American Airlines Bankrupt??

No 4th amendment issue. They tell you that you have been selected for special screening, you can decline and leave the secured area.

I recall stories around Thanksgiving last year (when the latest round of nonsense was initiated) that once you're in the security line, TSA can still do their thing even if you elect to refuse screening and not fly. I recall a fine being mentioned too. I don't know that anything ever came of that, though.

If I understand things correctly, the courts hold that 4th amendment protections do not apply because it's an `administrative' procedure, or something like that.
 
I recall stories around Thanksgiving last year (when the latest round of nonsense was initiated) that once you're in the security line, TSA can still do their thing even if you elect to refuse screening and not fly. I recall a fine being mentioned too. I don't know that anything ever came of that, though.

If I understand things correctly, the courts hold that 4th amendment protections do not apply because it's an `administrative' procedure, or something like that.

They say once you are past a certain point, you must be screened. Supposedly so that people could not make a "dry run" to observe procedures. I'm sure that people who are going to crash a plane while at the controls probably will go ahead and fly somewhere to avoid attention. Ya think???
 
I recall stories around Thanksgiving last year (when the latest round of nonsense was initiated) that once you're in the security line, TSA can still do their thing even if you elect to refuse screening and not fly. I recall a fine being mentioned too. I don't know that anything ever came of that, though.

This is off the TSA site:

If you refuse to be screened at any point during the screening process, the Security Officer will deny you entry beyond the screening area. You will not be able to fly.

Of course, if you make a scene and they have reason to believe that you carry a weapon, 2 pounds of cocaine or any other indication of criminal activity, they have the right to stop you. That has been established back in the 70s.

If I understand things correctly, the courts hold that 4th amendment protections do not apply because it's an `administrative' procedure, or something like that.

Again, this has been litigated and decided in the 70s. There are elements of a 'consent search' in the airport search and the courts have found that if you present to the airport to board a plane, a reasonable person has the expectation of being searched. Also, they have weighed the general publics interest not being 'skyjacked' to be higher than your right of not being searched when you board a plane:

In undertaking our calculation of the weight to be accorded to these three factors in the case at bar-public necessity, efficacy of the search, and degree of intrusion-we need not reiterate what was said in Moreno about the dangers posed by air piracy; suffice it to say that there is a judicially-recognized necessity to insure that the potential harms of air piracy are foiled. The search procedures have every indicia of being the most efficacious that could be used. The group being screened is limited to persons with the immediate intention of boarding aircraft. Metal detectors, visual inspection, and rare but potential physical searches appear to this court to provide as much efficiency to the process as it could have.


and this:

Determination of what is reasonable requires a weighing of the harm against the need. When the object of the search is simply the detection of past crime, probable cause to arrest is generally the appropriate test. . . . When the risk is the jeopardy to hundreds of human lives and millions of dollars of property inherent in the pirating or blowing up of a large airplane, the danger alone meets the test of reasonableness, so long as the search is conducted in good faith for the purpose of preventing hijacking or like damage and with reasonable scope and the passenger has been given advance notice of his liability to such a search so that he can avoid it by choosing not to travel by air.

U.S. vs. Skipwith

(also contained in the decision this in retrospect rather humorous argument: No one can gainsay that airport searches are annoying. Certainly all citizens look forward to the day when skyjackings and their sequels, airport search and security measures, cease. When the threat of air piracy disappears the standards of reasonableness which we here recognize will go with it. Until that time arrives, however, the portent for evil supplies the requisite Fourth Amendment reasonableness to justify the search of any person who presents himself at a boarding gate to enter an aircraft. )
 
I keep an entire sleeper cell in my anal cavity. Go fish, TSA.

I'll sing Moon River like Fletch. You using the whole fist, Doc?

Oh, and it's all about ball bearings.

And clean those windows, they're converted in filth and muck.
 
Moooooon rivvvvvvvverrrrr!!!
 
They say once you are past a certain point, you must be screened.

"They" are correct. Prior to screening, you may turn around, refuse screening, go home, and not fly.

