Alternator on or off during engine start and stop?

My 1970 Cherokee 140 has a split switch and ammeter... no voltmeter.

After reading this thread, I'm inclined to start the plane on battery only.

My primer was disconnected a long time ago... so I prime with throttle... and the crank while priming thing seems like it'll serve me well in addition to this switch stuff.

Learn something new every day.

You would do better to follow your POH than SGOTI. It says to turn the master on. Turn the master on. All of it.

The reason you have a split master is so that you can turn the alternator OFF if the voltage regulator fails. Otherwise, you'll cook all sorts of things with excessive voltage. Those models with overvoltage protection (which I believe your 140 does have) require the field circuit to be turned off in order to disengage. The control is there because it's in an emergency checklist. If it weren't, you would have just a single master.

If you wish to modify what Piper said in their manual, seek a better expert than SGOTI.
 
A digital voltmeter from pepreillyzone plugged into the cigar lighter socket makes a fine non-tso'd installation to monitor a Piper's modern 1954 designed charging system.

Unnecessary. PA28s have an annunciation for that. The ammeter indicates what the charging system is doing, so an indicated discharge is a bad thing. It's rather like a 1970 Buick.
 
You would do better to follow your POH than SGOTI. It says to turn the master on. Turn the master on. All of it.

The reason you have a split master is so that you can turn the alternator OFF if the voltage regulator fails. Otherwise, you'll cook all sorts of things with excessive voltage. Those models with overvoltage protection (which I believe your 140 does have) require the field circuit to be turned off in order to disengage. The control is there because it's in an emergency checklist. If it weren't, you would have just a single master.

If you wish to modify what Piper said in their manual, seek a better expert than SGOTI.

Huh. My AFM also doesn't call for priming unless the engine doesn't start the first time... interesting.
 
Huh. My AFM also doesn't call for priming unless the engine doesn't start the first time... interesting.
If it's warm, you can often start many aircraft engines with no priming. I've done it with both carbureted and injected engines. Some are easier than others. The modern language in recent Cessna POHs is "If engine is warm, omit priming procedure steps XX thru YY below." Priming when it doesn't need it can lead to backfires. Real embarrassing, and it can break stuff or light fires in the worst case.

POHs aren't always the best advice (for instance, Cardinal 200 HP injected engines are notoriously difficult to get started when warm), but it's much better authority than SGOTI.
 
Unnecessary. PA28s have an annunciation for that. The ammeter indicates what the charging system is doing, so an indicated discharge is a bad thing. It's rather like a 1970 Buick.
Necessary. Voltmeter indicates battery status when master switch is on. Also can observe voltage drop when cranking.

In other words you are entitled to your opinion even if it is a really bad one.
 
Necessary. Voltmeter indicates battery status when master switch is on. Also can observe voltage drop when cranking.

In other words you are entitled to your opinion even if it is a really bad one.

If it was necessary the system wouldn't run without it. It might be nice to have. But so many voltmeters, especially cheap ones, are inaccurate to the point they're nearly useless. The difference between the battery's nominal voltage and the charging voltage might only be a volt or volt and a half. If the charging voltage is supposed to be 13.8 volts, and is actually doing 13.8 volts, but the cheap voltmeter shows 13.5 or 14.3 volts, the pilot might get all worked up and worried, all for nothing. There is such a thing as too much information, and we see it sometimes once a guy gets a multi-point EGT/CHT system in his airplane and finds significant temp spreads between cylinders and gets all sweaty over them. They were there all along and are a feature of primitive induction and exhaust and cooling systems and you might spend big bucks trying to get the stupid numbers to line up.

Voltage drop during cranking is affected by much more than the battery. Many perfectly good batteries are replaced when the starter gets lazy. Or the starter gets replaced. And gets replaced again because the new one is lazy, too. The real problem is often old and burned or oxidized contacts in the master or starter contactors, those little things that cost $50 or whatever and take less time to replace than it does to get the cowl off and on again. At 250 cranking amps, a tiny resistance can cause a huge voltage drop. Volts equals amps times ohms. If the drop is across the starter contactor, it will not show up on your voltmeter, which is connected to the bus. If it's the master contactor it will, but it doesn't tell you whether it's the battery or contactor or a corroded cable terminal that's doing it. It's just information without useful direction.
 
