And the word is - it's totaled.

[brian]]

The day started out very well. I was cruising along just shy of 140KTS true with the auto pilot flying at 8,500 so I could enjoy the sights - and take a few iPhone pics. That old bird ran smooth from Arkansas to KPNC (Ponca City).


I took on some gas and called family in Liberal to let them know I was on my way ...

Preflight was good - nothing looked out of sorts. Fired up, did a run up and took off. Then I heard a and felt a "pop". I thought I had hit a bird - ugh. Checked and re-checked everything and the climb was normal.

Well, long story short - I soon realized that the nose gear did not retract. This can happen on older Bonanzas where the retract rod fails. Was not the case this time, but the net result is the same: your gonna ruin a perfectly good engine and prop.

There are 5 stages of grief:
1. Denial and Isolation - I'm was feeling pretty alone up there and I sure didn't want this to be true. So I cycled the gear several times while looking in the wing tip mirrors: that black object in the center didn't move in either direction

2. Anger - I sure hope no kids heard all the bad words I was saying AT THE TOP OF MY LUNGS! (Sorry to anyone on the radio if I happened to key the mic.

3. Bargaining - Well, I bargained with the old beast. I said: this is about to hurt you WAY more than it will hurt me. Might as well work one more time and we can get you fixed...

4. Depression - After I called Wichita Radio (I was VFR) to declare I got pretty depressed. Confessing did help clear the air, but man what a depressing radio call.

5. Acceptance - It was now time to pull out the book and re-read the emergency procedures for a gear up landing in an early Bonanza




Anyway, I've posted this elsewhere, but after three years of flying/restoring, one part we didn't replace failed on my -35 and it was landed with mains down and nose gear up. All I can say to Bonanza guys: get those rod ends replaced. (Yea, they last nearly forever, but ...)



Insurance value is $34. But the gear up landing combined with a botched recovery put the repair costs over $50K! Well, don't take rocket surgery to figure out $50K buys a really nice older 35 - and I've already started looking. Already dropped my shop a note that we will be replacing all the rod ends on the next one...

But this year, it looks like I won't be flying to Gastons (or will he ...)

 

[kayoh190]

Glad you're okay, but ugh - that really sucks.

 

[Bill]

:-( Glad you're OK, sorry for the otherwise really nice looking Bo.

 

[timwinters]

As I said in the Gaston's thread...

That just sucks on so many levels.

Sorry Brian.

 

[Unit74]

Brian

If I wasn't moving out of state in two weeks, you know you would have had a ride. I've got one more trip to pine bluff for an avionics tweak and mine is done. I did metastasize a gear issue as well. The solenoid fails to retract once in 4 or 5 tries.

I was turning circles around BDQ and felt similar to you. Gear in transit, no greens......awe sh,t. Cycled a few times and it finally worked.

Is insurance paying out $50k or? You gonna stick with a Bo or go twin? Know it's been on your mind.

 

[brian]]

Yikes! Yea - get that gear looked at.

Funny thing is I posted over on the Red Board about getting into something that I could fly my elderly mom and mother in law and the Lance came up. Didn't even think about that when I was looking over your bird a few months ago. (A talk with my wife this weekend left it with the reality their flying days are most likely over anyway. Hard conversation there.)

Anyway, it will most likely be another 35. Just not sure what year. I keep considering C177RGs, C182s or even a Mooney. But I've learned a lot about the old 35s and how they work. For what I do, a Bonanza is a very nice fit.

A 55 is not out, but .... well, just not sure yet. This trip in the -35 was to start using GA for business. That fell into the sh..er. A 55 (or even a 310) would be less "for fun" and more "for business". Just not there yet I guess.

 

[eman1200]

dagnabit that sux big time. glad you're ok though, most importantly. when you say 'botched recovery', what happened there?

 

[brian]]

I "landed" after 5PM on a Saturday and all I had to help were two teenagers. Together they might have been 200# soaking wet. I had to get another over the hill fat guy (another pilot) to help me get the tail down and somehow get the aircraft off the main runway at KLBL. All we had was a tug and no past experience to rely on. The effort resulted in more damage to the nose of the aircraft.

I've never recovered an aircraft from an active runway and never thought I would have to. But when you are landing at sleepy airports, well, best to wait all night (if needed) for the gray haired guys to show ...

 

[James331]

Sorry man... Pretty plane too

 

[Lindberg]

Man, that sucks. I'm not familiar with the area, but did you consider putting it down somewhere else that might have had better emergency services?

