Angry - Pencil whipped annuals

PilotAlan

PilotAlan

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PilotAlan
So, I take care of my plane. I maintain anything that squawks during the year, I don't defer maintenance (other than minor items or upgrades that are easier to take care of at annual).
I have my A&P shop inspect and give me a list of squawks they find at annual, and everything is fixed. Wear parts are often replaced on time, and I don't skimp.

I hadn't been thrilled with some things, but overall it seemed like a good shop. Other pilots are happy with them, and I ignored the idiosyncrasies.
So, my starter started acting up. My A&P cleaned it, lubed, said "it's good!" The next time I went to start (and every time thereafter) it was exactly the same as before. Hmmmmmm.

There's a new shop on the field with a good reputation (new to us, they came from another field). I decided to give them a shot, and said "take a look at my starter".
The owner said sure, and I'll take a look around under the cowling while we're there. OK, always good to have a different set of eyes take a look.

Well DAMN! Here's what they found:
===========================
- Starter Bendix gear is worn, remove and replace starter assembly (I knew that)
$460 for Hartzell starter, 2hrs shop time $150 = $610

- Muffler assembly, forward and aft, internal baffles are deteriorated and have collapsed, partially blocking the tail pipes. Replace.
$574 for two new mufflers, 3.5hrs $262 = $836

- Fuel selector valve is leaking
He sent me a photo with blue dye dried around the center of the fuel selector, and in the backing seeping into the carpet under the selector (it was hidden by the seat so I couldn't see it when climbing in and out, but should have been immediately visible when the interior was out and the bird was annualed).
Part $406, 3.75hrs $282 = $688

- Induction hoses are deteriorated, #2 induction tube is leaking. Replace
Parts $34, 2hrs $150 = $184

- Cylinder rocker drain back tubes are cracked and leaking
Parts $12, 1hr $75 = $87

- Rocker cover gaskets are seeping on all cylinders.
Parts $12, 1.5hr $112 = $124

- Primer line support clamp at #1 cylinder is cracked and line is not supported
One adel clamp and .25hr labor = $20
===============================

So now I'm looking at something around $3k (over half of that being two new mufflers, a new starter and a new fuel selector).

WTF? Is it so hard to ask an A&P to simply maintain your aircraft?

Now I am looking for parts sources with lower cost. Before I brought the plane in, the shop owner and I spoke. If I can find parts at lower prices (through Piper Owners or other places), I will provide the part and have him charge what would be his markup.
I don't want to take him for his parts margin, but I will take any savings on the cost of the part I can get.

Can anyone give me a reality check on the labor hours for some of these items?

fuel+selector+leak+9050J+001.jpg
 
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Actually, that's not bad.

Your airplane, Alan, is an example of why MY mechanic does an inspection prior to a buy. Some mechs labor under the notion, "well, the cost will cause the owner to sh_t himself, so I'm not going to propose a fix. If I don't see it, it's not unairworthy".

God my guy is expensive, but he keeps the parts cost down if he can. I just got a bill for $355. "Fuel leak". Guess what, the "full tank" smell in the cabin- it's gone. It was in for something else....I happily paid.
 
PilotAlan said:
So, I take care of my plane. I maintain anything that squawks during the year, I don't defer maintenance (other than minor items or upgrades that are easier to take care of at annual).
I have my A&P shop inspect and give me a list of squawks they find at annual, and everything is fixed. Wear parts are often replaced on time, and I don't skimp.

I hadn't been thrilled with some things, but overall it seemed like a good shop. Other pilots are happy with them, and I ignored the idiosyncrasies.
So, my starter started acting up. My A&P cleaned it, lubed, said "it's good!" The next time I went to start (and every time thereafter) it was exactly the same as before. Hmmmmmm.

There's a new shop on the field with a good reputation (new to us, they came from another field). I decided to give them a shot, and said "take a look at my starter".
The owner said sure, and I'll take a look around under the cowling while we're there. OK, always good to have a different set of eyes take a look.