If it was necessary the system wouldn't run without it. It might be nice to have. But so many voltmeters, especially cheap ones, are inaccurate to the point they're nearly useless. The difference between the battery's nominal voltage and the charging voltage might only be a volt or volt and a half. If the charging voltage is supposed to be 13.8 volts, and is actually doing 13.8 volts, but the cheap voltmeter shows 13.5 or 14.3 volts, the pilot might get all worked up and worried, all for nothing. There is such a thing as too much information, and we see it sometimes once a guy gets a multi-point EGT/CHT system in his airplane and finds significant temp spreads between cylinders and gets all sweaty over them. They were there all along and are a feature of primitive induction and exhaust and cooling systems and you might spend big bucks trying to get the stupid numbers to line up.

Voltage drop during cranking is affected by much more than the battery. Many perfectly good batteries are replaced when the starter gets lazy. Or the starter gets replaced. And gets replaced again because the new one is lazy, too. The real problem is often old and burned or oxidized contacts in the master or starter contactors, those little things that cost $50 or whatever and take less time to replace than it does to get the cowl off and on again. At 250 cranking amps, a tiny resistance can cause a huge voltage drop. Volts equals amps times ohms. If the drop is across the starter contactor, it will not show up on your voltmeter, which is connected to the bus. If it's the master contactor it will, but it doesn't tell you whether it's the battery or contactor or a corroded cable terminal that's doing it. It's just information without useful direction.
I love hypotheticals. It could, it might, it woul have....of course everything is the way it might be.
 
Well a voltmeter in my plane would have showed me that my battery wouldn't hold a damn charge. The ammeter doesn't do me much good when I'm trying to crank the plane. A voltmeter is a nice extra thing to have.
 
Well a voltmeter in my plane would have showed me that my battery wouldn't hold a damn charge. The ammeter doesn't do me much good when I'm trying to crank the plane. A voltmeter is a nice extra thing to have.
The slow cranking tells you the state of the starter circuit, including the battery. That's enough to tell you something is wrong. It's almost exactly the same information you would get from a voltmeter.

If the airplane cranks normally right after charging, but cranks slow or not at all the next morning, your battery won't hold a charge, either because it's defective or because you have a parasitic drain. A voltmeter can't distinguish the two either (but an ammeter can).
 
The slow cranking tells you the state of the starter circuit, including the battery. That's enough to tell you something is wrong. It's almost exactly the same information you would get from a voltmeter.
You are just silly.
 
You are just silly.
I've been diagnosing car electrics for years, and a voltmeter is not needed for the preliminaries. You need it for the actual repair, but not before. Most cars don't have them, yet people figure out pretty quickly when the starter won't crank properly. They jump to conclusions sometimes, but that's another story.

You do realize that cranking the engine is a load test, right? And you can hear how effective it is.
 
I've been diagnosing car electrics for years, and a voltmeter is not needed for the preliminaries. You need it for the actual repair, but not before. Most cars don't have them, yet people figure out pretty quickly when the starter won't crank properly. They jump to conclusions sometimes, but that's another story.

You do realize that cranking the engine is a load test, right? And you can hear how effective it is.
Check the bolded. Your claim is silly. Perhaps if you were better at diagnostics it wouldn't take you years to figure it out?

Simple example. Last year the alternator on one of my vehicles had a partial failure. I figured it out in about 2 minutes using a voltmeter. No voltmeter was required for the repair. Only needed a couple wrenches for that.
 
Check the bolded. Your claim is silly. Perhaps if you were better at diagnostics it wouldn't take you years to figure it out?

Simple example. Last year the alternator on one of my vehicles had a partial failure. I figured it out in about 2 minutes using a voltmeter. No voltmeter was required for the repair. Only needed a couple wrenches for that.

Did that panel-mounted voltmeter tell you that it was the alternator and not the regulator or one of the several connections involved? An ammeter would give you exactly the same information.

You are arguing with folks here who fix airplanes all day for a living.
 
Did that panel-mounted voltmeter tell you that it was the alternator and not the regulator or one of the several connections involved? An ammeter would give you exactly the same information.

You are arguing with folks here who fix airplanes all day for a living.
Mak doesn't fix planes for a living, he just likes to argue that any opinion other than his is wrong.

I never said it was a panel mounted voltmeter. I can't help you when you jump to conclusions and want to claim I'm wrong no matter what. As for alternator vs regulator it was an integrated unit. Do keep trying to prove your unprovable point that a volt meter provides no benefit.
 
Check the bolded. Your claim is silly. Perhaps if you were better at diagnostics it wouldn't take you years to figure it out?