Once screening has begun, it WILL continue until you are either cleared, or felt up, irradiated, arrested, shot, quartered, and hung out to dry.
 
I don't need luxury. I fly an airplane for the limo crowd but I certainly can't afford to be the one in back. I'm not sure I could justify the expense even if I could afford it.

It's one of the things we really like about you ma'am :rofl:. You're down to earth and reasonable.

Lord knows I don't need to shop at Sam's anymore, but I do because there are some things there that are good values. I do buy some things like socks other places though--have to admit the one-size-fits all size 4 to 22 just doesn't go well with me. Did you ever notice all the folks with socks that hang out over the back of their shoes :yikes:

Best,

Dave
 
Lord knows I don't need to shop at Sam's anymore, but I do because there are some things there that are good values. I do buy some things like socks other places though--have to admit the one-size-fits all size 4 to 22 just doesn't go well with me. Did you ever notice all the folks with socks that hang out over the back of their shoes :yikes:
I'll spend more for socks that fit too. :D

Actually I'm not that frugal but holy cow, if we start up and taxi out of the blocks on a retail charter you will pay more than it costs to get a private. Like someone in this thread or a similar one mentioned, charter is orders of magnitude more than an airline ticket. It's not going to be a substitute for airlines on a big scale any time soon.
 
Have you ever noticed the people whose feet hang out over the end of their socks?

It's one of the things we really like about you ma'am :rofl:. You're down to earth and reasonable.

Lord knows I don't need to shop at Sam's anymore, but I do because there are some things there that are good values. I do buy some things like socks other places though--have to admit the one-size-fits all size 4 to 22 just doesn't go well with me. Did you ever notice all the folks with socks that hang out over the back of their shoes :yikes:

Best,

Dave
 
Have you ever noticed the people whose feet hang out over the end of their socks?

Not having that problem, I guess I haven't. Standing in line at Disney last visit sure showed a cross section of tourists wearing all sorts of stuff. Ever noticed how folks in shorts have crotch lengths that are weird? Some are stuck so high up, one wonders how they don't get a rash in sensitive areas :rolleyes:. Others with knee crotches. The one size fits all syndrome strikes again!

Best,

Dave
 
And for some it's hard to tell if their shorts are a bit too long or their pants or a bit too short.

Not having that problem, I guess I haven't. Standing in line at Disney last visit sure showed a cross section of tourists wearing all sorts of stuff. Ever noticed how folks in shorts have crotch lengths that are weird? Some are stuck so high up, one wonders how they don't get a rash in sensitive areas :rolleyes:. Others with knee crotches. The one size fits all syndrome strikes again!

Best,

Dave
 
No 4th amendment issue. They tell you that you have been selected for special screening, you can decline and leave the secured area.

Not true. And they have a court case to back it up. Once you start the screening process, you cannot decide to stop. Even if they don't notify you that you will be nuked until you get past the point of no return.

Try to decline, and they will call the cops.

It would be most productive if you directed your anger at the politicians that brought us the TSA rather than at the individuals who took a goverment job with federal seniority and benefits.
Look at the BARR program. Political action by the GA caucus reversed a political decision made by the class warriors in the administration.

Not going to happen here. THe politicians are afraid that they will look "soft" on terrorism & it will be used against them. Most of the sheeple are in the dark and don't understand what the machines do. Not to mention the political contributions & the additional employment it offers.

In fact, most screeners that stand by the machines all day don't realize that they are being radiated with spillover radiation. They are prohibited from wearing dosimeters. Just wait until the cancer cases start showing up & the taxpayers are left on the hook.

They say once you are past a certain point, you must be screened. Supposedly so that people could not make a "dry run" to observe procedures. I'm sure that people who are going to crash a plane while at the controls probably will go ahead and fly somewhere to avoid attention. Ya think???

Yes, and that's been tested in court.

This is off the TSA site:

If you refuse to be screened at any point during the screening process, the Security Officer will deny you entry beyond the screening area. You will not be able to fly.

That is only a half-truth. The rest of the truth is that once you start screening it must be completed. Is it a surprise that the agency isn't truthful? They won't even allow the scanners to be tested by an independent third party. "Trust us".