Well DAMN! Here's what they found:
===========================
- Starter Bendix gear is worn, remove and replace starter assembly (I knew that)
$460 for Hartzell starter, 2hrs shop time $150 = $610

- Muffler assembly, forward and aft, internal baffles are deteriorated and have collapsed, partially blocking the tail pipes. Replace.
$574 for two new mufflers, 3.5hrs $262 = $836

- Fuel selector valve is leaking
He sent me a photo with blue dye dried around the center of the fuel selector, and in the backing seeping into the carpet under the selector (it was hidden by the seat so I couldn't see it when climbing in and out, but should have been immediately visible when the interior was out and the bird was annualed).
Part $406, 3.75hrs $282 = $688

- Induction hoses are deteriorated, #2 induction tube is leaking. Replace
Parts $34, 2hrs $150 = $184

- Cylinder rocker drain back tubes are cracked and leaking
Parts $12, 1hr $75 = $87

- Rocker cover gaskets are seeping on all cylinders.
Parts $12, 1.5hr $112 = $124

- Primer line support clamp at #1 cylinder is cracked and line is not supported
One adel clamp and .25hr labor = $20
===============================

So now I'm looking at something around $3k (over of that being two new mufflers, a new starter and a new fuel selector).

WTF? Is it so hard to ask an A&P to simply maintain your aircraft?

Now I am looking for parts sources with lower cost. Before I brought the plane in, the shop owner and I spoke. If I can find parts at lower prices (through Piper Owners or other places), I will provide the part and have him charge what would be his markup.
I don't want to take him for his parts margin, but I will take any savings on the cost of the part I can get.

Can anyone give me a reality check on the labor hours for some of these items?
Click to expand...

I skimmed your list, don't get the cork gaskets, get the silicon (or whatever ones) and don't over tighten them, takes about an hour to do all of them, a little more if the old ones are cork and welded on. Do it yourself.

The drain back tubes are about $2 worth of standard hose (I can get the spec for you, if you like) a little bit of a pain to change but no big deal. Do it yourself.

The primer line adel clamp? 50 cents. Do it yourself.

Induction hoses? Do it yourself.


The fuel selector is pricey if you can find it, some can be rebuilt, some cannot. Let the pros' handle it. Price is about right.

Piper's exhaust is horrible, let the pros handle it. Price is about right.

Starter, let the pros handle it. Price is about right, Though there is a lightweight replacment that you might consider.


Good A&P/IA's can get tunnel vision over the years and in between annuals, especially if it's a plane they're taking care of, it happens. I'm not ready to bad mouth your A&P.
 
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bbchien said:
Your airplane, Alan, is an example of why MY mechanic does an inspection prior to a buy. Some mechs labor under the notion, "well, the cost will cause the owner to sh_t himself, so I'm not going to propose a fix. If I don't see it, it's not unairworthy".
Click to expand...

I agree. I had an independent mechanic do a pre-buy annual on mine before I bought it.

But if you don't *already* have a good mechanic, how to you *get* a good mechanic? The A&P I have been using has roundly been praised by the pilots I know at the field, and they've been there far longer than I.
I have never griped about cost, and have actively encouraged my A&P to be proactive with maintenance.

This stuff didn't just happen, and the muffler baffles are something I have specifically told him to look out for (due to danger of sudden loss of power in flight). That finding made be break out in a cold sweat.

The lesson is to learn how to spot these things yourself (other than the fuel selector, that was simply my fault for not sliding the seat back and looking).
But part of me is saying "I pay GOOD MONEY for an A&P to inspect and maintain my bird! I shouldn't have to play Jr. A&P to make sure he's doing it!"
</rant>
Hopefully this year I'll have enough leave to be able to do another owner assist annual, and learn more this stuff myself.
 
bartmc said:
I skimmed your list,
...
Good A&P/IA's can get tunnel vision over the years and in between annuals, especially if it's a plane they're taking care of, it happens. I'm not ready to bad mouth your A&P.
Click to expand...

Thanks Bart. I appreciate the reality check.

The plane's in their shop, taken apart. I can't take the time off work to go to their place, and I don't want them to put it back together and then try to do it myself in my hangar, then have them come and inspect it (when I'm not there).

