An Almost Base-Final Turn Accident

[Unregistered]

I've had a few days to think about the chain of events and thought I'd share.

My passenger and I arrived at the airport later than I liked after dusk. I'm a night legal Private Pilot, so it was not an issue. Visibility was better than forecast, but it took some time to find better prevailing winds to make better groundspeed.

It has been awhile since my last night cross country and this trip was my first to the Class-D airport. The tower controller was helpful in adjusting the lighting to help distinguish my cleared runway from the many other surrounding lights and another nearby Class-D.

The return trip was just as uneventful, except knowing that home base may be challenging to find in night ground clutter, I task my passenger with helping to locate the field while I divert a little attention to GPS groundspeed vs. airspeed to help determine wind direction for landing. Radio chatter at a nearby Class-B is issuing instrument approach clearances to the south, but groundspeed indicates that my landing should be northbound. My passenger spots a landmark that I know well and I trace my eyes from there to locate home.

I attempt a straight-in approach to the north runway from 500' above pattern altitude and quickly realized that it's not going to work. A sidestep puts me on downwind for south landing 200' below pattern. Groundspeed confirms that I passed through a shear layer.

I raised the nose to attempt to get back to pattern altitude but didn't apply power as I'm now abeam the numbers. Stupidity is getting the better of me for not reconfiguring properly as I fight the aircraft to descend at target speed at a further reduced power setting. At target speed but still not in position vertically, I wait for timing to turn base and give 1st notch flaps.

I turn base and apply 2nd notch of flaps without reference to any instrumentation. My eyes are glued to the runway for over-concern of losing position and orientation.

In retrospect, my base-final turn was greater than 30 degrees. The stall warning horn caused me to pay attention to stupidity. Airspeed was near bottom of green arc, but it was bank angle that nearly caused an accident. At the warning horn, I immediately arrested the pull, silencing the horn, but failed to reduce bank angle. I really could have made the situation worse as the engine gave a little protest from a ham-fisted request for power.

After I salvaged the base-final situation, the remainder of the landing and rollout went well, saving a little pride and our lives.

I was too low at base-final caused by the original mistake of being 200' below pattern when abeam. I also never referenced the PAPI for the south approach.

I'm thankful for the genteel nature of the airplane I was flying. Anything else may have bitten me and I wouldn't have been able to post this.

 

[jesse]

WRONG. The bank angle is NOT what caused you to nearly stall. You nearly stalled because you were AFRAID of banking more and instead of banking more you PULLED. The pull increased your AoA and nearly killed you.

This is something that IS NOT COVERED WELL by many instructors. Had you just banked more steeply, and just let the nose fall, you would have fixed rolled out onto final without an issue. If you didn't have the altitude to make this turn (which requires very little) you had already seriously screwed up and need to learn to fly the pattern instead of doing a rote routine and hoping it works.

Exceeding the critical angle of attack is what kills you. Banking and letting the nose fall does not increase the angle of attack. Banking and then pulling to tighten the turn does.

This is probably the most valuable thing I learned by watching my dad crop dust as a kid.

Let me make this simple. This is how you die:
- You realize you are going to overshoot final. You realize you're banked 30 degrees. OMG you can't bank more or you'll die (someone silly told you).
- So you want to tighten your turn. You pull some power, you cheat with a skid on the rudder, and you pull on the yoke to tighten it up
- The above action causes you to exceed your critical AoA and you go into a spin from your skid and die.

You will not die if you:
-Watch the runway as you're turning final. Bank to roll out on a perfect final. Perfect this. Become the master of it. If you need more bank, do it, but STAY COORDINATED and DON'T PULL. You're not a robot. The pattern is very dynamic. You need to make the airplane go where you want it to go. That means you don't just turn to defined angles and cross your fingers like most pilots do.

 

[dmccormack]

Glad to read this here and not in an NTSB report.

Now, you may want to reconsider your landing pattern. It sounds like you're flying somewhat mechanically:

I raised the nose to attempt to get back to pattern altitude but didn't apply power as I'm now abeam the numbers. Stupidity is getting the better of me for not reconfiguring properly as I fight the aircraft to descend at target speed at a further reduced power setting. At target speed but still not in position vertically, I wait for timing to turn base and give 1st notch flaps.