If you search, you should find the court case that reaches that conclusion.

With the chat-down interrogations, they're going far beyond the physical search into mind reading. Wouldn't an oppressive leaders like that ability...

A couple of other notes:

1) traveling internationally, I find that the security screeners are almost always more polite & treat passengers better, where in the US, TSA likes to scream and yell at people. Most international security folks believe in "requesting" that people do what's required, TSA on the other hand expects to "take command and control" and demand that people do things. The tension at US security checkpoints is far, far higher solely because of this reason.

2) At a certain foreign airport, the TSA has browbeaten the country into installing a body scanner for a few gates that are most often used for US flights. This is well past the regular checkpoint. So everyone is obligated to go through the scanner (no "opt outs"), but there is no accompanying x-ray machine. One could easily divest any "threatening" object into their bag and it will never be found. This is the worst sort of security theater: it is absolutely, totally ineffective, but is done a the behest of the TSA to make people "feel" safe.
 
Not true. And they have a court case to back it up. Once you start the screening process, you cannot decide to stop. Even if they don't notify you that you will be nuked until you get past the point of no return.

What has been tested is that if you fulfill the profile of a 'skyjacker' (in the case at hand travelling with an ID that didn't match the ticket) or they have already found the cocaine in your bag, you can't opt out of the screening or use 4th amendment to quash the evidence afterwards.

Any newer cases that deal with the TSA you can cite. The person I asked to do that at the time couldn't find any.

My experience travelling internationally does not match yours btw.
 
If you're there to catch a flight I don't know why you would suddenly decide to back out of screening. Did you just remember you left your stove on at home?

I just went through the TSA checkpoint in Denver. It took about 5 minutes. The two agents who spoke to me, one directing the line and the other checking my license, were friendly.
 
2) At a certain foreign airport, the TSA has browbeaten the country into installing a body scanner for a few gates that are most often used for US flights. This is well past the regular checkpoint. So everyone is obligated to go through the scanner (no "opt outs"), but there is no accompanying x-ray machine. One could easily divest any "threatening" object into their bag and it will never be found. This is the worst sort of security theater: it is absolutely, totally ineffective, but is done a the behest of the TSA to make people "feel" safe.


Where?
What type of scanner? The EU banned the xray backscatter machines.
 
I just went through the TSA checkpoint in Denver. It took about 5 minutes. The two agents who spoke to me, one directing the line and the other checking my license, were friendly.

Which matches my experience 9/10 times.

I dont care whether they are friendly, they are not trying to sell me anything. I care whether they are professional and whether they are able to catch the next underwear bomber. Unfortunately, the best tool to detect that threat is not in the arsenal of the TSA.
 
The last half-dozen times I've gone through TSA security in Richmond, VA, I have been directed through the scanner every single time. Every time I said no. The last time was the worst: the agent yanked the waistband of my pants so hard I almost fell over. She pulled the hem of my pants so hard she almost pulled my pants down. She pulled my hair. She groped my boobs so hard it hurt. I think she was checking to see if they are real or not. But the whole thing was unpleasant and unnecessary. It certainly didn't help that it was 6:30 in the morning and a very rude way to greet the day. I should have complained. If that crap happens again, I will.
 
Richmond is odd.. They make up their own rules. They used to make us take our ID's off because they said they had to "manually" inspect them.
 
If you're there to catch a flight I don't know why you would suddenly decide to back out of screening. Did you just remember you left your stove on at home?

I'm not disagreeing, but there are valid reasons; you just remember you left your cell phone somewhere; you forgot your ID/ticket; you get a very personal call while in a long line and don't want it public; the line is going to take a long time--think I'll get something to eat/drink come back etc. I shouldn't have to have a reason to change my mind, unless as has been said, I become privy to some actual screening. I've seen lines here at D/FW that were pretty long before one ever actually starts the screening process.

Best,

Dave
 
Then you go speak to a TSA agent and they'll deal with it accordingly.

Wigging out and running backwards in the Salmon line will only get you s private room.
 