With my current job, every unbillable hour costs me about $75, so I'll have them do it. Just the drive to the airport and back will cost $150.
The stuff I *can* do will cost me more to do myself.
 
PilotAlan said:
Well DAMN! Here's what they found:
===========================
- Starter Bendix gear is worn, remove and replace starter assembly (I knew that)
$460 for Hartzell starter, 2hrs shop time $150 = $610

The starter is an easy do, DIY order it from Aircraft specialities or aeroinstock.com. save the mark up by the new A&P

- Muffler assembly, forward and aft, internal baffles are deteriorated and have collapsed, partially blocking the tail pipes. Replace.
$574 for two new mufflers, 3.5hrs $262 = $836

Remove them and send them to Acornwelding in Canada they will IRAN and return and they will be like new.

- Fuel selector valve is leaking
He sent me a photo with blue dye dried around the center of the fuel selector, and in the backing seeping into the carpet under the selector (it was hidden by the seat so I couldn't see it when climbing in and out, but should have been immediately visible when the interior was out and the bird was annualed).
Part $406, 3.75hrs $282 = $688

Remove it your self, and get the part number off the tag, go looking on line for a replacement, they are not that expensive.

- Induction hoses are deteriorated, #2 induction tube is leaking. Replace
Parts $34, 2hrs $150 = $184

You are going to have the exhaust off the intake tube are only 8 more bolts and 4 new gaskets.and by the way, go to NAPA and have them cut new hoses from fuel hose and make them 1/2" longer and replace the cheap Lycoming clamps with good ones from a hardware store.

- Cylinder rocker drain back tubes are cracked and leaking
Parts $12, 1hr $75 = $87

they are nothing to make new ones using the old hardware.

- Rocker cover gaskets are seeping on all cylinders.
Parts $12, 1.5hr $112 = $124

That's an easy do typical gasket remove and replace X 4

- Primer line support clamp at #1 cylinder is cracked and line is not supported
One adel clamp and .25hr labor = $20

Their shop rate must be over $100 hour, you can work cheaper than that.
===============================

So now I'm looking at something around $3k (over of that being two new mufflers, a new starter and a new fuel selector).

WTF? Is it so hard to ask an A&P to simply maintain your aircraft?

Now I am looking for parts sources with lower cost. Before I brought the plane in, the shop owner and I spoke. If I can find parts at lower prices (through Piper Owners or other places), I will provide the part and have him charge what would be his markup.
I don't want to take him for his parts margin, but I will take any savings on the cost of the part I can get.

Can anyone give me a reality check on the labor hours for some of these items?
Click to expand...

There sure ain't 3k of work there. time to get your hands dirty.
 
Well "new shop" on the field looking to draw in business, it's not uncommon for them to try make your "old shop" look bad. I know you didn't mean it this way and you are "angry" but your post almost comes across as if you think your old A&P is the person responsible for things on your old Piper wearing out.

FWIW I could do an inspection on your old Piper right now and come up with another half dozen, maybe nit-picky, maybe not so nit-picky gripes your "new" shop missed.

It's the nature of the beast.
 
Silvaire said:
Well "new shop" on the field looking to draw in business, it's not uncommon for them to try make your "old shop" look bad. I know you didn't mean it this way and you are "angry" but your post almost comes across as if you think your old A&P is the person responsible for things on your old Piper wearing out.

FWIW I could do an inspection on your old Piper right now and come up with another half dozen, maybe nit-picky, maybe not so nit-picky gripes your "new" shop missed.

It's the nature of the beast.
Click to expand...

Throttle control age & binding is always a good one I seem to find...
 
bartmc said:
I skimmed your list, don't get the cork gaskets, get the silicon (or whatever ones) and don't over tighten them, takes about an hour to do all of them, a little more if the old ones are cork and welded on. Do it yourself.

The drain back tubes are about $2 worth of standard hose (I can get the spec for you, if you like) a little bit of a pain to change but no big deal. Do it yourself.