 

[brian]]

My goal was a nice long runway and familiar was nice. The main runway at Liberal is something like 7000'. As you can see - I didn't use that much of it. (Something to know for the future.)

Guess I could have crashed it at Tulsa. (But thinking that one through - don't they want to put the flame retardant on you for safety?)

Talking with the insurance guy- there is a good chance some A&P might buy it and take the time to do all the sheet metal work to repair the nose, etc. Just WAY outside my abilities.

 

[ChemGuy]

Glad your OK.
Sorry to that pretty bird go to the scrap yard. Hopefully her donor parts will keep many more older 35's flying.

 

[Acrodustertoo]

That is a bummer! Sad to see that happen, a very nice looking bo by the way. However, from the pictures you have executed a wonderful landing and should be proud of that . Had you any passengers with you they would have walked away with nothing more than a story to tell. Well done.

 

[vontresc]

Botched Recovery? What the hell did they do there?

 

[FastEddieB]

I always hate to hear this sort of thing.

Glad you're OK.

Good luck with your new plane search.

 

[eman1200]

did you take a selfie before u landed?

jk of course.

 

[Velocity173]

Sorry to hear. I had a cable snap in the Velocity and didn't get a green indication. Declared and made a landing in Sebastian, Fl. Gear held though and the only damage was replacing the cable that brings the gear up. I only keep liability so I would have been screwed in a gear up.

 

[labbadabba]

Did you land power-off? Looks like the prop stopped in the perfect position to avoid a strike...

 

[brian]]

Engine shutdown was when I had the runway "made". Emergency procedures call for all levers aft and mags off. (I smile every time I think about finding the keys in the back seat - I must have been a little excited.)

There are videos of guys landing with the prop stopped in conditions like this. I just have zero idea how far out they killed the engine. I landed and kept the nose off until the yoke was in my gut and I could pull no more - then the nose dropped with the prop still windmilling.

Anyone familiar with Beech 215 props? This one was 88" long - about as rare an item as you can find in aviation and this one was hung on my -35 early last year. Cost? $10K. Value now $0.

Ugh...

 

[James331]

...
Talking with the insurance guy- there is a good chance some A&P might buy it and take the time to do all the sheet metal work to repair the nose, etc. Just WAY outside my abilities.

I'd highly suspect that's what will end up happening.

 

[Witmo]

This is in no way a criticism. You did a fantastic job getting her down and safely stopped with only some bent metal. Given a 7000 foot runway, would anyone have considered purposely shutting down the engine and goosing the prop horizontal and doing a dead stick landing? I've done a ton of power-off 180s prepping for the commercial and I think I would given a nice long runway. I know some would say the insurance company owns the airplane as soon as something goes awry so why risk it, but given optimum circumstances, how many would attempt to minimize the payout?

 

[172andyou]

This is in no way a criticism. You did a fantastic job getting her down and safely stopped with only some bent metal. Given a 7000 foot runway, would anyone have considered purposely shutting down the engine and goosing the prop horizontal and doing a dead stick landing? I've done a ton of power-off 180s prepping for the commercial and I think I would given a nice long runway. I know some would say the insurance company owns the airplane as soon as something goes awry so why risk it, but given optimum circumstances, how many would attempt to minimize the payout?

He did that. See above.

 

[brian]]

It's one of those things you really need to practice before you do it. Conversation over on Beech Talk is that it can be done (there is video evidence of this). BUT, it ain't easy.

I'm just shy of 400 hours and not sure I would have done much different. Ok, minus the recovery. All I can say there is, well, I'm still not sure how it would have been done differently. Just getting the tail down was a chore. Having someone prying on the nose gear doors with a crowbar would not have been something I could ask someone else to do - at least not with the lightweights I had for help.

 

[DrewG]

Really hate to hear (and see) this. It looks like you did a phenomenal job and thankful some bent metal was the only "physical" injury.

 

[Witmo]

He did that. See above.

Yeah, but the prop was still windmilling and I think I can see at least one blade was bent and since it was, the engine requires a teardown. If the prop were pulled all the way to coarse and then the engine shut down, it would probably have stopped pretty quick. Again, this isn't a criticism, just a discussion topic. Part of the reason I might have shut it down earlier is the fact that I've been towing gliders for eight years and have 1000s of power off landings on much shorter runways.

 

[EdFred]

Yeah, but the prop was still windmilling and I think I can see at least one blade was bent and since it was, the engine requires a teardown. If the prop were pulled all the way to coarse and then the engine shut down, it would probably have stopped pretty quick. Again, this isn't a criticism, just a discussion topic. Part of the reason I might have shut it down earlier is the fact that I've been towing gliders for eight years and have 1000s of power off landings on much shorter runways.