What has been tested is that if you fulfill the profile of a 'skyjacker' (in the case at hand travelling with an ID that didn't match the ticket) or they have already found the cocaine in your bag, you can't opt out of the screening or use 4th amendment to quash the evidence afterwards.

Any newer cases that deal with the TSA you can cite. The person I asked to do that at the time couldn't find any.

US vs Aukai. http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2007/08/10/0410226.pdf

The pertinent part of the opinion:

The constitutionality of an airport screening search,
however, does not depend on consent, see Biswell, 406 U.S.
at 315, and requiring that a potential passenger be allowed to
revoke consent to an ongoing airport security search makes
little sense in a post-9/11 world.6 Such a rule would afford terror-ists7 multiple opportunities to attempt to penetrate airport security by “electing not to fly” on the cusp of detection until
a vulnerable portal is found. This rule would also allow terrorists
a low-cost method of detecting systematic vulnerabilities
in airport security, knowledge that could be extremely valuable
in planning future attacks. Likewise, given that consent
is not required, it makes little sense to predicate the reasonableness
of an administrative airport screening search on an
irrevocable implied consent theory. Rather, where an airport
screening search is otherwise reasonable and conducted pursuant
to statutory authority, 49 U.S.C. § 44901, all that is
required is the passenger’s election to attempt entry into the
secured area8 of an airport. See Biswell, 406 U.S. at 315; 49
C.F.R. § 1540.107. Under current TSA regulations and procedures,
that election occurs when a prospective passenger walks through the magnetometer or places items on the conveyor
belt of the x-ray machine.9 The record establishes that
Aukai elected to attempt entry into the posted secured area of
Honolulu International Airport when he walked through the
magnetometer, thereby subjecting himself to the airport
screening process.
[6] To the extent our cases have predicated the reasonableness
of an airport screening search upon either ongoing consent
or irrevocable implied consent, they are overruled.
ought
There's not much ambiguity there. Yes, the case was brought by someone who was found with cocaine at security, but the opinion is specific on the point that one cannot withdraw consent once screening starts.

My experience travelling internationally does not match yours btw.

I've been through dozens of US and international airports in the past few years, and I have yet to find a foreign airport that the security folks treat passengers as badly as the TSA does. YMMV.
 
US vs Aukai. http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2007/08/10/0410226.pdf
.
.
.
.
There's not much ambiguity there. Yes, the case was brought by someone who was found with cocaine at security, but the opinion is specific on the point that one cannot withdraw consent once screening starts.

And again, this was a passenger who fulfilled criteria for an increased risk (based on not carrying ID). He also tried to withdraw AFTER the wand search had alerted to an area and AFTER the screener felt an object in the passengers pocket. It is well established that at that point you cannot withdraw from a search.

The random strip searches have not been tested. As they dont fall under the “is no more extensive nor intensive than necessary, in the light of
current technology, to detect the presence of weapons or explosives [ ] [and] that it is confined in good faith to that purpose.”
(also see the post above about someone getting their boobs squezed that it hurts) justification there is ample room to challenge them. At the time I was told that I am 'too white', 'too male' and 'not religious enough' to make a good challenge (I also decided that my appetite to make new law through the courts had been satisified in some prior successful proceedings).

I've been through dozens of US and international airports in the past few years, and I have yet to find a foreign airport that the security folks treat passengers as badly as the TSA does. YMMV.
In my experience, the rudest screening staff outside of Philadelphia, PA is at the airport in Amsterdam. Frankfurt is friendly, but they also missed the knife I had in my carry-on, oops.
 
We had a passenger get on board with a loaded 9mm in his carry on.

He realized it mid-flight and had to determine the best way to alert the flight attendant without saying "I have a gun!!!"

He told the FA and let her retrieve the bag containing the weapon from the over head bin.
 
And again, this was a passenger who fulfilled criteria for an increased risk (based on not carrying ID). He also tried to withdraw AFTER the wand search had alerted to an area and AFTER the screener felt an object in the passengers pocket. It is well established that at that point you cannot withdraw from a search.