The primer line adel clamp? 50 cents. Do it yourself.

Induction hoses? Do it yourself.


The fuel selector is pricey if you can find it, some can be rebuilt, some cannot. Let the pros' handle it. Price is about right.

Piper's exhaust is horrible, let the pros handle it. Price is about right.

Starter, let the pros handle it. Price is about right, Though there is a lightweight replacment that you might consider.


Good A&P/IA's can get tunnel vision over the years and in between annuals, especially if it's a plane they're taking care of, it happens. I'm not ready to bad mouth your A&P.
Click to expand...

Rusty wrote almost exactly what I was gonna write. Get involved, get dirty, get some tools. Before putting the rocker(valve) cover back on, if it is the flat flange type you can surface it with a piece of glass and some 600 wet sandpaper. If it has the sealing ridges check that the screw holes are not recessed from too much torque. If you do the intake hoses I would recommend replacing the intake gaskets at the same time.

The bendix on your starter is a common wear item. Contact a starter rebuild place and ask them if they offer a field kit for the bendix. Or, go for a lightweight now.

<edit, Tom D caught everything as well, I should have read it first>
 
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RotorAndWing said:
Muffler assembly, forward and aft, internal baffles are deteriorated and have collapsed, partially blocking the tail pipes. Replace.
Click to expand...

This didn't happen overnight.
Click to expand...

Agreed, that's a particularly troubling "miss" - one that could bring the ship down.
 
There is an itinerant mech on my field. The guy I use, whenever one of those airplanes rolls into the shop, does a survey and then lays out the brutality of the situation.

I have looked at some of these for purchase and have walked away every time. More than one annual by that guy is DEATH to the aircraft. And universally the owners are (1) not preparing for 2020, (2) have automotive parts installed, and (3) all sorts of critical problems that a non A&P can find in less than 15 minutes.

Our mech is afraid to sign off any of these a/c and the bill is always substantial. So the cycle self perpetuates.
 
Alan

Dawley for the muffler, no place else. Everything else, next time you're at the field on Saturday, stop by the EAA guys and ask for the best place to shop. I agree on the silicon gaskets - Lycoming has finally accepted them PMA.
 
Silvaire said:
Well "new shop" on the field looking to draw in business, it's not uncommon for them to try make your "old shop" look bad. I know you didn't mean it this way and you are "angry" but your post almost comes across as if you think your old A&P is the person responsible for things on your old Piper wearing out.

FWIW I could do an inspection on your old Piper right now and come up with another half dozen, maybe nit-picky, maybe not so nit-picky gripes your "new" shop missed.

It's the nature of the beast.
Click to expand...

There's really not a competition between the 2 shops, at least not that I've seen. Shop A (the one Alan, Frankenkota & I have used for years) needed a borescope for my engine last fall. Shop B (the new one, really isn't new, they moved from another airport when it got nasty over there) loaned it to them and even came over and it became a team effort.

Both shops have more work than they really can handle right now.
 
PilotAlan said:
Thanks Bart. I appreciate the reality check.

The plane's in their shop, taken apart. I can't take the time off work to go to their place, and I don't want them to put it back together and then try to do it myself in my hangar, then have them come and inspect it (when I'm not there).

With my current job, every unbillable hour costs me about $75, so I'll have them do it. Just the drive to the airport and back will cost $150.
The stuff I *can* do will cost me more to do myself.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with Alan on this. There's a break-even point doing it yourself (assuming you want to and have the aptitude to do it - I don't) vs someone else. When I'm working I have the same issue as Alan - if I'm not there I can't bill time (when I'm consulting). If it's a salaried job, then I have to take paid time off. In my industry, we have deadlines that are rarely negotiable and getting any time off usually impacts everything else. So I have to depend on the shop. That's what I pay them for.
 
To be honest, I wouldn't call that list "pencil whipped." The parts most concerning to me are the muffler and the fuel selector valve. Oil leaks aren't to be ignored, but many planes have them and they can be difficult to fully pinpoint. The cork gaskets don't always seal well, especially if your rocker covers are warped. I agree all of these items are important to be fixed, but at $3k, I've seen much worse, and I think it's reasonable for the work they're performing. If the price is bothersome to you, maybe your old mechanic knows this and is afraid of giving you a sticker shock. Alternately, maybe he misinterprets your true desires as an aircraft owner.