So you're 200' below pattern altitude abeam the numbers? If it's a standard 1000' AGL, you're at 800'. That's published pattern at some fields.

When I fly night VFR I plan for a slightly longer approach leg (I'm a big fan of very tight patterns during the day). A longer approach gives you time and space to get configured on the PAPI/VASI.

 

[nddons]

When doing a circle to land after an instrument approach, you are already down to (usually) 600' AGL. You also usually have approach flaps in at that point - 10 degrees in a Skyhawk. So in a circling approach, you need to adjust your "typical" approach for your low altitude and configuration.

In a non-slippery 172, I reduce power to 1500 rpm a little later than the normal point abeam the numbers, and skip 20 degrees of flaps on the base leg. Then on final, I usually put in all the flaps when landing is assured, which slows me down enough that I'm right on speed on final.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Maybe I missed something, but the way I read it I have to ask - Why were you spending so much time and effort trying to figure out the wind aloft with the GPS when (as you discovered when you flew through the shear) they had nothing to do with the wind on the ground. Sounds like that distraction is where you got off track in the first place.....then fell in to the trap as Jesse described trying to fix it.

 

[brcase]

+1 for what Jesse and Dan said.
You didn't say what the winds were but if you had a tailwind it makes it even more likely you will pull back because the turn will look strange to you as your ground speed increases on your turn to final.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[EppyGA]

WRONG. The bank angle is NOT what caused you to nearly stall. You nearly stalled because you were AFRAID of banking more and instead of banking more you PULLED. The pull increased your AoA and nearly killed you.

This is something that IS NOT COVERED WELL by many instructors. Had you just banked more steeply, and just let the nose fall, you would have fixed rolled out onto final without an issue. If you didn't have the altitude to make this turn (which requires very little) you had already seriously screwed up and need to learn to fly the pattern instead of doing a rote routine and hoping it works.

Exceeding the critical angle of attack is what kills you. Banking and letting the nose fall does not increase the angle of attack. Banking and then pulling to tighten the turn does.

This is probably the most valuable thing I learned by watching my dad crop dust as a kid.

Let me make this simple. This is how you die:
- You realize you are going to overshoot final. You realize you're banked 30 degrees. OMG you can't bank more or you'll die (someone silly told you).
- So you want to tighten your turn. You pull some power, you cheat with a skid on the rudder, and you pull on the yoke to tighten it up
- The above action causes you to exceed your critical AoA and you go into a spin from your skid and die.

You will not die if you:
-Watch the runway as you're turning final. Bank to roll out on a perfect final. Perfect this. Become the master of it. If you need more bank, do it, but STAY COORDINATED and DON'T PULL. You're not a robot. The pattern is very dynamic. You need to make the airplane go where you want it to go. That means you don't just turn to defined angles and cross your fingers like most pilots do.

His CFI may have been like mine. If I banked more than 20 degrees on my pattern turns he would have a heart attack.

What I liked about training out of a "D" was the necessity to have to adjust almost every time we came back since you were never sure what you would get as instructions from the controller. It helped quite a bit in understanding that it's all about being able to adjust on the fly.

Great advise Jesse.

 

[denverpilot]

I'm going to throw a different twist into my reply. Jesse has covered the aerodynamics, and how you *could* have fixed it... but I'm going to go another direction.

You shouldn't have tried to fix it.

My passenger and I arrived at the airport later than I liked after dusk. I'm a night legal Private Pilot, so it was not an issue. Visibility was better than forecast, but it took some time to find better prevailing winds to make better groundspeed.

Night "legal" or night "current"? You had a passenger, so you needed night currency. Okay... just reading along while you set the stage here...

It has been awhile since my last night cross country and this trip was my first to the Class-D airport. The tower controller was helpful in adjusting the lighting to help distinguish my cleared runway from the many other surrounding lights and another nearby Class-D.

So if the first destination was dark, you're well into nighttime back home... which is next in the story...