Some engines in order to get the prop stopped, you have to pretty much stall the airplane after pulling mixture. Are you suggesting he stall the airplane at altitude and dead stick it?

 

[Witmo]

Some engines in order to get the prop stopped, you have to pretty much stall the airplane after pulling mixture. Are you suggesting he stall the airplane at altitude and dead stick it?

That's true for fixed pitch props but if a controllable pitch prop is set at coarse pitch, the drag on the airplane is minimized but the drag on the prop rotation is maximized and it will stop quickly. I'd shut down abeam my touchdown point and dead stick it from there if I were to do it.

 

[Dave Theisen]

Kill the engine to save my butt, certainly. Kill the engine to save some money, nope.

There is video of the King Air a few years ago where the news guy is praising him for shutting down the engines. If the camera had zoomed out, you would have seen just how close he was to sliding off the end of the runway.

 

[EdFred]

Plus, on my three blade, it probably isn't going to matter.

 

[Witmo]

Plus, on my three blade, it probably isn't going to matter.

Probably not.

 

[iamtheari]

For me, the risk-reward favors making a gear-up landing with a power-on approach, whether or not I'm insured. With 100% of my attention on making a good gear-up landing, I am much less likely to screw it up and turn the plane into a fireball. The distractions of trying to stop the engine with the prop level with the wings far enough out that it actually stops windmilling and then making a long dead-stick approach are going to increase my chances of the fireball outcome.

A single-engine plane is going to windmill at least a little and probably not stop level with the wings anyhow, as they seem typically to be set up to quit with the right blade high, good for hand-propping. Even if you manage not to hurt the engine and prop, the tear-down is not orders of magnitude more expensive than the other repairs you'll need to pay for if you're uninsured (and your carrier isn't going to send you a plaque and a Sporty's gift card for your efforts if you save them the money). I also think a plane sold as "engine and prop overhauled after gear-up landing" has more value than one sold as "gear-up landing did no damage to engine or prop, honest!"

So in the end, if I ever have to land with fewer than three green lights, I'm going to make the approach with power. More skillful pilots may reach different conclusions.

To the OP: You're an ADM hero. Nice work and good luck in your search for another Bonanza. And if you ever have to land gear-up again, don't change your technique other than keeping the key in the ignition in case you need to open the baggage door to get to your suitcase and a fresh pair of shorts.

 

[hotprops]

i was taught to do as the op did. use the runway dont mess with props.good job brian

 

[Unit74]

Are you able to snatch out the 430W? You just upgraded it right?

 

[pburger]

Man, that sucks. I'm not familiar with the area, but did you consider putting it down somewhere else that might have had better emergency services?

Great job getting the plane down safely, but I've gotta think I would've gone somewhere with services. I've never had to ask anyone to roll the equipment, but landing without my nose gear would definitely be one of those times. I know that a retracted nose gear isn't as perilous as the television news makes it out to be, but there is always the possibility of a fire. Add to that the need to get the plane off the runway, etc. I would've at least lined up some help on the ground ahead of time.

I almost deleted this before posting, because it reads like I'm trying to criticize, but that's really not it. It's more of an analysis than anything else. I look at events like this and ask myself how I would've handled it. Would could/should I have done differently? What would I have done differently, if anything? What can I learn from this?

 

[Ted]

This is in no way a criticism. You did a fantastic job getting her down and safely stopped with only some bent metal. Given a 7000 foot runway, would anyone have considered purposely shutting down the engine and goosing the prop horizontal and doing a dead stick landing? I've done a ton of power-off 180s prepping for the commercial and I think I would given a nice long runway. I know some would say the insurance company owns the airplane as soon as something goes awry so why risk it, but given optimum circumstances, how many would attempt to minimize the payout?

This was the old way of thinking. The reality of it is that you might be able to do it on a twin (in practice about 1 time out of 50 it works successfully), but really there's just no point. As was mentioned on a single you basically need to be stopped before the prop will stop spinning since you don't have feathering propellers. More importantly, you risk turning an otherwise survivable incident into an injury when you do something you've never done before, under stress, in an emergency situation, single pilot. I've got 2,500 hours and if the gear fails on the 414, I'm leaving the engines running right into the ground (yes, 3-bladed props, will be 4-bladed with the new props so there are limited options there anyway). Just don't do it, the risk isn't worth the potential benefit. Emergency situations are not the time for heroics and trying to do like the movie stars would do, they're the time for calm thinking. If the wing is on fire, that's another matter.