Simple example. Last year the alternator on one of my vehicles had a partial failure. I figured it out in about 2 minutes using a voltmeter. No voltmeter was required for the repair. Only needed a couple wrenches for that.

Scope, dude. The alternator is not part of the STARTING system.

You can do that diagnosis MUCH MORE RELIABLY with a differential ammeter, which the Cherokee 140 has.

If you didn't troubleshoot the circuit for your repair, you made a guess, not a competent diagnosis. The alternator is part of the circuit, but so is the load, and so are the various 0 gauge cables and all their connections. The voltage regulator may be separate (but it usually isn't on a modern alternator). "Partial failures" often trace to a poor engine block ground or B+ connection. The latter would have been accidentally repaired by R/R the alternator, whether it was bad or not. BASIC -- and I mean 101 level -- electrical diagnosis is to isolate the voltage drop. That's where the fault lies, and it cannot be done without a voltmeter.

And some "partial failures" are damn hard to diagnose without an oscilloscope. Good luck if one of the rectifier diodes blows. Which is a really common failure mode for an alternator.

Guess what? A voltmeter is necessary to diagnose your power windows, too. Just as relevant.
 
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Scope, dude. The alternator is not part of the STARTING system.

You can do that diagnosis MUCH MORE RELIABLY with a differential ammeter, which the Cherokee 140 has.

If you didn't troubleshoot the circuit for your repair, you made a guess, not a competent diagnosis. The alternator is part of the circuit, but so is the load, and so are the various 0 gauge cables and all their connections. The voltage regulator may be separate (but it usually isn't on a modern alternator). "Partial failures" often trace to a poor engine block ground or B+ connection. The latter would have been accidentally repaired by R/R the alternator, whether it was bad or not. BASIC -- and I mean 101 level -- electrical diagnosis is to isolate the voltage drop. That's where the fault lies, and it cannot be done without a voltmeter.

And some "partial failures" are damn hard to diagnose without an oscilloscope. Good luck if one of the rectifier diodes blows. Which is a really common failure mode for an alternator.

Guess what? A voltmeter is necessary to diagnose your power windows, too. Just as relevant.
Do you even read what other people write or do you just go off on a rampage? I said I diagnosed it with a voltmeter. It's very easy to read low voltage from the alternator and an oscilloscope is not required. When it's an integrated unit then yer done, pull the old and put in the new, check output of new and move on.

Why are you trying to complicate thinks and arguing against routinely monitoring system voltage. Are you insane? Or do you just play an insane person on the internet? Your answer really doesn't matter to me. Maybe your answer should matter to you.
 
Do you even read what other people write or do you just go off on a rampage? I said I diagnosed it with a voltmeter. It's very easy to read low voltage from the alternator and an oscilloscope is not required. When it's an integrated unit then yer done, pull the old and put in the new, check output of new and move on.

Why are you trying to complicate thinks and arguing against routinely monitoring system voltage. Are you insane? Or do you just play an insane person on the internet? Your answer really doesn't matter to me. Maybe your answer should matter to you.

Sure, you can read low voltage on a voltmeter. But what does it mean? You guessed. Maybe you were right, maybe you weren't. You'll never know, even if the low voltage went away. Sometimes all that repair needs is to pull a connection and put it back on. That scrapes corrosion off the surface.

And I object to it being called "required" or even nice to have. It is not necessary to have a permanently installed voltmeter in your aircraft or in your car. An ammeter will serve as well. Just gotta understand your DC electrics. If you want to have it, it's another thing to break or misinterpret, but it's your choice. It's not necessary.
 
You would do better to follow your POH than SGOTI. It says to turn the master on. Turn the master on. All of it.
...

The battery master and the alternator are two different things.
 
Too bad airplanes don't use integrated alternators, and they're also wired differently from cars. There are numerous differences that require troubleshooting techniques that are also different and more involved.
 
Too bad airplanes don't use integrated alternators, and they're also wired differently from cars. There are numerous differences that require troubleshooting techniques that are also different and more involved.
Well at least you are off of your hypotheticals. Many aircraft have very simple electrical systems. Certainly the single engine trainers are simple. Once ya get into dual alternator or other back-up systems things get more interesting...and even Boeing had a little electrical system problem not so long ago.

