Angry - Pencil whipped annuals

[RV10flyer]

I charge $70/hr for HVAC service work and see the same stuff. I also have an A&P. I spent five years in the Army as a UH-60 crew chief, one yr in A&P school, one year in welding school, two years in HVAC tech school, four years overhauling jet engines, 13 years in HVAC service/installation. Like Bill, built a plane from a slow build kit. I have just a few tools. I looked over the repair estimate and it seems very reasonable. If someone thinks they are going to get ripped off on any type of home, auto or plane repair...either do it yourself, go to school/get licensed then do it yourself and by all means start your own business and see how far that $70/hr goes. Now how much are those football/basketball/concert tickets? How about that ocean cruise? How much is that satellite TV or cell phone bill? How much is all of that eating out cost?

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I charge $70/hr for HVAC service work and see the same stuff. I also have an A&P. I spent five years in the Army as a UH-60 crew chief, one yr in A&P school, one year in welding school, two years in HVAC tech school, four years overhauling jet engines, 13 years in HVAC service/installation. Like Bill, built a plane from a slow build kit. I have just a few tools. I looked over the repair estimate and it seems very reasonable. If someone thinks they are going to get ripped off on any type of home, auto or plane repair...either do it yourself, go to school/get licensed then do it yourself and by all means start your own business and see how far that $70/hr goes. Now how much are those football/basketball/concert tickets? How about that ocean cruise? How much is that satellite TV or cell phone bill? How much is all of that eating out cost?

what do you charge for installation of a Geothermal heat pump 2 ton? Open loop or closed loop.

 

[RV10flyer]

I only install air source.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I only install air source.

The quotes I got were $18k and $19k....including the units....So take out the $5500 allowance for unit, taco valve, flow meter, ball joint, poli pipe and there is still about $13-14k for installation...We did it ourselves in about 4 hrs and $700 of materials, backho rental. I call that attempting to rip someone off.

Its not the $70 per hour nor the $55 per hour but the number of hours that gets you...actually it is the dishonesty that gets you.

Now that anyone who can read can get full installation instructions and buy brand new units on the internet people can see what their vendors are really doing to them.

 

[denverpilot]

Both shops have more work than they really can handle right now.

As do more than one shop at nearby airports. It's a strange deal around here right now. Every mechanic in sight is busy and frankly, making mistakes.

We caught something our guy missed last year and while he was mortified and nicely dropped everything to fix it immediately, we have had the distinct feeling he's too busy.

Another place is three months behind in billing. Whether that means they are spending the time in the shop instead, or they're just that slow at paperwork, we don't know, but it's nice to fly the darn thing for months before the invoice actually arrives.

It does make one wonder a bit about other things that might be slipping, though. It's one thing to get the invoice out and perhaps offer Net 90 terms, but very weird to wait three months to invoice.

Our DME still isn't back in the aircraft. It was pulled and delivered to a test bench for further troubleshooting last year.

 

[Marauder]

I rebuilt my starter $175 and 24 hrs turn around....labor wasn't 2 hrs it was 1 hr. $75 per hour is a bit high as well. I think I pay $55 per hour.



I know there expensive but I would have considered Powerflow STC at this point. Supposed to add about 12-13% more effective power on the 180 Cherokee.


Seems excessive labor here.


each of the hourly items are on the high side and rounded up....if they each come in at quoted I would start to doubt this guy is completely honest. I don't think we spent 2 hrs replacing all the hoses on my Cherokee not just induction.


again a 15 minute deal that is rounded up to 1 hr on top of five other items already rounded up....


diddo



I averaged about $600 per year annual inspection w/oil change and another $400-600 per year maintenance so your bill is about 3 years maintenance on my Cherokee......I had a high time rental fleet aircraft.

Can anyone give me a reality check on the labor hours for some of these items? 15 hrs seems excessive.