The return trip was just as uneventful, except knowing that home base may be challenging to find in night ground clutter, I task my passenger with helping to locate the field while I divert a little attention to GPS groundspeed vs. airspeed to help determine wind direction for landing. Radio chatter at a nearby Class-B is issuing instrument approach clearances to the south, but groundspeed indicates that my landing should be northbound. My passenger spots a landmark that I know well and I trace my eyes from there to locate home.

No windsock? And I assume no ATIS/AWOS... ?

I attempt a straight-in approach to the north runway from 500' above pattern altitude and quickly realized that it's not going to work. A sidestep puts me on downwind for south landing 200' below pattern. Groundspeed confirms that I passed through a shear layer.

Here's the critical thinking mistake... in my humble opinion... at night, a go-around is a COMPLETE go-around... full throttle, back to pattern altitude, climb straight out... until then you don't fart with making a different runway, or turning a low-approach into a downwind or any of that. The aborted straight-in could have been safer if it was straight down the runway, standard go-around procedures like you've practiced a million times, and climb out. Or in your case, descend to pattern altitude and get where you really wanted to be.

Plus, you'd get a look at the windsock perhaps while going over? Why all this reference to the GPS? There's a bunch of us who land airplanes at night with no GPS on board at all... ya know?

And how did you go from 500' above pattern to 200' below if you'd already decided it "wasn't going to work"?

I raised the nose to attempt to get back to pattern altitude but didn't apply power as I'm now abeam the numbers. Stupidity is getting the better of me for not reconfiguring properly as I fight the aircraft to descend at target speed at a further reduced power setting. At target speed but still not in position vertically, I wait for timing to turn base and give 1st notch flaps.

If you're hitting this point where you're horsing the airplane around trying to get it "back on an arbitrary profile" in the pattern... and you don't feel comfortable with what's going on, it's time to go-around. Especially at night.

I turn base and apply 2nd notch of flaps without reference to any instrumentation. My eyes are glued to the runway for over-concern of losing position and orientation.

As the feeling that you're capable of "losing position and orientation" hit you, shouldn't this have been another opportunity to "knock it off" and go-around? Fly straight, wings level, power up... let's go set this up correctly and do this over again... I doubt there was anyone in the pattern with you, you could have done this straight out of the base leg if you had to...

People get way to fixated on "salvaging" total dog's barf maneuvering in the pattern. "Fixing" it isn't figuring out how to "salvage" the landing, it's in realizing the situation is not what you want to be doing as a pilot, and climbing back up to start over... you were behind from right at the 500' high point clear over on the other side of the airport, and you've missed three go-around mental triggers, at night. Not good.

In retrospect, my base-final turn was greater than 30 degrees. The stall warning horn caused me to pay attention to stupidity. Airspeed was near bottom of green arc, but it was bank angle that nearly caused an accident. At the warning horn, I immediately arrested the pull, silencing the horn, but failed to reduce bank angle. I really could have made the situation worse as the engine gave a little protest from a ham-fisted request for power.

Jesse covered the basics here, better than I. Steep banks are fine, you just have to be willing to lose a lot of altitude and don't pull. I think the Private syllabus should include more emphasis on steep turns in descents, and transitions from descent, to level, to... (well, if your aircraft can do it), climbs in steep turns.

You really have to get a feel in the butt for how fast energy and airspeed bleed off if you pull in a descending steep turn. If you're rusty and/or haven't ever done that... why are you attempting it low and slow at an airport at night? Again... mental triggers... "I don't normally do this..." is a HUGE one... go-around.

After I salvaged the base-final situation, the remainder of the landing and rollout went well, saving a little pride and our lives.

Uhh... okay. We've all fallen into the "all's well that ends well" trap. The let-down from the adrenaline will also make you think everything was great at the end with the "perfect" landing... but there should have been a go-around in this chain.

I was too low at base-final caused by the original mistake of being 200' below pattern when abeam. I also never referenced the PAPI for the south approach.

The original mistake was not setting up for a reasonable pattern after the first aborted attempt, IMHO. Maybe you "salvage" that part, but once you got to the base turn and were low, slow, feeling serious pressure to stare at the runway to avoid disorientation, etc... it was definitely time to go around.

