Am I Too Cautious?

MBDiagMan

MBDiagMan

Final Approach
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May 8, 2011
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Mount Pleasant,Texas
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Doc
I was flying with my fiancée yesterday morning. She loves flying with me, but she doesn't like it when I don't go when or where she wants, even though I am just protecting us both.

We got off about 9:30 in the Mooney in which I have limited flight time, so I fly it cautiously. She wanted to go to a nearby airport cafe someone told her about. I am accustomed to 6,000x100 runway. Half of that is plenty of runway under good conditions. Problem was I had not had a chance to learn runway condition and such before I got in the air. The runway in question was 3000x50.

I found the airport okay. Got down to pattern altitude and the air got rough. I turned base and a few big birds got close and there were several more in sight toward the runway, although probably wouldn't be a problem. I was concerned about coming in high since the runway was so small. I didn't know the condition of the runway, the birds, the slightly rough air, never been there before and when I started decreasing power the engine didn't sound exactly right. Individually, none of these things would bother me much, but add them all up and factor in that there was no real need to land there I decided to go sightseeing elsewhere.

So was I being too cautious or exercising good judgment?
 
I feel it was poor judgement to take off without knowing more about the condition of the destination runway particularly if it was narrow and short.

I feel it was good judgement to not land.

I would not comment if you had not asked.

It reads to me like some time with a CFI might have value to help you get more comfortable with your aircraft.
 
The suggestion to go to this airport was not made until we were in the air. We originally took off for the purpose of flying around to sight see and bore a hole in the sky.
 
"I was concerned about coming in high since the runway was so small."

Isn't that the exact opposite of the normally experienced illusion? I thought if the runway is small, you think you are higher than you actually are so you stand the risk of coming in low to compensate for the false perception.
 
I don't think "too cautious" and "exercising good judgement" are necessarily separate. They are very closely related, until personal opinions are shared and exchanged. They are all in a continuum from not walking out of your house to being a kamikaze pilot. Which is right and why? There is no right answer. Your judgement, your skin, your loved one, your metal. My opinion? You used your brain. Good on you. Go fly.
 
Good judgment trying to take care of her and do things she wants/likes, and also letting her know that you weren't comfortable and are enough of a man to say no in order to take care of her.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Problem was I had not had a chance to learn runway condition and such before I got in the air.
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They don't have AWOS? Windsock? What do you mean by "condition"? Is it turf?
 
I don't know your experience level but you did not bend anything which is always the right decision.

And along the lines of what Skydog said, if you are used to a larger runway, coming into a smaller runway may have you thinking you are too high and delaying the flair might turn into a nose wheel first touch down, or turn into a float until there is not sufficient runway left to stop on. Along with the added distraction of bumpy air and the birds you did Ok.

Was it a paved runway or gravel or dirt?
 
No AWOS, but it was so close to my home field, I had no concerns about the weather. I did not know the condition of the pavement. Some small runways around here are a bit rough. Since getting back on the ground, I checked Foreflight and they indicated a paved runway in "fair" condition. If I would have checked runway condition first I would have probably not worried about that particular factor although I would be suspicious about what warrants it as Fair instead of Good.
 
Every pilot has their own minimums,if your going to change the plan while flying,you might want to pre flight the airports in the area.
 
Here's a video of what being to high coming into a 2500ft runway (KBID) looks like. This person was very lucky, you may not have been.

Departing with everything and everyone intact seems like a good move to me. (I hope you can get to this video...mods please fix if needed, very educational)

 
I quoted Frank Borman in another thread but it's also appropriate here.

"A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations which require the use of his superior skill."

You did fine. Every pilot has, or d*** sure should have personal limits. That day didn't meet the limits you set. As you gain experience, limits change but they never go away.

Cheers
 
There were times we were getting bounced around so good in training, I was afraid to try to land.

I remember once telling my instructor "We can just do a low approach and just land back at home if you think that's best".

I remember him looking incredulous and saying "What? No! We are landing here!"

I really appreciated that. For real maybe go back by yourself, or with an instructor, in similar conditions or worse.
 
I will get by there in the taildragger and check the place out. Without a multitude of things not exactly right I will have no trouble landing there. It was the fact that there were multiple things not ideal that kept me from landing. As I said any of these things by themselves would not have kept me from landing, but with a bunch of little things combined I just thought better of it.
 
Do what you're comfortable with. If it seemed like a bad idea at the time, then you did the right thing. You could've done a low approach and looked things over, but nothing was lost by heading somewhere else.
 
First, you and the airplane are intact and I damaged. You made the right call.

Now a little chastisement. If you're landing on speed and with the right energy 3k is plenty long for your Mooney. If it isn't time to get with a CFI and work on landings some more. I myself am going up with CFIs every chance I get. My landings could use work.

Where I am if an asphalt strip is in too poor condition to land the Mooney its in too poor condition to land anything, but I'm not where the OP is.
 
The very longest landing I ever made in the Mooney was significantly less than 3,000 feet. I HAD NO WORRY ABOUT THE RUNWAY BEING LONG ENOUGH. The size factored in because of the possible illusion. The Mooney is a low airplane. I dont like the idea of landing on a runway with any loose pavement chunks. I will land my high prop taildragger almost anywhere with no worries. It handles rough fields or gravel just fine.
 