I have had to change mechanics a few times over the years because my business moved me. A few of the "new" mechanics I worked with would provide estimates instead of actual quotes. The estimates tended to be on the high side for a couple of reasons. They didn't know what kind of mess they may have been getting into with my plane or they just weren't familiar with the type. Often the actual labor charged was much less and I walked away feeling great (since I had already set in my mind the higher number).

This mechanic may be doing a little of both. When I hear things like "needs to pull the part to get the part number", he may not have the service manuals which suggests he doesn't do a lot with the type. Not a good sign considering this is a more common type of plane. It is also not good from the perspective that you are literally torn apart and waiting for the part. I would rather have my mechanic do the phone and paperwork to provide me with options before I commit. What if the suppliers he works with can only get that part to him in 6 weeks and it is not a critical component? Are you going to wait or want him to find other sources? If the part is critical, obviously the situation is different, but I certainly would want to know what I am facing cost wise before he tore it all apart.

There are differences between estimates, budgetary quotes and legal quotes. When I work with avionics shops, I ask specifically for a legal quote. These guys tend to quote low and find "gotta have" stuff later and try to stick me with it.

I don't think it would hurt the relationship to ask something of the mechanic like "your estimate seems on the high side based on my years of ownership of this plane, do you think it will be this much labor?" It serves notice that you are watching and that you may challenge abnormally high labor.

I would be more irritated with the previous mechanic. And before I take on a new mechanic, I try to find their customers to understand how they are to work with. If they are new to the area or business, all bets are off. You are truly a test subject.

When it comes to annuals, I am an active participant. I have the Mooney service checklist with me. I go through and document known squaks and provide a list of things to look at based on my interactions with other Mooney owners. Helps keeps the surprises down and also balances out the cost over time. If I proactively correct something that will fail over time, it prevents me either having to deal with it while traveling or worse case -- in the air.

 

[wsuffa]

If someone thinks they are going to get ripped off on any type of home, auto or plane repair...either do it yourself, go to school/get licensed then do it yourself and by all means start your own business and see how far that $70/hr goes.

Define "ripoff".

While I have used many honest & knowledgable service providers - and I will gladly pay what they're worth - I really don't care to pay high prices for someone who is teaching themselves or just learning on my aircraft/auto/home repair. Yes, folks need to learn, but I shouldn't have to pay for 2x the number of hours of an experienced person.

Or worse, someone who conducts fraud (for example, the shop that stole a 2 year old remote compass from my plane and replaced it with an old, unreliable unit from the shelf - that didn't get discovered until the RC started acting up & a new repair shop found that it was full of bad solder joints and "Radio Shack" parts.... then compared the serial numbers to what was SUPPOSED to be in the plane... then could find no log entries of a swap... oh, and the "acting up" occurred by locking 20-degrees off-course on an IFR departure from Four Corners).

There are good folks and there are bad folks. The good ones stand behind their work & make it right when they are at fault.

 

[dell30rb]

We all seem leave the paper work out of the cost equation.

What really p's me off is paying the same shop rates for my car and knowing how much less they do and are liable for.

The auto repair industry is HORRIBLE

Example: Recently had a bad oxygen sensor on my mom's car, a 2004 lexus with 100,000 miles. Shop 1 quoted $415 to replace. Part was $160 they said.

Shop 2 was $350.

I replaced it in my driveway with the OEM part, made by denso with the factory wiring harness. It took all of 20 minutes. Total cost $70

 

[RV10flyer]

The quotes I got were $18k and $19k....including the units....So take out the $5500 allowance for unit, taco valve, flow meter, ball joint, poli pipe and there is still about $13-14k for installation...We did it ourselves in about 4 hrs and $700 of materials, backho rental. I call that attempting to rip someone off.

Its not the $70 per hour nor the $55 per hour but the number of hours that gets you...actually it is the dishonesty that gets you.

Now that anyone who can read can get full installation instructions and buy brand new units on the internet people can see what their vendors are really doing to them.

Here is a typical internet suppliers warranty...