I'm thankful for the genteel nature of the airplane I was flying. Anything else may have bitten me and I wouldn't have been able to post this.

Many of us have been appreciative of the docile handling characteristics of our airplanes over the years, for just that reason.


My new song for you... to the William Tell Overture:

Go around, go around, go arou-how-hound...
Go around, go around, go arou-how-hound...
Go around, go around, go arou-how-hound...
Go arouuuuuuuund, go around, 'round, 'round!



(Now you'll have a silly song in your head the next time this happens telling you to go around!)

 

[brcase]

+1 for what Jesse and Dan said.
You didn't say what the winds were but if you had a tailwind it makes it even more likely you will pull back because the turn will look strange to you as your ground speed increases on your turn to final.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[jnmeade]

Yeah, I think taking another stab at the approach would have worked out well. Get back in the pattern and get your landing routine back in sync. Trying to salvage something when you're a little nervous anyway probably tends toward trouble. Just go around and do her again and you'd be fine. Don't worry about the passenger.

 

[spiderweb]

I have a couple of thoughts to share with you (or disregard, as desired):

1) As others have noted, I'm inferring that your approach to flying the pattern is a bit rote. While staying at TPA, you might consider changing things up a bit, for practice. Try, for example, extending your downwind, or going power-off abeam the numbers, or flying a tighter pattern. Whatever--just mix it up. If you fly in RADAR environments, esp. Class B, this will be a BASIC requirement.

2) Jessie's point is very important. It's all AOA. Bank angle is only "dangerous" if you pull back (and don't compensate with power application). If you had an AOA indicator, you could experiment with this--but do it at a safe altitude, and have a CFI on board.

I did spin training in an aerobatic aircraft and it is exhilarating and fun. It also makes you feel safer, because you face an unknown. You learn the many ways you can enter stalls and spins.

 

[dmspilot]

I raised the nose to attempt to get back to pattern altitude but didn't apply power as I'm now abeam the numbers. Stupidity is getting the better of me for not reconfiguring properly as I fight the aircraft to descend at target speed at a further reduced power setting. At target speed but still not in position vertically, I wait for timing to turn base and give 1st notch flaps.

I turn base and apply 2nd notch of flaps without reference to any instrumentation. My eyes are glued to the runway for over-concern of losing position and orientation.

In retrospect, my base-final turn was greater than 30 degrees. The stall warning horn caused me to pay attention to stupidity. Airspeed was near bottom of green arc, but it was bank angle that nearly caused an accident. At the warning horn, I immediately arrested the pull, silencing the horn, but failed to reduce bank angle.

Don't really understand the bolded part. What part of the airplane did you not reconfigure properly? What of the airplane were you fighting? What do you mean that you use "timing" to turn base to final? How were you not in position vertically, were you high or low? Why didn't you adjust your power?

From the vagueness of your story it sounds you still don't really know what was going on. I agree that steep banks don't kill people. An inability to control the airplane properly does.

 

[Kiloalphadriver]

I would highly recommend you find a competent instructor, explain what happened, and "re-live" that night step by step.

I hate to say this, but your original CFI really let you down.

Ground yourself until you can get this straightened out. Your problems are not just night specific.

 

[Witmo]

I vote for going around if it doesn't look right. Rolling into more bank low to the ground sounds like a recipe for developing a horrendous sink rate. You may not stall/spin but landing short of the runway can get expensive. At night your visual cues are fewer and warrant a more conservative approach.

 

[jesse]

I would highly recommend you find a competent instructor, explain what happened, and "re-live" that night step by step.

I hate to say this, but your original CFI really let you down.

Ground yourself until you can get this straightened out. Your problems are not just night specific.

If he came to me -- I'd cover up his attitude indicator, DG, airspeed indicator, and altimeter...and we'd master the pattern just like that.

 

[jason]

If he came to me -- I'd cover up his attitude indicator, DG, airspeed indicator, and altimeter...and we'd master the pattern just like that.

You mean like this?

 

[spiderweb]

If he came to me -- I'd cover up his attitude indicator, DG, airspeed indicator, and altimeter...and we'd master the pattern just like that.