If you like this new shop, though, I would just use them. Our old shop had a lot of things they did wrong and either missed, didn't talk about, or didn't fix. Our new shop has caught a lot of things and, not surprisingly, our bill from them was quite large as a result of playing catch-up. But the price was fair for the work done, and everything needed to be done. The plane is better than ever, I'm happy to say. I also suspect that next year's annual should be significantly cheaper since we've attacked a lot of due (and overdue) items on the list.
 
I think from the list provided that you are getting an ok deal on what they are doing. I can't say that they are stretching out anything, the times seem legit. If you don't have the time to help, then you simply don't have the time.

One question I might have missed was, when was the last annual done? It sounds recent but I couldn't find that anywhere. If it was a while ago then it doesn't take long for fuel to stain carpet. Not saying they didn't miss it, but that one sticks out like a sore thumb for sure. Could there be a chance that it was an old lead that was fixed long ago but the carpet was not cleaned? Just asking?

Have you asked your last shop about the things that were found?

All in all if they did miss all of that recently then you might want to have a chat with them about it. You frustration is understandable.
 
When I was an owner, I always expected a large bill the first time the plane was seen by the new mechanic.
 
The fuel selector valve is REALLY problematic. That's why we pull the seats out. In addition to the perils of having fuel running into the cockpit if fuel is coming out AIR is also likely going in and in a low wing plane that is BAD.

Some of the other issues are common but you might as well pay the bullet for the small dollars to fix them. The injector spiders may never have had the support that he added, but it usually couldn't hurt to stave off another cracked line. Lycoming rocker gaskets tend to leak (especially if they're the cork ones). I replaced mine with the rubber ones and frankly, I got tired of finding the screws in the bottom of the cowling so Margy spent an afternoon and safety wired them all.

The other issue is sometimes mechanics get complacent on a plane they see all the time. Much like flying with the same instructor all the time, it sometimes helps to get another set of eyes on the problem/.
 
tiger said:
Did not know this. What are you looking for, and how?
Click to expand...

Look for oil leaks and fuel stains... the condition of the drain back tubes and the induction hoses can be checked with a visual inspection. Just open up the cowl and look carefully at everything. If something is leaking, or looks old and worn, it probably needs some work.

As for the mufflers, I'd guess you would need to shine a light up there or maybe a borescope
 
bnt83 said:
It varies but this should give you an idea whats up there. Simply look up the tailpipe with a flashlight.

http://n631s.blogspot.com/2012/03/2012-annual-inspection-vi.html

http://n631s.blogspot.com/2012/03/2012-annual-inspection-iii.html
Click to expand...

The site you have pointed out has a Cessna / Lycoming muffler shown, totally different than a Piper PA 28 in the first post. Which by the way has an AD on most of the mufflers that requires a bail to be installed to prevent the internal baffles from blocking the exit of the muffler.

You'd be one very lucky dude to see a loose baffle in a Piper muffler on preflight.

The PA 28 muffler, this is what you are look at.

http://www.acornwelding.com/pdf/Piper/Piper Singles/PA28-140-150-160-180.pdf
 
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Tom-D said:
The site you have pointed out has a Cessna / Lycoming muffler shown, totally different than a Piper PA 28 in the first post. Which by the way has an AD on most of the mufflers that requires a bail to be installed to prevent the internal baffles from blocking the exit of the muffler.

You'd be one very lucky dude to see a loose baffle in a Piper muffler on preflight.

The PA 28 muffler, this is what you are look at.

http://www.acornwelding.com/pdf/Piper/Piper Singles/PA28-140-150-160-180.pdf
Click to expand...


Hopefully Alan will chime in here and let us know if the (BAIL) was installed in his muffler......
 
N801BH said:
Hopefully Alan will chime in here and let us know if the (BAIL) was installed in his muffler......
Click to expand...