Warranty on Equipment: We back all manufacturer warranties on equipment, the equipment must be installed by a heating and air contractor or approved by HVAC technician. When a part needs to be replaced we will ship you the replacement part and then you will return defective part back to us for warranty reimbursement. We back all manufacturer warranties on parts only, the customer is responsible for the shipping and labor charges to replace defective parts.

Four hours by yourself from start to finish? Including state inspection, clean up, system start-up, temperature/pressure/amperage readings, backfilling, sowing grass and spreading straw. Not everyone has the tools, skills, license or desire to DIY. The contractors that quoted high probably picked up that you were a DIY. Why have them waste their time coming out, just ask them on the phone what the average replacement cost is. This is the reason I charge for estimates on any new customers. I now use that time to do more service calls where I know I will make a profit and be appreciated.

As the OP mentioned, he is going to lose $75/hr and it is an hour each way to the airport.

I know in America it is hard to believe anyone that gets dirty or does not have a 4 yr degree hanging on the wall surely is not worth $75/hr.

 

[Ted]

The auto repair industry is HORRIBLE

Example: Recently had a bad oxygen sensor on my mom's car, a 2004 lexus with 100,000 miles. Shop 1 quoted $415 to replace. Part was $160 they said.

Shop 2 was $350.

I replaced it in my driveway with the OEM part, made by denso with the factory wiring harness. It took all of 20 minutes. Total cost $70

This (and the fact that I used to be a mechanic) is why I don't take our cars to shops.

 

[Alexb2000]

This (and the fact that I used to be a mechanic) is why I don't take our cars to shops.

Ted you know this, but with car repairs it cuts both ways unlike aviation. If a shop quotes $350 to replace an oxygen sensor, fine that's usually easy money.... BUT....

First they have to take the time to confirm it really is the O2 sensor. The scanner is not a magic wand it will only say the O2 sensor is out of spec. not that it is bad. So there are about 100 reasons why you could have the O2 sensor code and the O2 sensor not be the problem at all. Those are the jobs where you really earn your money and if you quoted the customer a fixed price based on an assumption you can spend lots of hours working for free. For exampe, I just help fix a Saab at my neighbors shop with an O2 sensor code, it took 20 hours to find a tiny pin hole leak in the intercooler.

Look at it this way if car repair was a gold mine or even a real good living lots of people would be getting into it not out.

 

[RV10flyer]

The auto repair industry is HORRIBLE

Example: Recently had a bad oxygen sensor on my mom's car, a 2004 lexus with 100,000 miles. Shop 1 quoted $415 to replace. Part was $160 they said.

Shop 2 was $350.

I replaced it in my driveway with the OEM part, made by denso with the factory wiring harness. It took all of 20 minutes. Total cost $70

How much did the shop charge for diagnosing the problem with their $5,000+ piece of equipment? Do we really believe the diagnostic testers when they tell us a particular part is bad? The cheaper DIY testers have been wrong more than right from my experience. I have replaced several parts for a "lean condition" when it ended up being leaky intake manifold gaskets. Did I save any money? Nope, but I gained some knowledge and know better when to pay the professional. The guys that do this everyday learn what the most likely culprit is.

Their prices seemed $150 too high. When you mention Lexus, Mercedes or BMW. The owners of these types of cars are normally not the DIY types.

I have built a house, two garages and now a plane. I paid a professional to pour and finish my wrap around concrete porch slab. Also paid for excavating and the septic system. Yes, it cost more than if I had done it myself. I really did not have the desire, license or experience to tackle it. Everything else I did myself. Some work is not as good as a professional and some is better. Everyone must do what is best for them. Just don't call a professional and expect them not to make a reasonable profit. Look around and ask yourself what overhead that particular business has. Remember, you just might need them again someday.

 

[Ted]

Ted you know this, but with car repairs it cuts both ways unlike aviation. If a shop quotes $350 to replace an oxygen sensor, fine that's usually easy money.... BUT....