Regardless of the cause of the court decision, it is NOT limited to the circumstances you describe. It it a broad decision that encompasses any and all airport screening, regardless if a suspected object is found. To the best of my knowledge, there are no conflicting decisions or appeals.

The random strip searches have not been tested. As they dont fall under the “is no more extensive nor intensive than necessary, in the light of
current technology, to detect the presence of weapons or explosives [ ] [and] that it is confined in good faith to that purpose.”
(also see the post above about someone getting their boobs squezed that it hurts) justification there is ample room to challenge them. At the time I was told that I am 'too white', 'too male' and 'not religious enough' to make a good challenge (I also decided that my appetite to make new law through the courts had been satisified in some prior successful proceedings).

To the best of my knowledge, that is true. Although the courts threw out Jessie Ventura's case over venue (jurisdictional) issues. The law is written that any case challenging TSA authority must be made directly to a court of appeals, making it more difficult to pursue a case against TSA.
In my experience, the rudest screening staff outside of Philadelphia, PA is at the airport in Amsterdam. Frankfurt is friendly, but they also missed the knife I had in my carry-on, oops.

As many times as I've been through AMS, I've not had anything like the treatment TSA metes out. The scanners there are mandatory, but they're the MMW versions with automated recognition. Again YMMV, but my experience at AMS is far different from yours.

IST was challenging (in that one had to undergo 4 full security checks - one to enter airport, one to enter "secure" area, metal detector/x-ray @ gate, followed by full pat down and hand baggage check for everyone before boarding plane), but even IST was professional and treated folks with respect.
 
Quote from Branson in this week's press

Sir Richard Branson, the head of Virgin Group, said airlines could aim for switching to 50% renewable jet fuel by 2020. "Aviation fuel is 25-40% of the running costs of airlines so the industry is open to new fuels," he said. Virgin owns a majority stake in Virgin Atlantic Airways.

I believe I read that AA spends 52% of operating income on fuel...
 
We had a passenger get on board with a loaded 9mm in his carry on.

He realized it mid-flight and had to determine the best way to alert the flight attendant without saying "I have a gun!!!"

He told the FA and let her retrieve the bag containing the weapon from the over head bin.

Seriously? Wow.
 
Seriously? Wow.

The FAA is charged with testing airport security, pre and post TSA.

When the airlines were running the show, they were getting handguns through 25% of the time.

After the TSA took over, they were getting handguns through 25% of the time.

Thereafter, it was decided that the number is a matter of national security and they are restricted from releasing it.

Again, my objection to TSA is not that they exist, my objection is that they stink at their job.
 
: [rather large snip]
My reaction emotionally was both one of, "I remember when companies advertised that they actually did want to try harder than their competitors..." and some memories of the pride everyone who worked there felt back then. (Avis too... "We try harder.")

Your last line kindles some memories. The man who made the "We try harder" phrase a media household word came out of Boston. His name? In radio and TV commercials: "Tom Barry, here, for Avis Rent-a-Car, the we try harder people."
"Tom Barry" had one of those golden radio voices. I was a recording engineer at the studio which produced the commercials. "Tom's" real name was Irwin Ellison "Ellie" Dierdorff, but that wasn't a radio-type name, so Tom Barry was the stage name. (Oh, that was back in the late 60s - early 70s).

HR
 
The Boyd Group put out a pretty good analysis of the AA Bankruptcy.

http://www.aviationplanning.com/Images/AMR Bankruptcy - Time For Reality.pdf

Ahhh. Our local aviation expert pops up. Interesting niche that guy has.

Always wondered who his clients are. He does a lot of TV "let's talk to an expert" talking-head stuff. I assume that's a large part of his business.

Never liked that he doesn't cite his sources on the factual stuff, even if it's just an EDGAR link. No footnotes.

Other than that he usually has an interesting opinion at least.

It's fascinating to me that the ERJs were touted as the way to save airlines a decade ago with the exact same market pressures as today, and now they're the "millstone" around their necks.

