way, that for anything less than $50k it's probably worth going to court and getting a lawyer for a no fault claim, vs going through insurance. I also had a no fault claim for $14k and it was a horrendous experience that still left me with $12k of repairs I had to do on my own. I deeply regret going through insurance.

I know your hangar blew down or something, but you should do a thread (or maybe you already have and I missed it) on what happened and what you learned - I’d be curious why you say not to engage insurance and how you ended up $12k in the hole.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

I know your hangar blew down or something, but you should do a thread (or maybe you already have and I missed it) on what happened and what you learned - I’d be curious why you say not to engage insurance and how you ended up $12k in the hole.

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/the-worst-people-in-aviation.127568/

 

[Mtns2Skies]

I’d be curious why you say not to engage insurance and how you ended up $12k in the hole.

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/the-worst-people-in-aviation.127568/

I guess it's long since been settled so I can be more explicit since that thread doesn't call out specifics.

My landing gear was bent. All of the weight was pushing against my right main gear and it clearly and evidently towed my right wheel out. I have pictures of literally the flight before where my gear was symmetrical and both tires were straight up and down, and then after the incident my right main gear was clearly towed out several degrees more than the right. And that's the wheel that was chocked and held the weight of the hangar wall. The adjuster outright refused to believe that my gear was bent from the incident despite having photo evidence, he was sure I was trying to pull one over on him to cover up for a ****ty landing I had. Being an engineer, I gave him a long explanation of pressure = F/A and how it was quite possible that the gear bent from the incident without ruining any aluminum in the gearbox, but he ended up scaring my mechanic out of replacing the right main gear threatening that he wouldn't cover it. Technically even being newly bent the gear was in Cessna's spec, but I sure as hell didn't trust it. So I bought myself $12k in brand new steel gear. Low and behold, I pulled off the old gear and they didn't line up - one was pretty significantly bent, and this showed as the plane didn't sit even after the hangar fall, one wingtip was up to 5" lower than the other on level ground, and with my new gear the plane sits perfectly level.

Then regarding insurance, I was assured at every step that they would subrogate against the hangar owner and it would be a $0 claim for me, clearly not my fault and it most likely wouldn't affect my rates. EVERY Step, the broker, the underwriter and the adjuster all assured me this would almost certainly be the case. Okay well I got paid out for $14k in damage to control surfaces after repairs and low and behold the underwriter says "Well it's not enough for us to be worth subrogating so this claim will be on you", I ***** and moan to my broker (Wings Insurance) and he says oh no problem we'll argue with them at renewal that since it's not your fault. Then, I get an insurance estimate for $6k because of a $14k payout. Of course, I go fairly ballistic at this point at which point he actually argued for me and got it down to a more reasonable price, but still more than it would have been without the claim. I still have to deal with raised rates from my claim, though certainly used a different broker.

What I *should have done* was repair the plane to my liking, and then sued either the guy in the hangar behind me that negligently left his hangar door open and/or the hangar owner who had a crappily built hangar to recover my costs. So no, insurance did not stand by me, and no I was not made whole and it was a horrible experience where I feel I was taken advantage of by just about every party involved. Next time I need anything from insurance I learned that from first contact - they can talk to a lawyer.

 

[cmsuav8r]

Thanks for sharing. Not that I trust insurance companies anyway, but that is definitely eye-opening.

I guess it's long since been settled so I can be more explicit since that thread doesn't call out specifics.

My landing gear was bent. All of the weight was pushing against my right main gear and it clearly and evidently towed my right wheel out. I have pictures of literally the flight before where my gear was symmetrical and both tires were straight up and down, and then after the incident my right main gear was cleared towed out several degrees more than the right. And that's the wheel that was chocked and held the weight of the hangar wall. The adjuster outright refused to believe that my gear was bent from the incident despite having photo evidence, he was sure I was trying to pull one over on him to cover up for a ****ty landing I had. Being an engineer, I gave him a long explanation of pressure = F/A and how it was quite possible that the gear bent from the incident without ruining any aluminum in the gearbox, but he ended up scaring my mechanic out of replacing the right main gear threatening that he wouldn't cover it, technically even being newly bent the gear was in Cessna's spec, but I sure as hell didn't trust it. So I bought myself $12k in brand new steel gear. Low and behold, I pulled off the old gear and they didn't line up - one was pretty significantly bent, and this showed as the plane didn't sit even after the hangar fall, one wingtip was up to 5" lower than the other on level ground, and with my new gear the plane sits perfectly level.