@brian] I realize that you're thinking another -35 and they're fine planes. That said, you were talking twins a while ago and there are lots of "fun twin" options that you could get for the $50k range. An old 310, BE55, and BE95 all come to mind as options. A Twinkie would also be a good one. The BE95 Travel Air has a lot of similarities to the -35, with the benefits of a pair of Lycoming 360s. I think when you look at the end MPG, they won't be too far off. There was a tuna tank 310 I was involved with a few years ago - 530, autopilot, really a fun plane in good shape that you could've gotten for $28k, maybe even less.

Just throwing some additional ideas out there for you.

 

[rk911]

The day started out very well. I was cruising along just shy of 140KTS true with the auto pilot flying at 8,500 so I could enjoy the sights - and take a few iPhone pics. That old bird ran smooth from Arkansas to KPNC (Ponca City).
View attachment 47262

I took on some gas and called family in Liberal to let them know I was on my way ...

Preflight was good - nothing looked out of sorts. Fired up, did a run up and took off. Then I heard a and felt a "pop". I thought I had hit a bird - ugh. Checked and re-checked everything and the climb was normal.

Well, long story short - I soon realized that the nose gear did not retract. This can happen on older Bonanzas where the retract rod fails. Was not the case this time, but the net result is the same: your gonna ruin a perfectly good engine and prop.

There are 5 stages of grief:
1. Denial and Isolation - I'm was feeling pretty alone up there and I sure didn't want this to be true. So I cycled the gear several times while looking in the wing tip mirrors: that black object in the center didn't move in either direction

2. Anger - I sure hope no kids heard all the bad words I was saying AT THE TOP OF MY LUNGS! (Sorry to anyone on the radio if I happened to key the mic.

3. Bargaining - Well, I bargained with the old beast. I said: this is about to hurt you WAY more than it will hurt me. Might as well work one more time and we can get you fixed...

4. Depression - After I called Wichita Radio (I was VFR) to declare I got pretty depressed. Confessing did help clear the air, but man what a depressing radio call.

5. Acceptance - It was now time to pull out the book and re-read the emergency procedures for a gear up landing in an early Bonanza


View attachment 47259

Anyway, I've posted this elsewhere, but after three years of flying/restoring, one part we didn't replace failed on my -35 and it was landed with mains down and nose gear up. All I can say to Bonanza guys: get those rod ends replaced. (Yea, they last nearly forever, but ...)

View attachment 47260

Insurance value is $34. But the gear up landing combined with a botched recovery put the repair costs over $50K! Well, don't take rocket surgery to figure out $50K buys a really nice older 35 - and I've already started looking. Already dropped my shop a note that we will be replacing all the rod ends on the next one...

But this year, it looks like I won't be flying to Gastons (or will he ...)

glad you're ok. it's just a thing that can be replaced. looks like your landing was about as good as could be expected.

 

[Zeldman]

I landed the Chieftain yesterday with only two green lights. The third one was burned out. I switched it out with another to verify all three were down and locked.

My day turned out much happier. The passengers did not have any inkling that anything was not normal.

No need to second guess or airmchair quarterback anything. You did good and that is what matters.

 

[brian]]

Great job getting the plane down safely, but I've gotta think I would've gone somewhere with services. I've never had ask anyone to roll the equipment, but landing without my nose gear would definitely be one of those times. I know that a retracted nose gear isn't as perilous as the television news makes it out to be, but there is always the possibility of a fire. Add to that the need to get the plane off the runway, etc. I would've at least lined up some help on the ground ahead of time.

I almost deleted this before posting, because it reads like I'm trying to criticize, but that's really not it. It's more of an analysis than anything else. I look at events like this and ask myself how I would've handled it. Would could/should I have done differently? What would I have done differently, if anything? What can I learn from this?

Actually, kinda glad you posted. Something for others to think about (and something I might consider if flying a "bigger" aircraft).

I DID call ahead. My call to Wichita Radio was to let the folks at KLBL know I was headed there way and it would be a gear up.

I grew up in the area and always thought of Liberal as the "big town". But in reality, Liberal is a tiny spec and not much traffic on a Saturday night at KLBL. Tulsa might have been the best option if I thought I really needed a fire truck upon arrival and had the choice.

Something to think about ...

 

[bnt83]

How many years and hours was that part in service?

 

[brian]]

Failure data point:
5477 hours in 68.5 years.

Next set of rod ends will be replaced using the engine TBO - if not BEFORE.