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I have a mooney.

On 10,000 ft of runway, I can land in less than 2000. On 4000 feet of runway, I need the whole thing. It's weird.

I just come in too fast. And more often lately, I have much better speed control. But I guess I get excited by the new runway looking smaller. Also, my current airport (20GA) sits in the middle of a forest. At the approach ends of the runway, they've actually trimmed the trees at an angle. You descend toward the tops of trees and it looks like you get reeeeeeeealy close. I found myself going faster and wanting to carry more power.

One day I was meeting my instructor at a similar airport in TN. I wanna say sieverville... Anyway. It's way shorter than I was used to, the wind was gusty and across the runway, and I landed hot. I made the decision to go around and the second approach was much better so I landed. When I got back, I think I read on here about a mooney that was also making a similar landing that tried 3-4 times and crashed on the last one. :( Mooneys are unforgiving of "too fast" and I've read multiple times that if you try to force it on, you'll porpoise, and then you're going to get a prop strike, and then you're going to cry. :)

Honestly, I think you're asking the wrong question.

The questions is not "am I too cautious". Arguably, there's no such thing. Assuming the goal is to stay alive, any decision that results in that goal is correct.

I think what you're probably feeling is "Should I feel bad that at my current level of ability I chickened out for reasons that may seem trivial to other pilots or non-pilots?". Meh... there are procedural things you could work on... You should carry something (tablet, AF/D) in the plane so that if you want to go someplace other than planned, you can. Or just call flight service. But no, you shouldn't feel bad. This is what the expression "license to learn" means. You were in a situation, something was telling you it wasn't right, and you did the right thing.

If your girl friend doesn't like it, get another one.
 
MBDiagMan said:
No AWOS, but it was so close to my home field, I had no concerns about the weather. I did not know the condition of the pavement. Some small runways around here are a bit rough. Since getting back on the ground, I checked Foreflight and they indicated a paved runway in "fair" condition. If I would have checked runway condition first I would have probably not worried about that particular factor although I would be suspicious about what warrants it as Fair instead of Good.
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Gotta listen to the little voice in your head. It say, "Nope", you don't do that thing.
 
Rather be too cautious than less cautious...

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
MBDiagMan said:
So was I being too cautious or exercising good judgment?
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Yes and yes.

I say that cuz I fly with the attitude that every approach to landing is a go around until proven otherwise, so lets give it a shot as long as I always have an out if something isn't right or a bit outside my comfort zone. Going around is my FIRST option, not my last...but also yes to good judgement cuz admittedly your head was not in the game and that is more critcal than any physical or experience limitation. Cross that line and that is when you bend metal.
 
I soloed, and soloed students on a 1800 foot runway.... and we did touch and gos. We also did this completely snow covered.
Y'all are a bit of a.... whatever. 3000' is a long one.

If you can't handle this in a light airplane, without concerning yourself with short field procedures, you shouldn't be flying.
 
Too cautious, maybe, but if you don't feel comfortable then I would say it was a good decision. When you feel uncomfortable I think you are more susceptible to making mistakes.

The 3,000' runway is way more than enough for your Mooney. I am based a a 3,200x60 runway and if I'm right on my speeds can easily turn off by mid-field. As you get more time in your Mooney you will feel more and more comfortable with the shorter runways. The shortest I've landed on so far was 2,325x50, and had way more runway than I needed.
 
Any time you're uncomfortable in an aircraft with something and have the option to not do it, that's no problem for me. Plenty of bent metal from people with more bravado than caution.

I'll GINGERLY agree with @Kritchlow however in that 3000' should NOT be a problem in your aircraft... but...

If you're out of practice, you're out of practice.

Highly recommend grabbing a CFI and heading over there to do a few landings (or somewhere shorter if your CFI thinks the aircraft and the wind and the runway conditions all line up okay) in the airplane you think you'll have a sight picture problem in.

Setting up a stabilized approach and realizing you're high and fast is just a part of that learning process. The CFI will be able to let you have some rope to hang yourself safely but will still be there to be that little voice on your shoulder that says, "Go around. This isn't working out."

I usually recommend people make a list of things that spooked them this year in their flying and share the list with their CFI in prep for a flight review (or if Instrument rated, an IPC). Let the CFI know your weaknesses instead of making them dig for them. They'll figure it out anyway, but if you want to be a better pilot, just tell them...

"I'm still not comfortable flying this airplane into short runway airports. Can we make sure we work on that?"

Never met a CFI who wouldn't oblige a pilot's specific requests when working on refresher training. (Well, unless you're asking them to do something even they feel is unsafe, and they won't be shy about explaining why if you do, usually.)

They can give you tips on how to "see" if the runway picture looks too steep or shallow and also let you see yourself do it and either have to fix it or go around. The go around is always your last line of defense in that case.

For the bonus round, go try it at night. Whole different feel.

That all said, saying "not comfortable with this, not going to do it" in a scenario where you don't have to, always gets a thumbs up from me.