Then regarding insurance, I was assured at every step that they would subrogate against the hangar owner and it would be a $0 claim for me, clearly not my fault and it most likely wouldn't affect my rates. EVERY Step, the broker, the underwriter and the adjuster all assured me this would almost certainly be the case. Okay well I got paid out for $14k in damage to control surfaces after repairs and low and behold the underwriter says "Well it's not enough for us to be worth subrogating so this claim will be on you", I ***** and moan to my broker (Wings Insurance) and he says oh no problem we'll argue with them at renewal that since it's not your fault. Low and behold, I get an insurance estimate for $6k because of a $14k payout. I go fairly ballistic at this point at which point he actually argued for me and got it down to a more reasonable price, but still more than it would have been without the claim. I still have to deal with raised rates from my claim, though certainly used a different broker.

What I *should have done* was repair the plane to my liking, and then sued either the guy in the hangar behind me that negligently left his hangar door open and/or the hangar owner who had a crappily built hangar to recover my costs. So no, insurance did not stand by me, and no I was not made whole and it was a horrible experience where I feel I was taken advantage of by just about every party involved. Next time I need anything from insurance I learned that from first contact - they can talk to a lawyer.

 

[masloki]

Well, Step 1 was anticlimactic. “Tanks done. Here’s the bill.” On the upside, for the tiny chance there’s an issue, it’s getting inspected next so it will hopefully be caught and fixed.

 

[MBDiagMan]

I will say, if that’s all the after purchase expense you have, consider yourself fortunate.

I bought my F about 3 1/2 years ago. It had sat up for years before pulling cylinders, inspecting, honing cylinders and replacing rings. It went about 100 hours before it began making metal. Inspected again at that point and two lifters were really spalled. Split it hoping that cam and lifters would get it done, but ended up doing a zero time overhaul. Wasn’t cheap. The good news is that the engine is really sweet and ready for the long haul. If a plane hasn’t been run regularly, be leary.

Other after purchase expenses were gear actuator, overhaul of the wing leveling turn coordinator, retubing and replacing wing leveler diaphragms. I also overhauled the Attitude Indicator. Other various expenses have been the things you expect in the course of keeping a 55 year old aircraft in the air.

This is the third aircraft I’ve purchased. If I haven’t learned anything else, I have learned that the odds of buying an aircraft and flying until the first annual with no significant expenses are very slim. One needs to understand that even with due diligence in the purchase process, you will have a project getting it debugged and then keeping up with it.

At this point, both of my airplanes have fresh, top quality engines and are in top shape. That means everything is great…….. until the next thing that needs attention. My goal is to be watching everything I can and try to catch the inevitable problems as early as I can.

To the OP. With your tanks fixed, just keep a watchful eye on everything, fly it frequently, and when something breaks fix it soon. Enjoy!

 

[masloki]

Fly it frequently isn’t working so well this month. Still no update on the inspection: - dunno if it started, might be done Monday. Called Thursday end of day and still haven’t heard back. Not surprising in general but I still expect better.

But I hear you on the engine. It did sit a while in the 2000s and 2010s but flew a few years before I got in with a midtime engine. Wish me luck for the next few years.

 

[Magman]

Suggest you have an experienced Mooney guy look your wing over.

Tip Strikes often result in damage near the fuselage.

Lots of leverage there.

 

[pfarber]

@pfarber wouldnt you rather control the repair process (honest question - I’ve never owned)? You pick the shop and work to be done (vs relying on the seller who wants to spend the minimum)?

Always be ready to walk away. There is always another 'thing'.

If there was a tank issue, I'd have it fixed. It still has to pass a pre-buy and a double check. The key is to be completely unambiguous about what you expect. If owner fixes, then it still has to pass your inspection. This is no different than of the seller knew of an issue, and paid the least amount of money to fix because he's selling it.. it still has to pass your pre-buy.