Aluminum Overcast Hail Damage

[jjflys]

We had some wicked hail storms last night in the Denver area and unfortunately the B-17 Aluminum Overcast was hit, sustaining damage to the flight control surfaces. I have heard spare parts are enroute from Oshkosh to fix her up, but she will be on the ground through the weekend.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me why an aircraft of such value would not have easier access to a hangar at stops, aside from the size of the aircraft. That being said while hail is not too uncommon for Colorado, it isn't common for a storm with that size of hail…

 

[murphey]

[snide comment on]

Considering there are at least 6 hangars physically close to where it's parked, I'm surprised no one moved it to a hangar ASAP. Of course those Citations and Lears are worth more, right?

[snide comment off]

 

[kyleb]

[snide comment on]

Considering there are at least 6 hangars physically close to where it's parked, I'm surprised no one moved it to a hangar ASAP. Of course those Citations and Lears are worth more, right?

[snide comment off]

Hangars tend to be full of paying customers who get really upset when you push their aircraft out into a hail storm.

What you need is a big, empty hangar to house AO, and I doubt there are many of those available in the urban areas where the she can earn her keep.

 

[Geico266]

We had the B-17 here for flights and it was manditory to put it in a hangar every night. In fact, we could not have gotten the plane scheduled here without a hangar available.

 

[EppyGA]

We just had the Tri Motor and a hangar was stipulated.

 

[Geico266]

We just had the Tri Motor and a hangar was stipulated.

I think someone has some "splanin" to do.

 

[flyer]

[snide comment on]

Considering there are at least 6 hangars physically close to where it's parked, I'm surprised no one moved it to a hangar ASAP. Of course those Citations and Lears are worth more, right?

[snide comment off]

If there was a hangar avaliable im wondering if the FBO is on the hook for the damages? Simuliar happened to a transiant 172 parked at a FBO that a friend of mine owned and his insurance co sued the FBO for the hail damage.

 

[Everskyward]

If there was a hangar avaliable im wondering if the FBO is on the hook for the damages? Simuliar happened to a transiant 172 parked at a FBO that a friend of mine owned and his insurance co sued the FBO for the hail damage.

I'm surprised that they did not arrange for a hangar for the airplane beforehand, however as the storm started to look more ominous I'm sure there was a mad scramble for hangars. By everyone. I heard that there were about 80 airplanes which lost out.

 

[murphey]

Hangars tend to be full of paying customers who get really upset when you push their aircraft out into a hail storm.

What you need is a big, empty hangar to house AO, and I doubt there are many of those available in the urban areas where the she can earn her keep.

Considering the B17 is the EAA ship, and is hosted here by the Wings Over the Rockies Museum, which has an auxillary facility at KAPA, I'm still astonished that either no one paid any attention to the weather and/or that no one could figure out how to find hangar space. Get on the phone to the facility people and find something.

 

[wabower]

I have encountered at least one hail storm in CO every summer, some of which have caused significant damage to cars, trailers, RV's etc. Playing golf in Aspen recently, had four separate hail storms during one round. Hail falls, ground turns white, 15 minutes later it has melted. Wait an hour or so and it happens again.

We had some wicked hail storms last night in the Denver area and unfortunately the B-17 Aluminum Overcast was hit, sustaining damage to the flight control surfaces. I have heard spare parts are enroute from Oshkosh to fix her up, but she will be on the ground through the weekend.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me why an aircraft of such value would not have easier access to a hangar at stops, aside from the size of the aircraft. That being said while hail is not too uncommon for Colorado, it isn't common for a storm with that size of hail…

 

[Anthony]

If there were no hangars available at KAPA, they could have tried KTFG, or KBJC. There is no reason a 17 should be sitting out at night or in a storm.

 

[murphey]

If there were no hangars available at KAPA, they could have tried KTFG, or KBJC. There is no reason a 17 should be sitting out at night or in a storm.

Plenty of room in very huge hangars at FTG. Probably by the time anyone realized the problem, there was no way to fly the 15 min up there. I don't remember what the winds were, but 8-26 is closed. It may not have been possible to land her. It may not have been possible to take off, either.

 

[Anthony]

Plenty of room in very huge hangars at FTG. Probably by the time anyone realized the problem, there was no way to fly the 15 min up there. I don't remember what the winds were, but 8-26 is closed. It may not have been possible to land her. It may not have been possible to take off, either.

I agree, but their logistics person who is responsible for planning, and preperation should have had a hangar lined up somewhere in the area to put the plane while not flying. It should have been in a hangar well before any weather showed up.

 

[Geico266]

I agree, but their logistics person who is responsible for planning, and preperation should have had a hangar lined up somewhere in the area to put the plane while not flying. It should have been in a hangar well before any weather showed up.

Someone has some splainin to do.

 

[kyleb]

Someone has some splainin to do.

It has been 5 years since our EAA chapter hosted AO, but we've done it at 3 different fields, none of which had a hangar suitable for the A/C.

