An Almost Base-Final Turn Accident

jesse said:
To sum this up -- if you do have the altitude to spare, steepening the bank will help...
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FIFY
...and if you fly by looking out the window versus a rote procedure you won't fall into this trap in the first place.
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That I like. I'd also like to promote the idea that unless there is conflicting traffic for a parallel runway, overshooting is best dealt with by letting the overshoot occur and if you can't get back to the centerline without pulling more g than a normal 30° bank requires or letting the nose drop then it's time to practice your go-around skills. I suspect that many base to final accidents involve the pilot attempting to cover up his first mistake by making another more serious one.
 
jesse said:
If the OP had looked out the window and flew the airplane he would have never had the problem in the first place.
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As a tow pilot, I fly one of the most agressive patterns if not the most aggressive pattern at my home field. I need to get on the ground fast and hooked up and gone so we don't clog up operations. People come to watch the airshow I put on dropping the rope precisely on the side of the threshold with full flaps hanging and a maximum forward slip and greasing it onto the first brick of the runway. Many of the pilots I watch fly bomber patterns and need to because they can't fly a square pattern with any kind of wind and it requires a huge pattern for them to get lined up. I agree that many pilots should learn how to max perform their airplane for those times they need to but having said this, when I fly at night, I don't yank and bank anywhere near what I'd feel comfortable doing during the day. I'm not ashamed to admit that if 30 degrees of bank on the turn to final at around 300' AGL at night doesn't hack it, I've screwed up and will go around. The same situation during the day and I wouldn't even bat an eyelid and hit the numbers every time. Maybe y'all fly at airfields that are lit up like Times Square on New Years, but at my field at night, all you see are two lines of dim lights suspended in a huge black hole of nothingness. Steepening a bank at night to correct an overshoot while staring out into a black hole which does little to warn you of an increased sink rate makes an unhealthy outcome much more likely. It's really easy to find yourself in an unusual attitude at night staring outside the cockpit when there aren't many visual cues visible. In F-111s we generally had to fly a precision approach if it was available to a full stop landing at night. We practiced non-precision approaches all the time but the actual landing needed to be out of a precision approach if available at night. I learned that being conservative at night led to good outcomes in the long run.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Here we have an opportunity from a guy who confesses after a scare and what happens here:

People trash his CFI
Trash his basic skills
Argue theory as though they were in the cockpit with him

I see very little offered to this guy in the way of encouragement. For all we know he could be the next aviation walk-away with the seed of the next Bob Hoover with proper encouragement, training and time.

Shame. Sorry I don't have more answers at this time.
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Seems to me like you're just getting awful defensive with regards to people's comments about the anonymous poster. I don't see anything negative here, this is good discussion, and if you can't handle that...That's too bad. I hope the OP is smarter.
 
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gismo said:
FIFY
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It doesn't take much. If you don't have that altitude you're about to be putting your wheels into the trees. If that is your current situation, this entire discussion is irrelevant. Out of scope.

gismo said:
That I like. I'd also like to promote the idea that unless there is conflicting traffic for a parallel runway, overshooting is best dealt with by letting the overshoot occur and if you can't get back to the centerline without pulling more g than a normal 30° bank requires or letting the nose drop then it's time to practice your go-around skills. I suspect that many base to final accidents involve the pilot attempting to cover up his first mistake by making another more serious one.
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To a degree. I see some pretty terrible pilots during flight reviews that have read in some magazine that going around is always the best option and is ok. As a result they've justified their terrible piloting skills and do more go arounds then touch and goes.

If you're in over your head - you need to go around. If you find yourself in over your head very often you need to improve your skills. It's a tough line trying to decide where some people fall and how to best explain that.
 
Witmo said:
As a tow pilot, I fly one of the most agressive patterns if not the most aggressive pattern at my home field. I need to get on the ground fast and hooked up and gone so we don't clog up operations. People come to watch the airshow I put on dropping the rope precisely on the side of the threshold with full flaps hanging and a maximum forward slip and greasing it onto the first brick of the runway. Many of the pilots I watch fly bomber patterns and need to because they can't fly a square pattern with any kind of wind and it requires a huge pattern for them to get lined up. I agree that many pilots should learn how to max perform their airplane for those times they need to but having said this, when I fly at night, I don't yank and bank anywhere near what I'd feel comfortable doing during the day.
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I fly it pretty tight when solo in the Chief, but at night I'm with you -- standard rate, checking altitude on the meter, and basically being conservative.
 
I overshot one base to final turn today. I fixed it and didn't die.

