Bill Watson
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An IFR Cross Country Hat Trick (for the pilot seeking some actual)
- Thread starter Bill Watson
- Start date
Let'sgoflying!
Touchdown! Greaser!
on leg #2, did I get that right, you were on an ifr clearance which included 'the pattern' as a waypoint??
tspear
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Timothy
Yeah, I caught that too. When I was giving that before, ATC has a MVA or obstacle clearance issue; often without Class E to the surface.
My answer was to always climb over the airport in a circling pattern to altitude till I had ATC, or I knew I clear everything around me and could then get on course.
Tim
Timbeck2
Final Approach
"...I noted that the RNAV has slightly higher mins than the ILS for reasons unclear to me but went in as planned..."
Because the ILS is more precise than RNAV.
Because the ILS is more precise than RNAV.
tspear
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Timothy
Not likely, usually has to do with TERPS. Something about the required shape of the cleared areas.
If I understand, WAAS is more of the rectangle while ILS is more of a pie wedge shape. Depending on obstacles, sometimes one will be lower then the other.
There is an FAA website where you can read a lot of information from the chart designers which cover such things. (This has come up a few times on other forums I am on)
Tim
Bill Watson
En-Route
Not exactly, I was cleared direct destination as filed, climb to 5,000, expect 9,000 in 10, and I was given all the void time information. I understood this to mean turn on a direct course after takeoff and enter controlled airspace on that course. But I thought that a bit odd.
What I expected was a specific instruction for entering controlled airspace. Something like, "(takeoff void times), enter controlled airspace heading 350 degree, climb 5,000, vectors then as filed". Especially since I was taking off on runway 24 into a low ceiling. I was surprised by the mention of 'pattern' at all.
Harold Rutila
Pre-takeoff checklist
Hmm. The instruction to call "once in the pattern" was either a mistake on the part of FSS, who runs the national CD hotline, or a mistake on the person at RDU who issued the clearance to FSS. I would file a NASA ASRS report on that at minimum. If you wanted to figure out what the deal really was, you could call RDU and ask. But in any case I wouldn't have accepted that instruction. My understanding from your story is that they didn't even issue you an IFR clearance at that point. Is that correct?
In the absence of the approach control or center's ability to provide you with a vector off of your departure airport, fly the textual ODP if one is available, or proceed on course after 400 feet AGL if there is not one. But you shouldn't depart into IFR conditions without having a clearance.
From what it sounds like, someone didn't want to issue an IFR clearance and brushed off your request. If they were too busy to release you off your departure airport, they could have issued the clearance with an instruction to hold for release. It is concerning to me that they implied you should depart into the pattern; that's not their call to make.
In the absence of the approach control or center's ability to provide you with a vector off of your departure airport, fly the textual ODP if one is available, or proceed on course after 400 feet AGL if there is not one. But you shouldn't depart into IFR conditions without having a clearance.
From what it sounds like, someone didn't want to issue an IFR clearance and brushed off your request. If they were too busy to release you off your departure airport, they could have issued the clearance with an instruction to hold for release. It is concerning to me that they implied you should depart into the pattern; that's not their call to make.
GMascelli
En-Route
just my two cents.....
".....keep the climb rate down and call them ASAP. By the time I had received the clearance and settled in I was back in VMC between layers."
I wouldn't have accepted "once in the pattern". Your statement has you climbing through a layer, if I read that right, before receiving the clearance, and that's a no go. You can always put it back on the ground and make a phone call. They needed to be perfectly aware of your conditions.
".....keep the climb rate down and call them ASAP. By the time I had received the clearance and settled in I was back in VMC between layers."
I wouldn't have accepted "once in the pattern". Your statement has you climbing through a layer, if I read that right, before receiving the clearance, and that's a no go. You can always put it back on the ground and make a phone call. They needed to be perfectly aware of your conditions.
Bill Watson
En-Route
That's an interesting take. I thought the mention of 'in the pattern' strange and indicative of some sense that conditions were not 'low IFR'.
On the other hand, I definitely had a clearance. First, I had a full route clearance just as I would have had at a towered airport. Second, I had a void time clearance which as far as I know would only be given to an aircraft departing an uncontrolled airport under IFR conditions (I'm not looking this up, just my understanding). So in my head, I got exactly what I asked for but with some non-standard chatter and without the specific heading I normally get at my home port.
My reaction to the clearance was a moment of hesitation to figure out exactly what my clearance meant. I ignored the mention of 'pattern' and thought it was just some repetition of some unnecessary and non-standard chatter that was picked up in the relay. Normally I call Raleigh up directly but no one seemed to be answering the direct line that day (which happens). Given the route clearance, my conclusion was that I was to simply take off and turn directly on course while climbing, which is exactly what I wanted to do.
My home 'port is an uncontrolled field that is right at the 10 mile edge of Raleigh's busy Class C. Every pre-takeoff clearance I've gotten there includes as specific heading to fly after takeoff and that heading is always away from KRDU which makes sense given the traffic. Often that heading is within 20 degrees of the direct course I would be flying but I always get a heading. In this case I was far away from Raleigh and my direct course was headed into the boonies so it made sense... I've just never gotten that before.
But my lack of total confidence is evident in my 'holding the climb rate down'. There was no possible reason to do that except that the 'pattern' thing stuck in my mind.
Bill Watson
En-Route
I didn't accept the 'pattern' piece but it definitely stuck in my mind. I took off into a low ceiling which I consider one of the most challenging moments of IFR flight. I knew that I would pop out based on my experience flying in <45 minutes earlier but that meant nothing relative to the clearance I was flying.
It's notable that the non-standard chatter was a distraction that actually had an effect my flying. It shouldn't have.
pburger
Pre-takeoff checklist
I'm a little late to this party, but I'll jump in.
Most folks have keyed on your departure into IMC apparently without a clearance, and I agree that this seems a bit sketchy. You said you received a void time clearance, which implies you received a release, so maybe you were good, but your own words make it sound as if you received a clearance in the air:
No one seems to have noticed that on leg 1 you clearly busted minimums. You flew the RNAV 6 approach, which has circling minimums of 960 (Cat A) or 980 (Cat B). That's either 434 or 454 AGL. You said you broke out at 300 AGL and then did a tight circle to land on 24. And you posted this on a public forum? I would delete your post if I were you. There is an approach to 24 with 250 AGL minimums. Why didn't you fly that approach?
Most folks have keyed on your departure into IMC apparently without a clearance, and I agree that this seems a bit sketchy. You said you received a void time clearance, which implies you received a release, so maybe you were good, but your own words make it sound as if you received a clearance in the air:
The "call in once in the pattern..." seems a bit weird to me.
No one seems to have noticed that on leg 1 you clearly busted minimums. You flew the RNAV 6 approach, which has circling minimums of 960 (Cat A) or 980 (Cat B). That's either 434 or 454 AGL. You said you broke out at 300 AGL and then did a tight circle to land on 24. And you posted this on a public forum? I would delete your post if I were you. There is an approach to 24 with 250 AGL minimums. Why didn't you fly that approach?
Bill Watson
En-Route
Good points. I think will do as suggested.
FWIW, I got the void time clearance and that's all on the tapes or whatever. Just a sloppy description...
...which leads to some sloppy flying because if I did the circle to land as described, it would have been stupid given conditions on the approach.
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BigBadLou
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Lou
Oh no worries, we noticed.
I just think that Bill simply accidentally typed 300 instead of the factual 500 (or similar). Happens to a LOT of pilots.
To illustrate my point, I will include this classic:
