Already Under Basic Med. DUI. Section 68.11

[Rocko]

Already flying under Basic Med for several years. Fortunate for me.

Got a 2024 DUI. Yup. Stupid of me. Not blaming anybody else. Save the lecture.

Fortunately no medical cert or SI letter for FAA to suspend/withdraw.

Holding off on completing my online course. Well aware of: The NDR check. CFR 68.9. CFR 67.307a4. CFR 68.11. CFR 49.44709b. CFR 61.113 CFR 61.23 CFR 61.53 etc.

Dutifully reported per CFR 61.15. Got the AMCD boiler plate "phishing" letter. (i.e., You don't have an open medical app on file? We tried to suspend/revoke your medical cert but you don't have one; we've flagged your airman medical file should you ever decide to apply for a Part 67 medical cert again.) Cc'ed to my AME circa 10+ years ago, BTW. He didn't fall for it either and didn't send them anything. Nice try.

Seeking intel how FAA is handling this these days. I've read threads here going back to 2018. But we don't live in a static world. Options include (but not limited to) waiting it out for MOSAIC, or 3+ years NDR (49 CFR 30305b3).

Questions:

CFR 68.11: What constitutes "credible or urgent" info for purposes of invoking this section? Just having a recent NDR hit? Or do you need to do something especially noteworthy (e.g. prostitutes, donkeys, sheep, vehicle skidded to a halt on the roof of a house...)? *I'm holding off at least to check NDR to make sure I show as Licensed vs. Not Eligible- i.e. my DL has been reinstated.

Anybody has experienced this yet? What "additional information" do they demand? (My civilian evaluation found that I did not meet criteria for any level of DSM V disorder). Putting on my "tinfoil hat," I anticipate they'll ask for the same stuff they'd ask of a Part 67 medical cert applicant, e.g. BAC, police report, state driving and court records, etc. For the purpose to make a final determination of my continuing eligibility to fly per 61.113. Especially, 68.11 is broadly and ominously worded so I seek to avoid a Marlon Brando "offer I can't refuse" to get acquainted with my local HIMS shrink and copious pee cups (no disrespect to Dr. Chien) to prove my relative innocence.

I hope my fellow birdmen out here don't have such recent experience, but I appreciate any thoughts if you do. Happy Holidays. Fly safe. Don't drink and drive. Jail food sucks. Basic Med is a blessing. But it's not a "get out of jail" card. In the words of my PCP ( a former AME), when you become a pilot of "a certain age," don't ask for any more medical certification than you need for your flight ops.

 

[Jon Wilder]

The state will suspend your driver license as part of the administrative side of your DUI case. That alone invalidates your BasicMed (61.113(i)).

 

[Rocko]

The state will suspend your driver license as part of the administrative side of your DUI case. That alone invalidates your BasicMed (61.113(i)).

Correct. My DL has been reinstated. That's one of the reasons I'll check my status in NDR before I complete the course. I haven't been flying while my DL was suspended. Thanks.

 

[wellknow]

save the lecture. haha

 

[LurkingAndCurious]

This is interesting

So if when you hit apply your license is not suspended, good to go?

Cool if true, the FAA using traffic violations at medical diagnostics has always been pants on head silly

 

[Rocko]

save the lecture. haha

Yup. Dealing with this mess is its own lecture.

 

[Lindberg]

What's your question? How high was your BAC? If you don't meet the FAR definition of substance dependence, you don't need an SI to remain on basic med. Are you asking if the FAA is going to revoke your pilot certificate for a single DUI?

 

[midlifeflyer]

This is interesting

So if when you hit apply your license is not suspended, good to go?

Cool if true, the FAA using traffic violations at medical diagnostics has always been pants on head silly

I regularly rant against the FAA's pickup of society's overzealous zero tolerance of human frailty, especially in this area, but I really don't see a problem with the FAA looking at a DUI as a potential indicator of a medical or psychological problem.

 

[Rocko]

This is interesting

So if when you hit apply your license is not suspended, good to go?

Cool if true, the FAA using traffic violations at medical diagnostics has always been pants on head silly

Not likely. I've read here that there's a "boilerplate" letter they send out if you don't meet 1 or more of the eligibility criteria for 61.113. One of those criteria is to hold a valid DL. Mine's reinstated, but I'm going to check my status in NDR first. Just one less tick mark to worry about. As I understand it, if you're suspended you show up in NDR as "Not Eligible," but if you've been reinstated you show up as "Licensed."

If it was within the last 3 years they'll see it though. I've already reported it per 61.15 so no closet skeletons there. But the wording of 68.11 is ominously broad, and NDR is one of the specified sources of "credible or urgent" information which could trigger them to dig more.

In one aspect, "no news is good news." I've spoken with AOPA and informally with my local AME (also HIMS certified). I'm not hearing or reading reports of BM pilots receiving letters from FAA demanding additional records or invoking 68.9 (SI). If it was typical for the process it seems we'd likely read or hear more about it.

But I'm not banking on that, so I'm asking around to see if anybody already under BM has had firsthand experience with this, or knows what FAA's internal process/policy is on this.

 

[Rocko]

What's your question? How high was your BAC? If you don't meet the FAR definition of substance dependence, you don't need an AI to remain on basic med. Are you asking if the FAA is going to revoke your pilot certificate for a single DUI?

Thanks. No, I don't perceive they'd yank my pilot cert. I've complied with 61.15 reports, and I don't meet that criteria (e.g. 2x or more within 3 years). BAC would trigger their definition of substance dependence and HIMS Hell if I applied for a medical certificate under Part 67. But my state mandated evaluation resulted in "did not meet diagnostic criteria for any level of AUD." (DSM V).

When I submitted 61.15 reports to Investigations branch, they notified AMCD. AMCD sent me a weirdly worded letter that they had received "documents" that they keep in my airman medical file if I decide to apply for a medical certificate in the future. But the letter didn't say anything about BM. (My airman registry shows that I've been doing BM course and CMEC, so I perceive they could see that.)

Question I'm asking is if anybody has experience with FAA demanding additional info under 68.11 because they got a hit on the NDR when they completed the BM online course? What info do they demand? And if so, what happens after that?

 

[Rocko]

I regularly rant against the FAA's pickup of society's overzealous zero tolerance of human frailty, especially in this area, but I really don't see a problem with the FAA looking at a DUI as a potential indicator of a medical or psychological problem.

Right. I'm just trying to see if anyone has firsthand experience with the BM process in this regard so I can evaluate my options. At this point in life I don't want any more hassle than this has already been. If completing the BM course opens a can of worms (68.11 and/or 68.9) then maybe it's time to wait and see what MOSAIC may offer, or go get my glider ratings.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Right. I'm just trying to see if anyone has firsthand experience with the BM process in this regard so I can evaluate my options. At this point in life I don't want any more hassle than this has already been. If completing the BM course opens a can of worms (68.11 and/or 68.9) then maybe it's time to wait and see what MOSAIC may offer, or go get my glider ratings.

You ask a good question. Another issue will be whether your doctor will sign off you next medical exam with the DUI.

But I think your question is more about whether the 61.15 disclosure coupled with taking a new exam will flag a 68.11 inquiry more than the 61.15 disclosure alone. I’m enough out of the biz that I don’t have an answer for you. Hopefully one of the folks who deal with these issues will.

 

[Rocko]

You ask a good question. Another issue will be whether your doctor will sign off you next medical exam with the DUI.

But I think your question is more about whether the 61.15 disclosure coupled with taking a new exam will flag a 68.11 inquiry more than the 61.15 disclosure alone. I’m enough out of the biz that I don’t have an answer for you. Hopefully one of the folks who deal with these issues will.

Thanks. Right. I'll be discussing the matter with my PCP before I fly again as well. I can share my eval with him (and successful completion of EI program with UA verification) and my experience with him is that likely he'll concur I did something bad & stupid but I'm not actually dependent. But that will be up to him.

I've read several threads here, but many go back prior to 2020 so I seek more current info. Especially from those who may have firsthand experience as to how FAA handles this situation these days. I suppose it's a good omen that I'm not hearing or reading much about this, but I'm not counting on it.

 

[Lindberg]

I'll be discussing the matter with my PCP before I fly again as well. I can share my eval with him (and successful completion of EI program with UA verification) and my experience with him is that likely he'll concur I did something bad & stupid but I'm not actually dependent. But that will be up to him.

It's just me, but I wouldn't go out of my way to flag anything to my PCP re Basic. I'm not even sure if my PCP read my half of the CMEC or just relied on the fact that he knows my entire medical history and does a much more comprehensive exam of me twice a year.

 

[bbchien]

When you renew your Basic you re-release your NDR record. If you refuse to deal with the letter FAA sends you, you get this letter.....they will action your pilot's license.

Time to stop drinking....

 

[Lindberg]

When you renew your Basic you re-release your NDR record. If you refuse to deal with the letter FAA sends you, you get this letter.....they will action your pilot's license.

Time to stop drinking....

Which one of those requirements does he not meet?

 

[bbchien]

Upon next Basic, FAA will see the the DUI, demand the DUI report, a personal statement, and a DMV record. It's downhill from there.

This is why BASIC was designed in congress to force the release of the NDR each time (4th yearly). The congresscritters recognized that ther ehad dto be a mechism to keep the durnks out of the air. this is how it works. Remember alcoholism is one of the 15 universally grounding medical conditions irrespective of third, Second, or First or BASIC, levels of medical. So they will demand enough to make that determination.

Ignore their certified letter, and they revoke your PILOT cert, the only certificate you have left. Basic is not an "you-can-be-an-alcoholilc" get out of jail free, card.

 

[Dana]

Remember alcoholism is one of the 15 universally grounding medical conditions irrespective of third, Second, or First or BASIC, levels of medical.

So what about Sport Pilot (MOSAIC was mentioned above)?

 

[bonefishpete]

So OP is just as screwed as if He had had a First Class medical?
I Keep drumming into my son how bad a DUI can be.

 

[Jon Wilder]

So what about Sport Pilot (MOSAIC was mentioned above)?

If you’re grounded for any class of medical or ineligibile for Basic, you’re ineligible for Sport Pilot as well. As Dr Bruce said, they’ll revoke the pilot certificate.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Upon next Basic, FAA will see the the DUI, demand the DUI report, a personal statement, and a DMV record. It's downhill from there.

This is why BASIC was designed in congress to force the release of the NDR each time (4th yearly). The congresscritters recognized that ther ehad dto be a mechism to keep the durnks out of the air. this is how it works. Remember alcoholism is one of the 15 universally grounding medical conditions irrespective of third, Second, or First or BASIC, levels of medical. So they will demand enough to make that determination.

Ignore their certified letter, and they revoke your PILOT cert, the only certificate you have left. Basic is not an "you-can-be-an-alcoholilc" get out of jail free, card.

Why wait until the next Basic? Why not act on the 61.15 report?

 

[bbchien]

….why, because “ shucking and dutching, is what humans do……

Rocko doesn’t realize that he will eventually have to face the music. But not if he retires from certificated aviation at the end of his current basic.

That was by design, as well.

 

[Rocko]

Upon next Basic, FAA will see the the DUI, demand the DUI report, a personal statement, and a DMV record. It's downhill from there.

This is why BASIC was designed in congress to force the release of the NDR each time (4th yearly). The congresscritters recognized that ther ehad dto be a mechism to keep the durnks out of the air. this is how it works. Remember alcoholism is one of the 15 universally grounding medical conditions irrespective of third, Second, or First or BASIC, levels of medical. So they will demand enough to make that determination.

Ignore their certified letter, and they revoke your PILOT cert, the only certificate you have left. Basic is not an "you-can-be-an-alcoholilc" get out of jail free, card.

Thank you. That's what I've been trying to confirm and I've had inconsistent responses regarding the process. (My friendly neighborhood HIMS AME reported that he hasn't had any former BM pilots come in seeking DUI SI's, etc.)

I was aware that they check NDR when you complete the BM course. I wasn't sure if AMCD demands additional info (certified letter) as standard part of the BM process like a Part 67 medical cert, or if they left that to you and your PCP to comply with 68.9. They had already sent me a weirdly worded (non-certified) letter that I didn't have a medical application on file but they were keeping "documents" (apparently received from Investigations branch) on file if I choose to apply for a medical certificate in the future. But they said nothing about BM.

 

[Rocko]

Which one of those requirements does he not meet?

Based on the sample letter Dr. Chien posted, that's partly why I've been holding off to complete the online course until I verify what's in my NDR. Particularly that I now hold a valid DL again (I meet all the other eligibility criteria for 61.113- No suspended/revoked medical cert, etc.)

However, he just stated that the NDR check resulting from the BM online course triggers them to demand "additional information" (68.11) like they would for a Part 67 med certificate holder/applicant. And they could suspend/revoke my pilot cert if I failed to comply with that demand. So I don't want to open that can of worms.

 

[wellknow]

God, the arrogance. That rarely works out well.

 

[Rocko]

….why, because “ shucking and dutching, is what humans do……

Rocko doesn’t realize that he will eventually have to face the music. But not if he retires from certificated aviation at the end of his current basic.

That was by design, as well.

I want to understand the process better before pushing another "button" in order to evaluate my options (limited they may be) and/or next actions. Thank you for responding.

 

[bbchien]

God, the arrogance. That rarely works out well.

Well…alcohol does change one’s person and one’s perception(s), (particularly of alcohol itself)…

That’s why it’s such a formidable opponent….

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

Well…alcohol does change one’s person and one’s perception(s), (particularly of alcohol itself)…

That’s why it’s such a formidable opponent….

Hubris comes in many forms and has many causes.

 

[Lindberg]

Based on the sample letter Dr. Chien posted, that's partly why I've been holding off to complete the online course until I verify what's in my NDR. Particularly that I now hold a valid DL again (I meet all the other eligibility criteria for 61.113- No suspended/revoked medical cert, etc.)

Read that letter again. It doesn't say anything you don't already know:

If you do not meet these requirements, you may not operate under BasicMed.

Now if they were to request additional information, and they determined that you meet the definition of dependency, that would be entirely different.

 

[flyingron]

Posters are reminded that the anonymous posting feature of this forum is to allow people to request information without exposing their identity, not to take anonymous pot shots at other posters. Please see the Rules of Conduct at the bottom of every page here.

 

[Rocko]

Read that letter again. It doesn't say anything you don't already know:

Now if they were to request additional information, and they determined that you meet the definition of dependency, that would be entirely different.

Thanks. Understood. The responses I've received (AOPA and my local HIMS AME) were that they could demand additional info per 68.11. But they didn't think it was likely unless there was something more "credible or urgent" than a single (and properly reported) NDR hit. And they report they haven't had any actual calls from BM pilots in that situation.

But if I read Dr. Chien's response correctly, they will demand additional info per 68.11 as part of the standard BM process similar as they would for a pilot who holds a Part 67 medical cert. This is part of what I've been trying to ascertain about their process. They "could" or they "will?"

Better to know that up front before receiving a certified letter demanding a response at peril of my pilot cert.

 

[Rocko]

It's just me, but I wouldn't go out of my way to flag anything to my PCP re Basic. I'm not even sure if my PCP read my half of the CMEC or just relied on the fact that he knows my entire medical history and does a much more comprehensive exam of me twice a year.

Yes. I was thinking primarily within the context of 61.53 and 68.9. My evaluation did not result in a clinical diagnosis of substance dependence (68.9). But my PCP is the "state licensed physician" who signs off my CMEC. As it happens, he's a former AME so he knows the drill. So my "gut" is that I want him on board with that eval result if questions were to arise. More so since I'm in the hot seat right now.

I was rather hoping that unless there was something especially noteworthy about my scenario (tongue in cheek in my initial post), the way 68.9 is written FAA would be inclined to leave it between me and PCP, i.e. he wouldn't expose himself to consequences of signing me off with a suspected or diagnosed substance dependence so I'd have to get an SI in that case via my local HIMS AME. But Dr. Chien's response suggests otherwise (certified letter, et. al.) so I need to take that into consideration.

 

[midlifeflyer]

….why, because “ shucking and dutching, is what humans do……

Rocko doesn’t realize that he will eventually have to face the music. But not if he retires from certificated aviation at the end of his current basic.

That was by design, as well.

If this was responding to my question, I was referring to the FAA, not the pilot.

 

[bbchien]

If this was responding to my question, I was referring to the FAA, not the pilot.

Mark, that's about 10 pay grades above me and is an admin. decision. The 61.15 report triggers a referral to the medical branch but their response is the ususal letter that he got. I think the reason it is the way it is, is it's a stimulus-->response sort of thing....medical branch handles it if they airman has a 3rd class or wnd or 1st.

But the responsibility for the response to a Basic Holder with a DUI is done from the airman branch, with input from the medical guy. I think this was a "hot potato" and "don't involve us" from the start.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Mark, that's about 10 pay grades above me and is an admin. decision. The 61.15 report triggers a referral to the medical branch but their response is the ususal letter that he got. I think the reason it is the way it is, is it's a stimulus-->response sort of thing....medical branch handles it if they airman has a 3rd class or wnd or 1st.

But the responsibility for the response to a Basic Holder with a DUI is done from the airman branch, with input from the medical guy. I think this was a "hot potato" and "don't involve us" from the start.

Thanks, Bruce.

 

[LurkingAndCurious]

So what can the FAA do except ask for info they can’t do anything with?


As long as he send info to security about the health of his drivers license, and whatever other misc stuff about his traffic ticket the FAA asks for, that’s a wrap from how I’m reading this

If the practicing substance professional types said he doesn’t have a medical issue, his basic med guy says he doesn’t have an issue, what can the FAA do?