Do I get a cookie now? :)
 
I'm just still trying to wrap my head around using GPS to determine winds for landing, what happened to the age old practice of a wind sock? I think had he not been worrying about the GPS and then worrying about the TPA, he would have been good. His other problem is fear of over banking. I would suggest getting up and doing turns at 45 deg at different airspeeds. And that TPA is not set in stone, if your 200 feet low, work with that, don't worry about getting that back in the pattern.
 
Henning said:
It does, even in a 310 with a 25' 180kt pattern entry...;)
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gismo said:
Probably helps if you've got cropdusting experience, eh?
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Helps if you've had a lot of crop dusting experience.

But there again such a maneuver is ignorant, stupid and just outright dangerous with total disregard to safety.
 
Thanks to the OP for writing about this. After the "problem occured", the OP did not further agravate it but recovered and landed safetly.

Being a (still) pre-solo student pilot I would have probably done what I know best: go-around ;)
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Helps if you've had a lot of crop dusting experience.
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Ehhh, it's pretty repetitive, you don't learn much new in the way of flying after the first 50 hrs and normally you have 1000hrsPIC before you start working Ag. By that time you either have a feel for acceleration or not.
 
Henning said:
Ehhh, it's pretty repetitive, you don't learn much new in the way of flying after the first 50 hrs and normally you have 1000hrsPIC before you start working Ag. By that time you either have a feel for acceleration or not.
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I've dealt with Ag Pilots who are far more qualified than you, and they wouldn't advocate the amateurish and bravado attitude that you exhibit. :nono:
 
Rotor&Wing said:
I've dealt with Ag Pilots who are far more qualified than you, and they wouldn't advocate the amateurish and bravado attitude that you exhibit. :nono:
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No doubt that's true. Long time ago I decided that trading joy for safety wasn't a great a bargain.

I also bet that all those guys would agree with me when I say the greatest hazard to an Ag pilot is boredom.
 
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redtail said:
Nate how did you fix it? Did you steepen the bank and let the nose drop? What was your bank angle? Just curious
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If you increase bank angle without increasing AoA, the nose will drop and rate of descent will increase.

So, you're already in a descent for landing, you're slowing to approach speed, you over-shot final, and now you have increased the rate of descent??

This will put you below glide path if you were on it already. Steep bank, high rate of descent, and close to the ground. Hmmm

What's next??
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
If you increase bank angle without increasing AoA, the nose will drop and rate of descent will increase.

So, you're already in a descent for landing, you're slowing to approach speed, you over-shot final, and now you have increased the rate of descent??

This will put you below glide path if you were on it already. Steep bank, high rate of descent, and close to the ground. Hmmm

What's next??
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thanks but it's obvious that you haven't been following this thread. I'll wait for Nate's answer;)
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
If you increase bank angle without increasing AoA, the nose will drop and rate of descent will increase.

So, you're already in a descent for landing, you're slowing to approach speed, you over-shot final, and now you have increased the rate of descent??

This will put you below glide path if you were on it already. Steep bank, high rate of descent, and close to the ground. Hmmm

What's next??
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You're not going to run into the ground. You'll gain energy and then you can pull a bit and increase the AoA. Or you can just roll out. One needs to learn to handle the airplane, not be afraid of it.

The ground is the easiest to avoid when you're close to it with energy.
 
jesse said:
You're not going to run into the ground. You'll gain energy and then you can pull a bit and increase the AoA. Or you can just roll out. One needs to learn to handle the airplane, not be afraid of it.

The ground is the easiest to avoid when you're close to it with energy.
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Not only will your rate on descent increase, so will your A/S. This is a perfect set up for an accel-stall.

A major fallacy in flying is that you have to fix things a certain way. By gosh, you came here to land, and that's what you're going to do. If you over-shoot final and there's nothing on the other side of the runway to hit or conflict with, why in the world would you "rack it around" close to the ground just to save a landing?? Why bother teaching go arounds if they don't use them? Just go around and try it again. Save the crazy stuff for the test pilots.

Do you remember Air Florida Flight 90?? They were in trouble, so what did they do?? they turned (and stalled) to avoid restricted airspace.

I would have fried the engines and knocked the china off the walls in the WH.

Sorry, but with 13,000TT and 2400 dual given, we'll just have to disagree on this one.
 
jesse said:
You're not going to run into the ground. You'll gain energy and then you can pull a bit and increase the AoA. Or you can just roll out. One needs to learn to handle the airplane, not be afraid of it.

The ground is the easiest to avoid when you're close to it with energy.
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Thank you Jesse. The reason I asked about his bank angle is because I've never banked more than 30* in the pattern to save an overshoot. So I have no experience in that. I'm pretty good at judging my base to final turn but on the rare occasion I overshoot, what I usually do is continue the turn until I'm back on centerline and then turn the other way to line up. Maybe not the best way to handle it but I'm very aware of the danger of tightening the turn with bottom rudder. I'd rather just accept the overshoot and if need be, go around!
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
Not only will your rate on descent increase, so will your A/S. This is a perfect set up for an accel-stall.

A major fallacy in flying is that you have to fix things a certain way. By gosh, you came here to land, and that's what you're going to do. If you over-shoot final and there's nothing on the other side of the runway to hit or conflict with, why in the world would you "rack it around" close to the ground just to save a landing?? Why bother teaching go arounds if they don't use them? Just go around and try it again. Save the crazy stuff for the test pilots.

Do you remember Air Florida Flight 90?? They were in trouble, so what did they do?? they turned (and stalled) to avoid restricted airspace.

I would have fried the engines and knocked the china off the walls in the WH.

Sorry, but with 13,000TT and 2400 dual given, we'll just have to disagree on this one.
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Just because one doesn't have the stick skills to make an airplane go where it should go, doesn't mean that one should write off such efforts instead of learning how. Anything done wrong in aviation is dangerous.
 
redtail said:
Thank you Jesse. The reason I asked about his bank angle is because I've never banked more than 30* in the pattern to save an overshoot. So I have no experience in that. I'm pretty good at judging my base to final turn but on the rare occasion I overshoot, what I usually do is continue the turn until I'm back on centerline and then turn the other way to line up. Maybe not the best way to handle it but I'm very aware of the danger of tightening the turn with bottom rudder. I'd rather just accept the overshoot and if need be, go around!
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Understand. But you just need to understand where people hurt themselves and it's often not where people think. If one practices at safe altitudes in appropriate airplanes with banking, loaded turns, feeling what an accelerated stall is like right before it breaks, etc , it goes a long way.

There is nothing wrong with overshooting a bit then coming back if it's rare. If it's not rare then there is a bigger issue that needs to be corrected.

Just understand it's not the bank you need to be worried about. You can spin in from no degrees, 20 degrees, 30 degrees, or 60 degrees. It has to do with loading.
 
jesse said:
Understand. But you just need to understand where people hurt themselves and it's often not where people think. If one practices at safe altitudes in appropriate airplanes with banking, loaded turns, feeling what an accelerated stall is like right before it breaks, etc , it goes a long way.

There is nothing wrong with overshooting a bit then coming back if it's rare. If it's not rare then there is a bigger issue that needs to be corrected.

Just understand it's not the bank you need to be worried about. You can spin in from no degrees, 20 degrees, 30 degrees, or 60 degrees. It has to do with loading.
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I'm not worried about spinning, I'm worried about a low time pilot in a nose-down, steep bank, high rate of descent close to the ground thinking they have to make the landing.

What happens when they get their instrument rating and they're circling to land with ice on the plane and over-shoot final?? The wing may not load with your technique with the increase bank/no AoA, but at some time it will!!

Bad habits go a long way in flying. (Well, right up to impact, anyway)
 
jesse said:
Understand. But you just need to understand where people hurt themselves and it's often not where people think. If one practices at safe altitudes in appropriate airplanes with banking, loaded turns, feeling what an accelerated stall is like right before it breaks, etc , it goes a long way.

There is nothing wrong with overshooting a bit then coming back if it's rare. If it's not rare then there is a bigger issue that needs to be corrected.

Just understand it's not the bank you need to be worried about. You can spin in from no degrees, 20 degrees, 30 degrees, or 60 degrees. It has to do with loading.
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Which is why I'm really looking forward to taking a few aerobatic lessons this year. I think I'm at the point in my flying that I need to experience the range of the envelope. I've never experienced more than a 45* bank and power on/off stalls.
 
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All this talk about bank angles in the pattern... I have NO idea what mine typically are or what my max experience has been - guess I've just been too busy looking out the window and doing what needs to be done to achieve the desired result. :dunno:

redtail - go have a blast exploring the envelope! :yesnod:
 
JoeSelch said:
All this talk about bank angles in the pattern... I have NO idea what mine typically are or what my max experience has been - guess I've just been too busy looking out the window and doing what needs to be done to achieve the desired result. :dunno:

redtail - go have a blast exploring the envelope! :yesnod:
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thanks, I'm scheduled for my first flight next month. I'll be sure to report back my experience:). I fly the pattern same way as you, just never needed more than 30* :D
 
In the King Air under normal circumstances (most of the time unless traffic, vectors, etc caused me to alter) I made a continuous turn from downwind to final. Adjusting bank slightly to correct for track to intercept the extended centerline.