Well actually it isn't installed "IN" the muffler, its attached to the end of the exhaust pipe that sticks up into the muffler. It in there, but it comes out with the exhaust pipe.

The only fool proof way to tell if you have "stuff" floating around in a piper muffler is to remove it and shake it.
 
flyingron said:
The fuel selector valve is REALLY problematic. That's why we pull the seats out. In addition to the perils of having fuel running into the cockpit if fuel is coming out AIR is also likely going in and in a low wing plane that is BAD.
Click to expand...

Why is air going in bad in a low wing plane? If there are no outward signs of fuel leakage, can the selector still be sucking in air and, if so, how can it be detected?
 
flyingron said:
The other issue is sometimes mechanics get complacent on a plane they see all the time. Much like flying with the same instructor all the time, it sometimes helps to get another set of eyes on the problem/.
Click to expand...

Concur. This is one reason I almost always use a different shop for annual than I do for routine maintenance.
 
jbrrapa said:
Why is air going in bad in a low wing plane? If there are no outward signs of fuel leakage, can the selector still be sucking in air and, if so, how can it be detected?
Click to expand...

Possibly cause gravity is not giving the fuel much help to move along the lines, and its getting pulled through the fuel selector by the engine driven and aux boost pump. A severe leak would cause the pumps to suck in enough air they would not be effective, and it would not self-prime like a system with the fuel located above the lines/pumps
 
jbrrapa said:
Why is air going in bad in a low wing plane? If there are no outward signs of fuel leakage, can the selector still be sucking in air and, if so, how can it be detected?
Click to expand...

There's plenty of sign of leakage in this case. But yes, it can allow air in without leaking any fuel.
 
jonnyjetprop said:
When I was an owner, I always expected a large bill the first time the plane was seen by the new mechanic.
Click to expand...
Yep. Different eyes find and prioritize different things even though there is only a single standard.

As a owner and now a builder/owner I'd suggest thinking through a few things.

At first I wanted to do owner-assist work in order to learn. That slows things down and costs more money. Mechanics aren't normally paid to train me though some are more than willing.

Without the many skills involved even in a simple inspection, I had trouble identifying problem areas, let alone running around finding cheap parts and doing any of the work permitted under the regs. If you have the time and help required to do this, no problem. But it takes extra time and experienced help to do it effectively.

Letting the fuel selector leak like it did is the kind of thing I would have missed 10 years ago... now as a builder/repairman I like to think I would have been all over it.

I spent 6 months, 7days a week working alongside a mechanic/IA as I completed my build. Watching him do annuals on planes with 2 hours on them since his last inspection was enlightening. He pulled them apart the same way he pulled apart the 200 hour flyers. But it was so painful listening to owners bitching about the cost "since I only flew it twice".

That 6 months along with the other 4.5 years building a plane gave me even more respect for aircraft maintenance than I had before. A great way to reduce and manage maintenance costs is to build your own, but only if your life permits.

Bill "waiting to attend Lycoming Engine School in March" Watson
 
dell30rb said:
Look for oil leaks and fuel stains... the condition of the drain back tubes and the induction hoses can be checked with a visual inspection. Just open up the cowl and look carefully at everything. If something is leaking, or looks old and worn, it probably needs some work.

As for the mufflers, I'd guess you would need to shine a light up there or maybe a borescope
Click to expand...
Sorry, yeah - I'm thinking of the muffler specifically. Almost all my time is in PA28 and I've done all that other stuff, at least on those models where the cowling opens without complete removal, but never tried shining a flashlight into the pipe.

Thanks also Tom-D.
 
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flyingmoose said:
I think from the list provided that you are getting an ok deal on what they are doing. I can't say that they are stretching out anything, the times seem legit.
Click to expand...
Thanks, that's what I was more concerned about was did the times seem right for the work quoted. Not being a mechanic, I don't know how to rate that (and with a new shop I don't have any history).
One question I might have missed was, when was the last annual done?
Click to expand...
September, 2012.
N801BH said:
Hopefully Alan will chime in here and let us know if the (BAIL) was installed in his muffler......
Click to expand...
I was out at the airport this morning, and it doesn't look like it.