But if you do that, the plane won't fly!!!

 

[RJM62]

Some landings aren't worth salvaging.

 

[Kiloalphadriver]

If he came to me -- I'd cover up his attitude indicator, DG, airspeed indicator, and altimeter...and we'd master the pattern just like that.

Yeah, me too. A sectional makes a great panel coverer in a pinch..lol

 

[TMetzinger]

Some landings aren't worth salvaging.

I'll go so far as to say that most landings aren't worth salvaging.

As instructors, we always tell our students to "go around if it isn't right", but how often do we use our own "superior skills" to salvage a sloppy approach? What sort of example does that set? This came up in our CFI workshop last night and generated some interesting discussions... When you're running behind, you don't want to be late for your next student, and your current student is not getting the approach correct, do you say "I've got it" and fix it? Or do you tell him to go around and maybe coach him more intensely next time?

Based on the (admittedly small) number of flight reviews I've done, there's a tendency for "experienced" pilots to:
Fly too fast on the pattern, approach and landing
Try to hard to fix an approach that's "out of bounds" or getting that way.
Not keep flying the airplane all the way through the rollout.

 

[dell30rb]

The only time I've been surprised by a base/final stall horn was my first experience flying in rather rough air. Got a big hit of turbulence accompanied by a nice honk of the horn. No danger there.

Glad you ain't dead. What others have said about practicing with no cockpit references is good advice. However fatigue, preoccupation and whatever else could still cause you to eat it one day. Be vigilant at night and opt for a nice straight in approach with glide slope guidance unless it's good weather and you are feeling on your a game.


In addition to practicing no cockpit references night approaches, also practice with full instruments and an ils glide slope or vasi. Good tools to have in the box, even if you don't intend to get your instrument rating.

 

[Irish_Armada]

- So you want to tighten your turn. You pull some power, you cheat with a skid on the rudder, and you pull on the yoke to tighten it up

To clarify, a skid would be stepping harder than coordinated on the left rudder pedal while in a left bank (or vice versa), correct? Thanks...

 

[jason]

To clarify, a skid would be stepping harder than coordinated on the left rudder pedal while in a left bank (or vice versa), correct? Thanks...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skid_(aerodynamic)

 

[DavidWhite]

You mean like this?

I'm having flashbacks.....the horror.....THE HORROR!!!!!

:wink2:

 

[JimNtexas]

Jesse is correct, but let me add that you can't spin out of a coordinated turn. So when maneuvering at low altitude, especially at night

Keep the nose down and WATCH THE BALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As long as the ball is centered you won't spin.

Don't be scared of the bank angle. Be scared of that ball being out of its cage!!!!!

 

[denverpilot]

If he came to me -- I'd cover up his attitude indicator, DG, airspeed indicator, and altimeter...and we'd master the pattern just like that.

My Primary instructor threw his jacket over the entire panel.

"You play too much Flight Sim don't you, Nathan!" (I did back then...)

Or something like that.

"Now fly the plane. Are you fast or slow? How can you tell? On altitude or climbing/descending?" Etc.

Now I'm learning the opposite... staring at instruments for hours... Only to have Jesse cover 'em up again. Ha.

Ironic isn't it?

 

[Geico266]

Maybe I missed something, but the way I read it I have to ask - Why were you spending so much time and effort trying to figure out the wind aloft with the GPS when (as you discovered when you flew through the shear) they had nothing to do with the wind on the ground. Sounds like that distraction is where you got off track in the first place.....then fell in to the trap as Jesse described trying to fix it.

+1

I agree 110%.

 

[azure]

Keep the nose down and WATCH THE BALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Coordinated is good, but it's better to learn how it feels than to stare at the TC in the pattern.

As long as the ball is centered you won't spin.

But you can still stall -- also not a good thing at low altitude. Best to not pull on the yoke, and listen to your butt.

 

[dmccormack]

Jesse is correct, but let me add that you can't spin out of a coordinated turn. So when maneuvering at low altitude, especially at night

Keep the nose down and WATCH THE BALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As long as the ball is centered you won't spin.