First they have to take the time to confirm it really is the O2 sensor. The scanner is not a magic wand it will only say the O2 sensor is out of spec. not that it is bad. So there are about 100 reasons why you could have the O2 sensor code and the O2 sensor not be the problem at all. Those are the jobs where you really earn your money and if you quoted the customer a fixed price based on an assumption you can spend lots of hours working for free. For exampe, I just help fix a Saab at my neighbors shop with an O2 sensor code, it took 20 hours to find a tiny pin hole leak in the intercooler.

Look at it this way if car repair was a gold mine or even a real good living lots of people would be getting into it not out.

Of course you have the simple repairs and the difficult repairs. As the person who had to diagnose and repair the problems (on Jaguars, no less), I've had those times. It's gone both ways.

However, the majority of mechanics who are leaving the industry and shutting down I think are doing so because of a poor business models and a belief that it's somehow beneath them since it results in dirty hands. The shops I ran had happy customers and did well. I'd get back into it before I'd go into being an A&P.

 

[PilotAlan]

When I hear things like "needs to pull the part to get the part number", he may not have the service manuals which suggests he doesn't do a lot with the type. Not a good sign considering this is a more common type of plane.
...
I don't think it would hurt the relationship to ask something of the mechanic like "your estimate seems on the high side based on my years of ownership of this plane, do you think it will be this much labor?"

Thanks Marauder.

I won't criticize the A&P on the part number, apparently there were some running production changes and part numbers can vary. Fuel line placement can vary based on PN, and the only way to know for sure is to pull the part.
In this case, I ain't flying until that's replaced.

I will ask as you suggest on the hours. But if this shop is as good as they seem, I will pay what they ask to keep a safe and well maintained airplane.

 

[PilotAlan]

The guys that do this everyday learn what the most likely culprit is.

Yep. There's someone around here's whose sig line stuck with me. It said something to the effect of:
"You don't pay me to turn the screwdriver, you pay me to know which screwdriver to use, on what part, how many turns, in what direction, and with how much torque."

That says it all.

 

[dell30rb]

How much did the shop charge for diagnosing the problem with their $5,000+ piece of equipment?

It was an obd II scanner. You can get the codes free if you take the car to auto zone. Or buy a scanner for $80-200. This was not a Lexus specialty shop. A lexus is simply a toyota btw

Yes, diagnosing things can sometimes be difficult and sometimes requires special tools. I've taken vehicles to the dealer for tricky diagnosis requiring the dealer's computers and tools (jeep body control module was bad, jeep PCM was bad, jeep transmission solenoid was bad). In each case I was charged $100 for them to hook up their computer and confirm my suspicions, and then fixed the problem myself.

In the case of my bad BCM (body control module) they mis-diagnosed it as bad battery terminals. I was short on time so I paid $300 for new battery plus terminals. Then it started acting up a few days later. So I went to the junkyard, pulled a BCM out of a similar jeep, and put it in my jeep. Total about half a saturday plus $40 for the BCM. I think the quote for this was about $600

In one case I was quoted $500 for a PCM (engine computer) and $400 for installation. I got a junkyard PCM for $150 with a warranty, and installed it myself in TEN MINUTES (three bolts, three wiring harness connectors).


Not in this case. A 100,000 mi vehicle throws a code for one out of four oxygen sensors. No special tools or head scratching needed, just replace the bad sensor. The quote from the cheap shop was about $150 too high. They marked the part up 50% and quoted 1.75 hours of labor for a .5 hour job.

I checked the lexus service manual too which lists the labor as .5 hours.

 

[wabower]

My business activities require the ongoing examination and follow-up on numerous aviation MX activities each month including estimates, quotes, off-the-cuffs, billings, arguments, admonitions, threats, cussing matches, and other displays of human nature and displays of volatility usually displayed on Jerry Springer.

The results of these interactions has led me to conclude that an airplane owner who enjoys a mutually-enjoyable relationship with his MX shop is a lucky SOB.

Some observations of issues previously discussed on this thread are:

Parts availability is an easy issue. From Dallas, we can order almost any part prior to 6 pm and have it on the shop floor after lunch the next day. Simply use a west-coast supplier and provide a credit card number. Many shops have historically used the "waiting for parts" excuse to stretch available manpower to match work in progress, but such tactics should no longer be allowed.

Sourcing parts should be understood up front, as should markups, core charges, freight charges, owner's ability to provide and other variables. Many rebuilder options are available. Buying new replacement parts for old airplanes is a proven sink-hole for money.

Tell the shop to mark the problem areas (we use clothespins with orange streamers) so that you can walk the job prior to approving the work. When mechanics perform the inspection, it's not uncommon for each to develop his own squawk list of a certain physical area of a plane, such as the left wing. Squawks can include a number of sub-items (such as skin cracks, lights and strobes, fuel systems, fillers, lanyards, anti-siphon valves, flight controls, landing gear, brakes, tires and other that should be grouped for MX) rather than each being considered as a single item that requires the panels and other access gismos to be removed and replaced for each.

 

[Skylane81E]

Thanks Marauder.

I won't criticize the A&P on the part number, apparently there were some running production changes and part numbers can vary. Fuel line placement can vary based on PN, and the only way to know for sure is to pull the part.
In this case, I ain't flying until that's replaced.

I will ask as you suggest on the hours. But if this shop is as good as they seem, I will pay what they ask to keep a safe and well maintained airplane.

Piper is known for that, then there is also the simple fact that what is in the plane might not be exactly what is in the IPC due to revisions, modifications and the like. Sometimes the most time effective solution is to pull the thing out and read the number stamped on it.

There there are cases like Cirrus who buys their wheels assembled from Parker and as such do not have P/Ns for the bearings published

 

[PilotAlan]

Sometimes the most time effective solution is to pull the thing out and read the number stamped on it.

And the thing had to come out anyway. It's not like I'm paying to remove it twice.
What I *didn't* want was to order a part and find out when it arrived that it wasn't the right one.

 

[wsuffa]

Piper is known for that, then there is also the simple fact that what is in the plane might not be exactly what is in the IPC due to revisions, modifications and the like. Sometimes the most time effective solution is to pull the thing out and read the number stamped on it.

There there are cases like Cirrus who buys their wheels assembled from Parker and as such do not have P/Ns for the bearings published

My Commander is like that, too. Certain parts were subbed at the factory and don't match the manual.

Oh, and according to the manual, different bearings were substituted in certain assemblies from what the assembly manufacturer ships.....

 

[Tom-D]

And the thing had to come out anyway. It's not like I'm paying to remove it twice.
What I *didn't* want was to order a part and find out when it arrived that it wasn't the right one.

Most reputable parts houses will upgrade to the latest version of the parts ordered.

 

[bluerooster]

How did YOU miss the fuel smell, and the staining around the fuel selector?

 

[PilotAlan]

How did YOU miss the fuel smell, and the staining around the fuel selector?

As I said, with the seat forward, you couldn't see it.

There was no smell in flight. The only thing I can think was that I keep the door open in the hangar, so the smell didn't build up. I'll be keeping the door closed now.

 

[bnt83]

As I said, with the seat forward, you couldn't see it.

There was no smell in flight. The only thing I can think was that I keep the door open in the hangar, so the smell didn't build up. I'll be keeping the door closed now.

Auto gas is a great leak detector just not for your airplane... I don't think there is an auto gas stc for it anyways.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Auto gas is a great leak detector just not for your airplane... I don't think there is an auto gas stc for it anyways.

Peterson has a mogas STC for Cherokee 180, requires a 2nd electric fuel pump and some plumbing so its upwards of $2k, not the $1.50 per hp of the other Cherokees.