Sometimes stuff happens. That's just how it is.

 

[Anthony]

I know KFTG has hangars suitable for the aircraft. Why wasn't it moved there while not in use?

If I told my clients "Stuff Happens" as an excuse for damages to their property, and not being prepared for it, I'd get FIRED immediately. Sorry, that's just not an acceptable answer.

Sure, not all catastrophes can be avoided, but "stuff happens" tells me that EAA's insurance carrier, will be asking "why did this stuff happen"?

 

[murphey]

I know KFTG has hangars suitable for the aircraft. Why wasn't it moved there while not in use?

If I told my clients "Stuff Happens" as an excuse for damages to their property, and not being prepared for it, I'd get FIRED immediately. Sorry, that's just not an acceptable answer.

Sure, not all catastrophes can be avoided, but "stuff happens" tells me that EAA's insurance carrier, will be asking "why did this stuff happen"?

I'm not sure the B17 is insurable - how would you go about determining value? I have no doubt there is some level of insurance, but consider the AO is not replaceable, only repaired to some point. EAA may self-insure the AO.

Good example - my great-grandmother's rings (engagement & wedding) are from the late 1890s. Evaluation for insurance (replaceable) is $30,000. Yet if I want to sell, the value is less than $3000.

 

[Anthony]

Well, insurable or not, somebody pays, and its not like these things grow on trees. They are flying museum pieces, and should be treated as such.

 

[gkainz]

I have encountered at least one hail storm in CO every summer, some of which have caused significant damage to cars, trailers, RV's etc. Playing golf in Aspen recently, had four separate hail storms during one round. Hail falls, ground turns white, 15 minutes later it has melted. Wait an hour or so and it happens again.

When the storm drops golf-ball sized hail, how to you decide which one to play?

 

[Captain]

Ive found that many times the issue isn't hangar space but the ability to tow the thing. I have no idea what sort of tow bar / tug combo is required to move a B-17.

No way is the FBO on the hook for ice falling out of the sky though.

 

[dhindmanjr]

A last minute move to a hanger at FTG sounds like a good option, but the winds were wicked that afternoon and you would have had fly AO into the storm. Better to leave it on the ground and take your chances. I live 10 miles east of APA and we had very little hail and no damage. Not sure why there was no hanger space at APA - but paying customers might have had all the good spots taken for that large an aircraft. AO has been coming to APA for years and to my knowledge they have always kept it on the ramp. So this was SOP. Sad that she is damaged, but if it was only the cloth control surfaces, they were lucky. I have heard several reports of planes totaled by the hail.

 

[n20junkie]

A simple aet of padded covers for the tail and sensitive areas would be good kit for that plane.

 

[Anthony]

A last minute move to a hanger at FTG sounds like a good option, but the winds were wicked that afternoon and you would have had fly AO into the storm.

How about a move to a hangar somewhere well before the storm? Can you imagine the damage that could have been done to the airframe if it really took sustained hits from large size hail? I think they got really lucky on this one, maybe next time it won't be so.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

How about a move to a hangar somewhere well before the storm?

That is all well and good if one is available. Might be something for the EAA to consider going forward. Put in the contract that a suitable hangar must be provided.

 

[kyleb]

That is all well and good if one is available. Might be something for the EAA to consider going forward. Put in the contract that a suitable hangar must be provided.

That would end the tours unless they wanted to only operate from airline maintenance hubs. I've never been anywhere else you could get that large of a hangar on demand. Even at Osh, they don't have storage options in the timeframe before, during, and after the fly-in.

 

[hopmedic]

Ive found that many times the issue isn't hangar space but the ability to tow the thing. I have no idea what sort of tow bar / tug combo is required to move a B-17.

We hosted the Ford a couple weeks ago and they had their own tow bar. Since it's owned by the same organization, I'd be surprised if AO didn't carry its own as well.

My response to this is to wonder why didn't they just leave ahead of the storm? When Hurricaine Hugo hit SC, all the Naval vessels in port took off because they could outrun it (mine was a sub with a 6' hole cut in the top of her, so I actually slept through the storm, even as the eye passed over ). I know a T-storm moves faster than a hurricaine, but so does a bomber move faster than a destroyer. Why not take off and go somewhere that the storm isn't going???

 

[steingar]

When I ran a Trimotor event, it was explained to me that the Trimotor needed a hangar because it could sustain wind damage. Indeed, the EAA got the thing when a storm hit Rockford during the fly-in, lifting the Trimotor high in the air before dropping it unceremoniously to the ground. The repair effort took years.

They said that they didn't need a hangar for the B17 because the amount of wind it would take to move it would also move the hangar in which it was stored. I can't imagine them requiring a hangar of everyone for the B17, it's sufficiently large that no everyone will have one available.

 

[hopmedic]

When I ran a Trimotor event, it was explained to me that the Trimotor needed a hangar because it could sustain wind damage. Indeed, the EAA got the thing when a storm hit Rockford during the fly-in, lifting the Trimotor high in the air before dropping it unceremoniously to the ground. The repair effort took years.