Don't be scared of the bank angle. Be scared of that ball being out of its cage!!!!!

Better advice would be "Don't stall."

Can't spin unless you stall.

 

[mikea]

...My new song for you... to the William Tell Overture:

Go around, go around, go arou-how-hound...
Go around, go around, go arou-how-hound...
Go around, go around, go arou-how-hound...
Go arouuuuuuuund, go around, 'round, 'round!



(Now you'll have a silly song in your head the next time this happens telling you to go around!)

I've gone around lotsa times. If that wascalwy wunway isn't where it's supposed to be I go over and come back.

The amazing thing is every time, the second time around everything lines up better and the runway stays where it's supposed to be.

 

[Kiloalphadriver]

If someone is having trouble turning final on centerline, it's because their instructor didn't spend enough time on ground reference maneuvers.

Find a couple of roads out in the practice area and use them as simulated runways. Approach the roads for headwind, tailwind, and crosswind on the base leg and demonstrate the different bank angles required vs ground speed during the turn to final to maintain a constant radius turn.

For instance, a tailwind on left base (left crosswind on final) requires the steepest bank initially (highest ground speed) with it gradually reducing as the tailwind component decreases to maintain radius.

And, this is just limited to base-to-final. Same goes for downwind to base.

(You know those little traffic patterns drawn in the books? Well, that what yours should look like, too!)

Instructing isn't about a band-aid fix for a problem, it's about not letting it get broken in the first place.

 

[Kiloalphadriver]

And to take it one step further, if you have a tailwind on base, rolling out on final with the nose pointed down the runway won't work, either. The turn needs to continue past the centerline for the "crab". Otherwise, you're fighting to re-align all the way to the end on the runway as the crosswind blows you off centerline. Why not anticipate this and put the crab in while turning final?

A head wind on base (right crosswind on final) requires the shallowest bank at first (slowest GS) increasing as the ground speed increases. And, of course rolling out wings level before the centerline for the crab to the right.

 

[JimNtexas]

Better advice would be "Don't stall."

Can't spin unless you stall.

That's certainly true, but if you are skidding your stall speed goes way up and you'll get a really violent roll when you do stall.

I wouldn't suggest 'staring' at any one thing, but the ball is to me the most important instrument to scan turning base-to-final.

There's another thread today on a recent base to final fatal accident in Melbourne Florida that sounds like a stall/spin accident. Very tragic.

 

[Jaybird180]

I'm still working on getting the feel for the ball without looking. My primary CFI told me flat out that he didn't teach ground reference maneuvers (nevermind that I was 141).

I also have my share of pattern issues from time to time.

I can relate to the OP regarding speed/altitude/configuration. When I was doing checkout in the Skylane the CFI was trying to get me to use pitch for altitude and power for speed instead of the way I learned it. It only confused my muscle memory of aircraft control.

 

[Tracey]

WRONG. The bank angle is NOT what caused you to nearly stall. You nearly stalled because you were AFRAID of banking more and instead of banking more you PULLED. The pull increased your AoA and nearly killed you.

This is something that IS NOT COVERED WELL by many instructors. Had you just banked more steeply, and just let the nose fall, you would have fixed rolled out onto final without an issue. If you didn't have the altitude to make this turn (which requires very little) you had already seriously screwed up and need to learn to fly the pattern instead of doing a rote routine and hoping it works.

Exceeding the critical angle of attack is what kills you. Banking and letting the nose fall does not increase the angle of attack. Banking and then pulling to tighten the turn does.

This is probably the most valuable thing I learned by watching my dad crop dust as a kid.

Let me make this simple. This is how you die:
- You realize you are going to overshoot final. You realize you're banked 30 degrees. OMG you can't bank more or you'll die (someone silly told you).
- So you want to tighten your turn. You pull some power, you cheat with a skid on the rudder, and you pull on the yoke to tighten it up
- The above action causes you to exceed your critical AoA and you go into a spin from your skid and die.