Nice and easy on the passengers..
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
In the King Air under normal circumstances (most of the time unless traffic, vectors, etc caused me to alter) I made a continuous turn from downwind to final. Adjusting bank slightly to correct for track to intercept the extended centerline.

Nice and easy on the passengers..
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This has become my normal practice.

I stick with square patterns for flight instruction as it teaches a more predictable approach and gives the student time to adjust.

But eventually I demonstrate the continuous turn and let them try it.
 
redtail said:
Which is why I'm really looking forward to taking a few aerobatic lessons this year. I think I'm at the point in my flying that I need to experience the range of the envelope. I've never experienced more than a 45* bank and power on/off stalls.
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Same here, and I have 300 hours. That's why I've set a goal of getting my commercial within the year - I want/need to experience a little more of the edge of the envelope.
 
May I suggest aerobatic gliders? The best airshow act was always Bob Hoover flying his Shrike as a glider. That is a mastery of energy management.
 
jesse said:
One needs to learn to handle the airplane, not be afraid of it.
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Exactly. I need to paste this on my forehead, I'm not doing myself any favors by being timid. I bet you're an excellent CFI, I think I need to be pushed a little bit. Although now that I know that, I can do it myself. I think.
 
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Tracey said:
Exactly. I need to paste this on my forehead, I'm not doing myself any favors by being timid. I bet you're an excellent CFI, I think I need to be pushed a little bit. Although now that I know that, I can do it myself. I think.
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That's also the formula for a successful completion of your checkride. Master the airplane, and don't let it master you, and you will give your examiner a good feeling about your ability to be pilot in command.
 
nddons said:
Master the airplane, and don't let it master you, and you will give your examiner a good feeling about your ability to be pilot in command.
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I think I'm actually getting there. I just seem to be doing it a heck of a lot slower than a lot of people. This just isn't the least bit instinctual for me. Maybe it's not for a lot of people, I don't know. I just know that with other things I've tried in my life, I've gotten it a lot faster than I've gotten this!

And thanks. And sorry to hijack some of this thread.
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
In the King Air under normal circumstances (most of the time unless traffic, vectors, etc caused me to alter) I made a continuous turn from downwind to final. Adjusting bank slightly to correct for track to intercept the extended centerline.

Nice and easy on the passengers..
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:yeahthat:
Airplanes were built to fly analog not digital... Round is better than square IMHO
 
FlySince9 said:
:yeahthat:
Airplanes were built to fly analog not digital... Round is better than square IMHO
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At least, they used to be built that way. Pretty much all modern aircraft with fly-by-wire/light have digital flight control systems. I think the last fly-by-wire aircraft with a computer flight control system using an an analog system was the F-111, which went operational in 1968. Likewise, all the modern avionics we use now are digital, not analog.
 
Tracey said:
I think I'm actually getting there. I just seem to be doing it a heck of a lot slower than a lot of people. This just isn't the least bit instinctual for me. Maybe it's not for a lot of people, I don't know. I just know that with other things I've tried in my life, I've gotten it a lot faster than I've gotten this!

And thanks. And sorry to hijack some of this thread.
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Are you saying you ride the short bus to the airport?
 
FlySince9 said:
:yeahthat:
Airplanes were built to fly analog not digital... Round is better than square IMHO
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Not quite, but close. Airplanes don't care, they are machines, the state of the art in machines are digital. Pilots on the other hand are the ones that do better analog. In that the ultimate analog is a direct 3D representation of your position and path through space as you would normally see it out the window. Digital allows the ultimate analog.
 
Henning said:
Not quite, but close. Airplanes don't care, they are machines, the state of the art in machines are digital. Pilots on the other hand are the ones that do better analog. In that the ultimate analog is a direct 3D representation of your position and path through space as you would normally see it out the window. Digital allows the ultimate analog.
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Digital may allow the "ultimate analog," but as you said, Pilots do better in analog. And since pilots are ultimately the ones that make the machine perform, and are, in fact, incapable of processing their analog world in digital...

...they should FLY "ROUND!" :D

P.S. I enjoyed your Slide Show... What a Beautiful Airplane!
 
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FlySince9 said:
Digital may allow the "ultimate analog," but as you said, Pilots do better in analog. And since pilots are ultimately the ones that make the machine perform, and are, in fact, incapable of processing their analog world in digital...

...they should FLY SVT :D

P.S. I enjoyed your Slide Show... What a Beautiful Airplane!
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FTFY...;)
 
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