Tried to join your site, but you don’t accept gmail addresses…which is what most you get people have

 

[flyingron]

[NOTE] We accept gmail addresses just fine. Send support@pilotsofamerica.com your address and the user name you attempted to register with and I'll look into what the problem is. Most likely your IP address hit something that is in one of the spam databases.

 

[Rocko]

Mark, that's about 10 pay grades above me and is an admin. decision. The 61.15 report triggers a referral to the medical branch but their response is the ususal letter that he got. I think the reason it is the way it is, is it's a stimulus-->response sort of thing....medical branch handles it if they airman has a 3rd class or wnd or 1st.

But the responsibility for the response to a Basic Holder with a DUI is done from the airman branch, with input from the medical guy. I think this was a "hot potato" and "don't involve us" from the start.

So, to recap & verify that my understanding is correct- FAA's standard process for BM pilots who report DUI's in compliance with 61.15:

-Investigations branch sends receipt confirmation letter (certified mail) to reporting pilot, and notifies AMCD (providing "documents").

-AMCD sends letter (noncertified mail) to pilot that they have received "documents," that there is no medical app currently in the system, and that if pilot chooses to apply in the future he must bring DUI info to AME and submit medical app.

-Pilot completes Basic Med online course (including date and PCP info for current CMEC). Airman Cert branch checks 61.113 eligibility criteria, including NDR check. (NDR check shows any hits within last 3 years; pilot DL status appears as "Licensed" if DL has been reinstated, "Not Eligible" if DL has not been reinstated.)

-Airman Cert branch consults with AMCD(?)

-For all BM pilots with an NDR hit, Airman Cert branch sends (certified mail) letter to pilot demanding "additional info" per 68.11. (Same info as demanded from pilot who holds Part 67 medical certificate? Do you have an example of such letter sent to a BM pilot?)

*Pilot complies with request: Airman Cert branch and/or AMCD makes determination if pilot is still eligible to operate under 61.113.

*Pilot doesn't comply with request: Airman Cert branch suspends/revokes pilot cert (Title 49 referenced within 68.11).

*If pilot is determined to be ineligible to operate under 61.113, Airman Cert branch sends (noncertified mail) "boilerplate" letter advising pilot he appears to not meet one or more eligibility criteria for 61.113 (list enclosed within letter); Be sure to comply with all of said criteria, or that a medical certificate per 61.23 would be required to fly; And that to knowingly fly without a medical certificate can result in suspension/revocation of your pilot cert.

Have I got this correct? And you've worked with BM pilots who came to you for SI's to comply with 68.9 as a result? Thank you.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

So, to recap & verify that my understanding is correct- FAA's standard process for BM pilots who report DUI's in compliance with 61.15:

-Investigations branch sends receipt confirmation letter (certified mail) to reporting pilot, and notifies AMCD (providing "documents").

-AMCD sends letter (noncertified mail) to pilot that they have received "documents," that there is no medical app currently in the system, and that if pilot chooses to apply in the future he must bring DUI info to AME and submit medical app.

-Pilot completes Basic Med online course (including date and PCP info for current CMEC). Airman Cert branch checks 61.113 eligibility criteria, including NDR check. (NDR check shows any hits within last 3 years; pilot DL status appears as "Licensed" if DL has been reinstated, "Not Eligible" if DL has not been reinstated.)

-Airman Cert branch consults with AMCD(?)

-For all BM pilots with an NDR hit, Airman Cert branch sends (certified mail) letter to pilot demanding "additional info" per 68.11. (Same info as demanded from pilot who holds Part 67 medical certificate? Do you have an example of such letter sent to a BM pilot?)

*Pilot complies with request: Airman Cert branch and/or AMCD makes determination if pilot is still eligible to operate under 61.113.

*Pilot doesn't comply with request: Airman Cert branch suspends/revokes pilot cert (Title 49 referenced within 68.11).

*If pilot is determined to be ineligible to operate under 61.113, Airman Cert branch sends (noncertified mail) "boilerplate" letter advising pilot he appears to not meet one or more eligibility criteria for 61.113 (list enclosed within letter); Be sure to comply with all of said criteria, or that a medical certificate per 61.23 would be required to fly; And that to knowingly fly without a medical certificate can result in suspension/revocation of your pilot cert.

Have I got this correct? And you've worked with BM pilots who came to you for SI's to comply with 68.9 as a result? Thank you.

My brain hurts…