You will not die if you:
-Watch the runway as you're turning final. Bank to roll out on a perfect final. Perfect this. Become the master of it. If you need more bank, do it, but STAY COORDINATED and DON'T PULL. You're not a robot. The pattern is very dynamic. You need to make the airplane go where you want it to go. That means you don't just turn to defined angles and cross your fingers like most pilots do.

Jesse, thanks for this. This is great information and as a student I really appreciate the time you took to type it out.

 

[Jaybird180]

WRONG. The bank angle is NOT what caused you to nearly stall. You nearly stalled because you were AFRAID of banking more and instead of banking more you PULLED. The pull increased your AoA and nearly killed you.

This is something that IS NOT COVERED WELL by many instructors. Had you just banked more steeply, and just let the nose fall, you would have fixed rolled out onto final without an issue. If you didn't have the altitude to make this turn (which requires very little) you had already seriously screwed up and need to learn to fly the pattern instead of doing a rote routine and hoping it works.

Exceeding the critical angle of attack is what kills you. Banking and letting the nose fall does not increase the angle of attack. Banking and then pulling to tighten the turn does.

This is probably the most valuable thing I learned by watching my dad crop dust as a kid.

Let me make this simple. This is how you die:
- You realize you are going to overshoot final. You realize you're banked 30 degrees. OMG you can't bank more or you'll die (someone silly told you).
- So you want to tighten your turn. You pull some power, you cheat with a skid on the rudder, and you pull on the yoke to tighten it up
- The above action causes you to exceed your critical AoA and you go into a spin from your skid and die.

You will not die if you:
-Watch the runway as you're turning final. Bank to roll out on a perfect final. Perfect this. Become the master of it. If you need more bank, do it, but STAY COORDINATED and DON'T PULL. You're not a robot. The pattern is very dynamic. You need to make the airplane go where you want it to go. That means you don't just turn to defined angles and cross your fingers like most pilots do.

Jesse, this rubs me wrong a bit. Doesn't stall speed increase with bank angle? What are you saying here? I didn't get from the OP anything about an attempted skid.

 

[jesse]

Jesse, this rubs me wrong a bit. Doesn't stall speed increase with bank angle? What are you saying here? I didn't get from the OP anything about an attempted skid.

Only if you pull and attempt to maintain altitude. Let the nose fall and it won't increase the AoA. The problem is that the OP pulled for fear of banking more. It'd have been by far safer to just bank more while staying coordinated and not pulling more on the yoke.

 

[Tracey]

Only if you pull and attempt to maintain altitude. Let the nose fall and it won't increase the AoA. The problem is that the OP pulled for fear of banking more. It'd have been by far safer to just bank more while staying coordinated and not pulling more on the yoke.

I get this in theory, but I can see reacting and pulling up... This is probably why it needs to be "muscle memory," so a non-thinking reaction doesn't happen. This is part of what scares me about flying, some things that seem like a natural quick reaction can kill you.

 

[jesse]

I get this in theory, but I can see reacting and pulling up... This is probably why it needs to be "muscle memory," so a non-thinking reaction doesn't happen. This is part of what scares me about flying, some things that seem like a natural quick reaction can kill you.

The pull is what happens if you limit your bank. It's a subconscious effort to complete the turn with limited bank. These things are best learned by really learning what your airplane does, with altitude, go ahead...just play...banking and yanking around the sky is the most fun you can have as a student. Give yourself some spare altitude and it's all good.

I try to end every primary lesson in the practice area by telling the student to just screw around and look at things. Thats exactly what they'll do post private-might as well watch and see the mistakes they'll make when they're not flying the PTS so I can fix them.

 

[Tracey]

The pull is what happens if you limit your bank. It's a subconscious effort to complete the turn with limited bank. These things are best learned by really learning what your airplane does, with altitude, go ahead...just play...banking and yanking around the sky is the most fun you can have as a student. Give yourself some spare altitude and it's all good.

I try to end every primary lesson in the practice area by telling the student to just screw around and look at things. Thats exactly what they'll do post private-might as well watch and see the mistakes they'll make when they're not flying the PTS so I can fix them.

I've had instructors say ,"just play..." But I think I need to be more aggressive to really get the feel of the plane, I am usually far too timid.