 

[dell30rb]

There was no smell in flight. The only thing I can think was that I keep the door open in the hangar, so the smell didn't build up. I'll be keeping the door closed now.

Not surprising. Avgas does not stink the place up like mogas

 

[bnt83]

Peterson has a mogas STC for Cherokee 180, requires a 2nd electric fuel pump and some plumbing so its upwards of $2k, not the $1.50 per hp of the other Cherokees.

I wasn't sure thanks for the info.

 

[PilotAlan]

In another thread, Silvaire called me out an an "unengaged" owner, and questioned why I wasn't doing the relatively minor engine repairs myself.

The plane is in the shop and taken apart. To do it myself, I have to go down during business hours, which will cost me significant money.
Or, I can have him do everything else, cowl it back up, then go out on the weekend and fix what I can, and then pay him to come back and inspect it.

If this was an issue of me finding something and fixing it on my own, then yeah. I have done and do repairs to my bird, but at this time, with it in his shop and opened up, there is no economical way to accomplish that.

I am not "disengaged" from the ownership experience.
I have done two owner-assist annuals where I did all the grunt work, I do my research on parts and mechanical issues, I set priorities for maintenance, and I know my plane.
I replaced the door hinges and clevises under supervision of an IA, removed old avionics and wiring when the panel got upgraded, changed the oil and filter with my A&P watching (teaching me how to look for metal chips and how to safety the filter), repainted the engine mount, and replaced two aileron hinges.

Frankly, I will say that when it comes to engine, I am a little scared of doing my own work. Electric, no problem. Lighting, no problem. Interior, no problem.
But with the engine, it seems like there's million little things you can miss or not know. My screwdriver hand isn't 'calibrated' to know how much force and torque is correct, and I think I'll likely either under torque or overtorque something.

I would build a bathroom in my hangar without a second thought. But I have a phobia of the engine.

 

[PilotAlan]

Peterson has a mogas STC for Cherokee 180, requires a 2nd electric fuel pump and some plumbing so its upwards of $2k, not the $1.50 per hp of the other Cherokees.

Yeah. I was thinking about putting it in when the only place around here selling Mogas shut down their pumps.
It wouldn't take long at $1.50+ gal x 10gph to make that payoff (today Premium mogoas is $3.25/gal vs $5.19 for self serve Avgas)

 

[denverpilot]

Or worse, someone who conducts fraud (for example, the shop that stole a 2 year old remote compass from my plane and replaced it with an old, unreliable unit from the shelf - that didn't get discovered until the RC started acting up & a new repair shop found that it was full of bad solder joints and "Radio Shack" parts.... then compared the serial numbers to what was SUPPOSED to be in the plane... then could find no log entries of a swap... oh, and the "acting up" occurred by locking 20-degrees off-course on an IFR departure from Four Corners).

Wow. Under the right weather conditions, that's attempted murder.

 

[N801BH]

Wow. Under the right weather conditions, that's attempted murder.

Or, at least in most states... Felony fraud........

It always amazes me how pilots don't report such obvious safety violations to the FAA, FBI and any other government agency that needs to know of deadly tactics...

 

[bnt83]

Or, at least in most states... Felony fraud........

It always amazes me how pilots don't report such obvious safety violations to the FAA, FBI and any other government agency that needs to know of deadly tactics...

Had an EGPWS computer go missing and of course on the test flight it didn't work and the the Cessna 560XL crew wrote it up. It got reported and the FBI showed up...

 

[poadeleted21]

Or, at least in most states... Felony fraud........

It always amazes me how pilots don't report such obvious safety violations to the FAA, FBI and any other government agency that needs to know of deadly tactics...

Somebody stole your engine and replaced it with a car motor.

 

[N801BH]

Somebody stole your engine and replaced it with a car motor.

Yup.... And I ain't sayin nuttin to nobody..... I get parts at 1/10 of the aviation prices, burn auto fuel at 1/2 the price of 100LL and NEVER have an AD force me to ground my plane ...