Might give you a little bit of a hard time and say, "Let's go fix that short runway problem of yours..." and help you figure it out and build some confidence in your ability to handle it, but no serious berating from me.

And remember. No reason you can't practice to Private ACS standards and then up your personal game to Commercial ACS standards or higher. All standards are *minumum* standard. You can always fly better. Just try not to fly worse. :)
 
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Kritchlow said:
I soloed, and soloed students on a 1800 foot runway.... and we did touch and gos. We also did this completely snow covered.
Y'all are a bit of a.... whatever. 3000' is a long one.

If you can't handle this in a light airplane, without concerning yourself with short field procedures, you shouldn't be flying.
Click to expand...

Please see post number 22.
 
Skates97 said:
Too cautious, maybe, but if you don't feel comfortable then I would say it was a good decision. When you feel uncomfortable I think you are more susceptible to making mistakes.

The 3,000' runway is way more than enough for your Mooney. I am based a a 3,200x60 runway and if I'm right on my speeds can easily turn off by mid-field. As you get more time in your Mooney you will feel more and more comfortable with the shorter runways. The shortest I've landed on so far was 2,325x50, and had way more runway than I needed.
Click to expand...

Please see post number 22.
 
denverpilot said:
Any time you're uncomfortable in an aircraft with something and have the option to not do it, that's no problem for me. Plenty of bent metal from people with more bravado than caution.

I'll GINGERLY agree with @Kritchlow however in that 3000' should NOT be a problem in your aircraft... but...

If you're out of practice, you're out of practice.

Highly recommend grabbing a CFI and heading over there to do a few landings (or somewhere shorter if your CFI thinks the aircraft and the wind and the runway conditions all line up okay) in the airplane you think you'll have a sight picture problem in.

Setting up a stabilized approach and realizing you're high and fast is just a part of that learning process. The CFI will be able to let you have some rope to hang yourself safely but will still be there to be that little voice on your shoulder that says, "Go around. This isn't working out."

I usually recommend people make a list of things that spooked them this year in their flying and share the list with their CFI in prep for a flight review (or if Instrument rated, an IPC). Let the CFI know your weaknesses instead of making them dig for them. They'll figure it out anyway, but if you want to be a better pilot, just tell them...

"I'm still not comfortable flying this airplane into short runway airports. Can we make sure we work on that?"

Never met a CFI who wouldn't oblige a pilot's specific requests when working on refresher training. (Well, unless you're asking them to do something even they feel is unsafe, and they won't be shy about explaining why if you do, usually.)

They can give you tips on how to "see" if the runway picture looks too steep or shallow and also let you see yourself do it and either have to fix it or go around. The go around is always your last line of defense in that case.

For the bonus round, go try it at night. Whole different feel.

That all said, saying "not comfortable with this, not going to do it" in a scenario where you don't have to, always gets a thumbs up from me.

Might give you a little bit of a hard time and say, "Let's go fix that short runway problem of yours..." and help you figure it out and build some confidence in your ability to handle it, but no serious berating from me.

And remember. No reason you can't practice to Private ACS standards and then up your personal game to Commercial ACS standards or higher. All standards are *minumum* standard. You can always fly better. Just try not to fly worse. :)
Click to expand...

Please see post number 22.
 
Folks I don't have a problem with short runways. As I said and then repeated early in the thread, it was not any one or two things that made me cruise away instead of landing. It was the buildup of a list of tiny little things that made it not smell right. If I had been by myself and wanted to go there and had planned going there before the flight, I fully expect that I would have landed or at the very least, made an approach and gone around or flown away if it wasn't right.
 
MBDiagMan said:
when I started decreasing power the engine didn't sound exactly right
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That would have made me want to land, rather than NOT want to land.
 
My first reaction was "3000' too short, is he kidding?" and "yes, too cautious", but when several things stack up and the little voice inside is saying "don't do it", it's best to listen. There's always another day.
 
I don't think you're too cautious, in fact, I don't think you are cautious enough. You asked this on POA expecting to get answers to the questions asked when you should have known that you were going to to be criticized by superior pilots. I would be more careful in the future. To answer the op, I do not think THAT was being too cautious, airplanes are unforgiving, anytime something feels off, don't do it in an airplane that isn't on fire.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Folks I don't have a problem with short runways. As I said and then repeated early in the thread, it was not any one or two things that made me cruise away instead of landing. It was the buildup of a list of tiny little things that made it not smell right. If I had been by myself and wanted to go there and had planned going there before the flight, I fully expect that I would have landed or at the very least, made an approach and gone around or flown away if it wasn't right.
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Those "little things" are sometimes "links" in an accident chain. Read a bunch of accident reports. For whatever valid reasons (training, practice, preflight information, weather, passengers, etc.) you decided there were too many "links".

I have a problem myself...I second guess my cautious choices and wonder if I was being silly (chicken, whatever). I wish I could get over that. Then I'm glad I don't get over it. Then I beat myself up for second guessing. LOL.

I do incident investigations in the chemical industry. Lots of human factors in any incident, aviation, chemical, or otherwise.
 
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