So, here's what we're doing:
1 - We're sending the muffler to Acorn (thanks Tom). With old, heat formed parts, there's a chance new mufflers wouldn't mate up with the headers(?) (exhaust stacks?) on the engine. IRANing the existing ones will ensure they fit.

2 - Hartzell starter. Couldn't find a better price before his markup (which I won't take away from him, that's not fair to him).

3 - Fuel selector. He's removing and getting the part number off it. I will see if I can get a serviceable unit from Wentworth or the like (only if there's a significant savings).
Also looking into compatibility to replace with the later Archer style that won't allow you to accidentally select "off" (with the older PA28s, there are four detents and two are "off", I don't like that).

4 - Valve covers getting replaced with silicone.

Everything else is getting done. Down payment this morning of $1500 so he can get the parts coming and work going. He doesn't know me, either, so it's a reasonable request.
Nothing being deferred, might as well get it done now.

Any other ideas, let me know.
 
PilotAlan said:
There's a new shop on the field with a good reputation (new to us, they came from another field). I decided to give them a shot, and said "take a look at my starter".
The owner said sure, and I'll take a look around under the cowling while we're there. OK, always good to have a different set of eyes take a look.

Well DAMN! Here's what they found:
===========================
- Starter Bendix gear is worn, remove and replace starter assembly (I knew that)
$460 for Hartzell starter, 2hrs shop time $150 = $610
Click to expand...

I rebuilt my starter $175 and 24 hrs turn around....labor wasn't 2 hrs it was 1 hr. $75 per hour is a bit high as well. I think I pay $55 per hour.

PilotAlan said:
- Muffler assembly, forward and aft, internal baffles are deteriorated and have collapsed, partially blocking the tail pipes. Replace.
$574 for two new mufflers, 3.5hrs $262 = $836
Click to expand...

I know there expensive but I would have considered Powerflow STC at this point. Supposed to add about 12-13% more effective power on the 180 Cherokee.

PilotAlan said:
- Fuel selector valve is leaking
He sent me a photo with blue dye dried around the center of the fuel selector, and in the backing seeping into the carpet under the selector (it was hidden by the seat so I couldn't see it when climbing in and out, but should have been immediately visible when the interior was out and the bird was annualed).
Part $406, 3.75hrs $282 = $688
Click to expand...
Seems excessive labor here.

PilotAlan said:
- Induction hoses are deteriorated, #2 induction tube is leaking. Replace
Parts $34, 2hrs $150 = $184
Click to expand...
each of the hourly items are on the high side and rounded up....if they each come in at quoted I would start to doubt this guy is completely honest. I don't think we spent 2 hrs replacing all the hoses on my Cherokee not just induction.

PilotAlan said:
- Cylinder rocker drain back tubes are cracked and leaking
Parts $12, 1hr $75 = $87
Click to expand...
again a 15 minute deal that is rounded up to 1 hr on top of five other items already rounded up....

PilotAlan said:
- Rocker cover gaskets are seeping on all cylinders.
Parts $12, 1.5hr $112 = $124
Click to expand...
diddo

PilotAlan said:
- Primer line support clamp at #1 cylinder is cracked and line is not supported
One adel clamp and .25hr labor = $20
===============================

So now I'm looking at something around $3k (over half of that being two new mufflers, a new starter and a new fuel selector).
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I averaged about $600 per year annual inspection w/oil change and another $400-600 per year maintenance so your bill is about 3 years maintenance on my Cherokee......I had a high time rental fleet aircraft.

Can anyone give me a reality check on the labor hours for some of these items? 15 hrs seems excessive.
 
We all seem leave the paper work out of the cost equation.

What really p's me off is paying the same shop rates for my car and knowing how much less they do and are liable for.
 
Bill Watson said:
We all seem leave the paper work out of the cost equation.

What really p's me off is paying the same shop rates for my car and knowing how much less they do and are liable for.
Click to expand...

supply & demand?
 
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