I also get a kick out of him saying AA isn't "dropping non-profitable routes" and "they could do that anyway" and in the very next sentence saying they're dropping non-profitable aircraft. What do non-profitable aircraft fly, but non-profitable routes! The route and the aircraft that flies it are profitable or a money-loser together. Change the aircraft, the route becomes profitable again. Intertwined. Funny point of view unless he's saying AA will continue flying to all *destinations* they do today no matter the aircraft utilized. I think that's the underlying thing he's criticizing about the Bloomberg article and people outside of aviation see route as equal to destination. But if you ground all the small ERJs over time, if the loads for that destination and an aircraft suitable don't match, the destination will be pulled or service to that destination will be lowered by having one big flight per day vs a few smaller flights.

Fun stuff to read. Basically backs up the comment that they were due to do this. I still think they just waited for an opportunity to go forward with it at Union renegotiation time as a convenience for public sentiment. It's interesting how vehement the article is that there was zero effect from Unions.

Which leads me to ask: Who commissioned the analysis? Was it just done for fun? Advertising? Or did someone pay to release this?

Just questions...
 
Ahhh. Our local aviation expert pops up. Interesting niche that guy has.

Always wondered who his clients are. He does a lot of TV "let's talk to an expert" talking-head stuff. I assume that's a large part of his business.

Never liked that he doesn't cite his sources on the factual stuff, even if it's just an EDGAR link. No footnotes.

Other than that he usually has an interesting opinion at least.

It's fascinating to me that the ERJs were touted as the way to save airlines a decade ago with the exact same market pressures as today, and now they're the "millstone" around their necks.

I also get a kick out of him saying AA isn't "dropping non-profitable routes" and "they could do that anyway" and in the very next sentence saying they're dropping non-profitable aircraft. What do non-profitable aircraft fly, but non-profitable routes! The route and the aircraft that flies it are profitable or a money-loser together. Change the aircraft, the route becomes profitable again. Intertwined. Funny point of view unless he's saying AA will continue flying to all *destinations* they do today no matter the aircraft utilized. I think that's the underlying thing he's criticizing about the Bloomberg article and people outside of aviation see route as equal to destination. But if you ground all the small ERJs over time, if the loads for that destination and an aircraft suitable don't match, the destination will be pulled or service to that destination will be lowered by having one big flight per day vs a few smaller flights.

Fun stuff to read. Basically backs up the comment that they were due to do this. I still think they just waited for an opportunity to go forward with it at Union renegotiation time as a convenience for public sentiment. It's interesting how vehement the article is that there was zero effect from Unions.

Which leads me to ask: Who commissioned the analysis? Was it just done for fun? Advertising? Or did someone pay to release this?

Just questions...

What I find more interesting is the timing relative to the aircraft orders. By waiting until the aircraft orders were made, those agreements stay out of BK court, and by not dumping Eagle they can now dump the ERJs (personally, I prefer the ERJs to the 50 seat CRJs).

I also find it interesting that it is reported that Arpey considered BK "unethical" (reported by the NYT, who lauded him for that stand), and stepped down with no parachute and worthless stock. He's also reported to be joining an investment firm run by another airline CEO.

One other interesting report today: it is reported that the unions got 3 of the 9 seats on the BK creditors committee. That's highly unusual.
 
I'm guessing that AA will encounter very little opposition to their 11 filing from the flying public, if, like me, the potential passengers think there's a snowball's chance that the MD-80 fleet will go away.
 
It's fascinating to me that the ERJs were touted as the way to save airlines a decade ago with the exact same market pressures as today, and now they're the "millstone" around their necks.

You call a 600% increase in fuel prices "the exact same market pressures"?
 
You call a 600% increase in fuel prices "the exact same market pressures"?

From 2001? I don't remember Jet-A selling for less than $1/gal ten years ago. Hell 20 years ago.

What's this "600%" based on?
 
Fuel prices paid by airlines and many other contract users have never been tied to current retail pump prices. On one such contract I paid .67/gal for Jet A in 2001.

From 2001? I don't remember Jet-A selling for less than $1/gal ten years ago. Hell 20 years ago.

What's this "600%" based on?
 
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