 

[Silvaire]

In another thread, Silvaire called me out an an "unengaged" owner, and questioned why I wasn't doing the relatively minor engine repairs myself.

The plane is in the shop and taken apart. To do it myself, I have to go down during business hours, which will cost me significant money.
Or, I can have him do everything else, cowl it back up, then go out on the weekend and fix what I can, and then pay him to come back and inspect it.

If this was an issue of me finding something and fixing it on my own, then yeah. I have done and do repairs to my bird, but at this time, with it in his shop and opened up, there is no economical way to accomplish that.

I am not "disengaged" from the ownership experience.
I have done two owner-assist annuals where I did all the grunt work, I do my research on parts and mechanical issues, I set priorities for maintenance, and I know my plane.
I replaced the door hinges and clevises under supervision of an IA, removed old avionics and wiring when the panel got upgraded, changed the oil and filter with my A&P watching (teaching me how to look for metal chips and how to safety the filter), repainted the engine mount, and replaced two aileron hinges.

Frankly, I will say that when it comes to engine, I am a little scared of doing my own work. Electric, no problem. Lighting, no problem. Interior, no problem.
But with the engine, it seems like there's million little things you can miss or not know. My screwdriver hand isn't 'calibrated' to know how much force and torque is correct, and I think I'll likely either under torque or overtorque something.

I would build a bathroom in my hangar without a second thought. But I have a phobia of the engine.

Fair enough Alan, I made an unqualified presumption about your situation - apologies

 

[PilotAlan]

Fair enough Alan, I made an unqualified presumption about your situation - apologies

No problem. We've all done it. It takes a big man to apologize.
In turn, I may have taken offense when none was intended. Even steven, we're good.

 

[Ted]

Yup.... And I ain't sayin nuttin to nobody..... I get parts at 1/10 of the aviation prices, burn auto fuel at 1/2 the price of 100LL and NEVER have an AD force me to ground my plane ...

Although the Zenith 601 owners weren't so fortunate, regardless of engine.

I still wish that we could've done HaasPower Specials in the 310 instead of having to overhaul the 520s, but I suppose I have another 2000 or so hours to get over it and hope the regs change.

 

[N801BH]

Although the Zenith 601 owners weren't so fortunate, regardless of engine.

I still wish that we could've done HaasPower Specials in the 310 instead of having to overhaul the 520s, but I suppose I have another 2000 or so hours to get over it and hope the regs change.

It would be nice if the FAA would consider the ( certified airframes for experimental R&D ) work to advance aviation in the propulsion arena. I know that could open up a whole can of worms as there will be people who would exploit that loophole and not really use the converted airframes for true R&D. Making a twin available for engine development work is a no brainer to me, and you, but the FAA is not that forward thinking.... I bet when they allowed experimentals years ago, they had no idea that segment of the fleet would grow to such a huge percentage.. Hopefully , one day we can move the ball ahead in powerplants like SVT and all the other great enhancments other sectors of the experimental movement fostered......

it is nice to dream ya know...

 

[bnt83]

It would be nice if the FAA would consider the ( certified airframes for experimental R&D ) work to advance aviation in the propulsion arena. I know that could open up a whole can of worms as there will be people who would exploit that loophole and not really use the converted airframes for true R&D. Making a twin available for engine development work is a no brainer to me, and you, but the FAA is not that forward thinking.... I bet when they allowed experimentals years ago, they had no idea that segment of the fleet would grow to such a huge percentage.. Hopefully , one day we can move the ball ahead in powerplants like SVT and all the other great enhancments other sectors of the experimental movement fostered......

it is nice to dream ya know...

I'm not following your logic. What do you mean "make a twin availabe for R&D work"?

How do you think companies get STC's to re-engine certificated airframes?

Edit, im going to dinner and my phone won't let me comment on POA for some reason so I'll be back after a while.

 

[Skylane81E]

He means using a twin as a flying test bed for a "new" engine design, as discussed in another thread.