They said that they didn't need a hangar for the B17 because the amount of wind it would take to move it would also move the hangar in which it was stored. I can't imagine them requiring a hangar of everyone for the B17, it's sufficiently large that no everyone will have one available.

This makes sense, but since it is not a stationary object, why not fly it away???

 

[steingar]

This makes sense, but since it is not a stationary object, why not fly it away???

The pilots might have been out of duty time. The thing might not have had any enough in it. Heck, given it's fuel burn it might not be cost effective to fly it out of the way of every storm that comes through.

 

[wanttaja]

Ive found that many times the issue isn't hangar space but the ability to tow the thing. I have no idea what sort of tow bar / tug combo is required to move a B-17.

Aluminum Overcast normally travels with a pretty significant logistics "tail" of Ford pickups and trailers. When they were here a couple of years back, I noticed a complete replacement main wheel/tire in one trailer along with a ton of other stuff. I suspect they carry a towbar that hooks to a normal tug.

However, the "tail" obviously can't be with the airplane 100% of the time. Depending on the timing, the plane may have arrived before the trucks or the trucks may have departed earlier.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[wanttaja]

Aluminum Overcast normally travels with a pretty significant logistics "tail" of Ford pickups and trailers. When they were here a couple of years back, I noticed a complete replacement main wheel/tire in one trailer along with a ton of other stuff. I suspect they carry a towbar that hooks to a normal tug.

Found a picture I took inside one of the trailers. See Page 4 of:

http://www.wanttaja.com/ronsride.pdf

Looks like there's a towbar in front of the tire...

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Tom-D]

duct tape it and go fly.

 

[Jay Honeck]

duct tape it and go fly.

Agreed! That's what they would have done back in the war.

Of course, the duct tape they had was WAY different. I've cleaned up junked parts from the war that had duct tape on them that was still sticky!

 

[Everskyward]

I went to visit Aluminum Overcast today. It was on display hail damage and all. I'll post pictures in a little while. The control surfaces had been removed. They had a aileron (I think) on display as an example of the damage. I spoke to one of the volunteers and he said parts are on the way and it should be repaired, so to speak, in a few days. There are definitely dimples all over the wings from the hail but I guess they'll just fly it that way. The wings aren't exactly smooth to begin with because of the rivets. I told him it gave the airplane more character.

I also asked about the hangar. He said there will be controversy over whether they should have gotten one or not but their original intent was to have it on the ramp for the stay. Note that this hailstorm happened late at night so it would have been difficult to mobilize people to fly it away. Not only that there was weather all around so it was probably safer at that point to stay on the ground.

 

[flyer]

I also asked about the hangar. He said there will be controversy over whether they should have gotten one or not but their original intent was to have it on the ramp for the stay. Note that this hailstorm happened late at night so it would have been difficult to mobilize people to fly it away. Not only that there was weather all around so it was probably safer at that point to stay on the ground.

Sounds like someone should have been looking at the weather forecast for that evening. Now a days severe storm area forecasting is getting pretty accurate.

 

[Everskyward]

These are the two pictures which show the hail damage the best.

Here are some more pictures that I took.

http://smu.gs/KigizN

 

[Geico266]

That is just heart breaking. Thanks for posting the pictures.

They should fly it home, and never let it fly anywhere again with out a hangar.

The people in Denver should feel the same shame as the people in Dallas in 1962.

 

[hopmedic]

That is a crying shame.

 

[Everskyward]

Just a little bit of thread drift. I noticed that the airplane was open for display when we got back from a trip late this afternoon so I decided to take a look. I was just about the last person in line, which was nice because I could dawdle, taking pictures, without wondering about the line behind me. I noticed that the other people in line were mostly younger than me, with children.

The two people directly in front of me were a grandmother and her granddaughter who seemed to be about 10. They came out to the airport because the girl had seen an ad in the newspaper about the B-17 display. The grandmother said they also liked to go to the Perfect Landing to watch the airplanes. The girl was excited every time an airplane taxied by. I thought that was a nice change from the attitude that, "Kids these days aren't interested in airplanes," which I seem to see all the time here.

 

[murphey]

Just a little bit of thread drift. I noticed that the airplane was open for display when we got back from a trip late this afternoon so I decided to take a look. I was just about the last person in line, which was nice because I could dawdle, taking pictures, without wondering about the line behind me. I noticed that the other people in line were mostly younger than me, with children.

The two people directly in front of me were a grandmother and her granddaughter who seemed to be about 10. They came out to the airport because the girl had seen an ad in the newspaper about the B-17 display. The grandmother said they also liked to go to the Perfect Landing to watch the airplanes. The girl was excited every time an airplane taxied by. I thought that was a nice change from the attitude that, "Kids these days aren't interested in airplanes," which I seem to see all the time here.

And we're flying Young Eagles all 5 days - Wed thru Sunday, weather permitting. Just walk up - please register before 9 am!.