Anyway I find folks arguing against monitoring readily available information to be incredibly short sighted. Heck, my aircraft will even tell me when it senses low voltage. It won't tell me when it senses low amp output from the alternator since that would be silly. Do you see where I'm going with this? The concerns of a mechanic and the concerns of the equipment operator can be very different depending on circumstances. The design choices made 40 years ago maybe weren't so good or would be different today because of changes in technology. In some cases we aren't bound by those choices fortunately.
 
Unnecessary. PA28s have an annunciation for that. The ammeter indicates what the charging system is doing, so an indicated discharge is a bad thing. It's rather like a 1970 Buick.
FWIW, PA28s have a charge indicator so you can tell how much your alternator is charging.
There is no discharge indicator so you cannot see an indicated discharge.
 
Well at least you are off of your hypotheticals. Many aircraft have very simple electrical systems. Certainly the single engine trainers are simple. Once ya get into dual alternator or other back-up systems things get more interesting...and even Boeing had a little electrical system problem not so long ago.

Hypotheticals? The things I find rather often when troubleshooting aircraft electrical problems? And even single-engine trainers have more stuff than a car: master contactors, overvolt sensors, direct alternator/regulator control (which is even more complicated in the newer aircraft), multiple buses (six in a 172R/S for example, with various relays and diodes to control them all), and so on.

Are you an aircraft mechanic?
 
Woah there guys have you made sure that you guys are checking the A.S.H. Receiver and the hydroelectric filter switch before you discuss these hypotheticals? Otherwise your regulator overload breaker might not be relaying to the alternator circuit bus.
 
Hypotheticals? The things I find rather often when troubleshooting aircraft electrical problems? And even single-engine trainers have more stuff than a car: master contactors, overvolt sensors, direct alternator/regulator control (which is even more complicated in the newer aircraft), multiple buses (six in a 172R/S for example, with various relays and diodes to control them all), and so on.

Are you an aircraft mechanic?

Yes, you went off on so many things that you imagined could be bad about a voltmeter. It was hilarious the things you prevaricated and assigned blame along with poor maintenance practices.

Do you think a car doesn't have multiple buses with multiple relays? Throw in computer controls and they are much more complicated than aircraft systems.
 
Most of the airplanes I currently fly only have a master, not separate battery/generator switches! Whatever shall I do?
Mine just has a knob for the magnetos. What are these switches everyone's talking about? Starter?
 
Yes, you went off on so many things that you imagined could be bad about a voltmeter. It was hilarious the things you prevaricated and assigned blame along with poor maintenance practices.

Do you think a car doesn't have multiple buses with multiple relays? Throw in computer controls and they are much more complicated than aircraft systems.

So you're not familiar with aircraft electrical systems, then.
 
Switches are small diameter branchs cut from a willow tree.

When I "had it coming", my grandmother made me go outside and cut a willow switch for her to "give me a whuppin'.

I had to choose carefully. If it was too small, she would choose a bigger one. If it was too big, I would think I was gonna die before she was done with me.

:D :D

It wasn't as bad as it sounds. I survived just fine, and prolly became a better behaved kid.

:D
 
Thread locked - no more posts allowed sorry guys
 
According to the POH for our C177RG you turn both alt/bat on and off at the same time for start and shutdown. The only case where it recommends during off the alt switch is in the case of an excessive rate of charge being produced by the alternator.
 
"ALT Off ensures alternator is not loading the battery, thus maximum power to the starter"

An alternator simply cannot draw current from a battery even when the field is off. The internal rectifier diodes on the stator winding prevent this from ever happening.

Furthermore, on most every split master system that I have seen, the alternator output is continuously connected to the master bus through the ALT breaker while the battery is connected to the bus side of the ALT breaker. Thus the battery and alternator always see each other regardless of the ALT master position, unless the ALT breaker is tripped (or pulled if not a reset only breaker).

The ONLY thing that the ALT side of the master switch does is supply a voltage signal to the voltage regulator "sense" terminal. When voltage is sensed by the regulator sense circuitry (ALT master on), the regulator energizes the alternator field. When the ALT master is switched off, the sense signal is removed from the regulator, switching the regulator off, thus the alternator field is de-energized, which stops the alternator voltage generation.
 
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Holy necropost!

this has been happening a lot lately.
The irony of this thread. It’s not like I just had a relatable episode about this subject or anything… :D

<whistles and walks away>
 
I was going to comment about letting the vacuum tubes warm up first, and making sure you energize the starter before yelling "Mesh" - and watch for the right light signal and/or flare gun color before taxing...........
 
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