Almost VFR into IMC, and lost.

[SkyHog]

Here's the story...long, embarrassing, and scary.

The day started off horrible to begin with. I set my alarm for 4:30 and planned to be off the ground by 6 at the lastest. Unfortunately, I set the alarm for 4:30 PM not AM, so I didn't wake up until close to 6. I wake up to find a message on my phone about the plane being in 100hr and not being available. I then drove to the airport with my friend who was coming with me and found that we could get another plane. This plane had a GPS, but it didn't appear to work.

The problem is that by this point, the weather had started to suck. Weather brief revealed that our 3000 ft cielings would be about 500ft a little to the west, but the tops were around 8000-9000MSL. So I planned to fly east until the cieling opened, and go on top to the west until out of the weather (which shouldn't have been too far).

I got on top and found that opening like I expected and headed west over the tops of the clouds (spectacular view - my passenger got pics, I'll post them). The problem was that I was having to constantly climb to keep from getting too close to the cloud tops. When I hit 12,000 feet, I saw that I would soon need to use oxygen (we're both smokers, so that concerned me too), so I made the decision to cancel, go back to the hole (which was HUGE - like 30 miles if not bigger) and head back to Albuquerque.

The hole didn't appear. At this point, we were northeast of Santa Fe, looking for the end of the clouds. I called up flight watch to see if they could help (since I was getting a bit concerned). They said that just east of Las Vegas, they'd start to clear up, but if I headed north, I could theoretically get to the north end above Taos and head to the La Veta pass and find an airport there.

I'm not familiar with that route, and clouds+mountains scare me, so I figured I'd head east of Las Vegas, where cielings were reported as 1500 broken.

I found the gap, headed down to find that that 1500 broken must have been RIGHT over the airport, because I was now essentially scud running, and the hole behind me started to close on me. I looked over at my passenger, who was having a blast (innocence....sigh), and started getting ****ed that I would let myself get him into this situation. Doing it to myself is one thing, but this was an unknowing passenger on his first ride.

So I headed towards the LVS VOR which is colocated with the Las Vegas airport. But wait, that's weird, its showing that I need to go West. So i tune in the Anton Chico VOR to cross check my position on the other VOR. Its showing West also. WTH? That's not possible, unless I am WAAAAY east of course. I tried to get that stupid GPS to work, but alas, I couldn't.

I started looking around for a city or something to identify where I was, but there was nothing but very large looking mountains in all directions. I decided to trust that the VORs were correct, and flew West toward the VOR.

I then began to second guess myself, and gave in and confessed. "Albuquerque Center, Skyhawk 73298 is lost in low, marginal VFR, 7,200 ft. Last known position was east of Las Vegas VOR."

"I'm sorry 298, you are too low for radar contact, can you climb?"

"No, if I climb, I'll be IMC."

"Standby, 298"

Just then, a road, a big road appeared below me. Could this be I-25, I asked myself. There's railroad tracks along the side of it. The sectional shows that there are railroad tracks there. This must be I-25. But now the question was, where around I-25 was I? I decided to follow the road eastbound (which confused me, since I was sure it was I-25) and told ABQ Center that I believed I was over I25 at some point. The cloud bases went up slightly, so I climbed as much as possible while staying legal.

At this point, both CDIs were still indicating that I needed to go east to get to their perspective VORs. Albuquerque Center comes on, and says "73298, radar contact. Suggest heading 355 to Las Vegas Airport."

I turned 355 and started that way, still very low to the ground. At this point, An American Airlines flight (I don't remember the number) started relaying transmissions from the controller as I was beyond mountains that blocked my receipt of his messages.

I kept flying 355 (although the needle for the LVS VOR still showed I needed to go to 090 to get there), and the stupid GPS popped up. It showed me 10 miles from the Las Vegas VOR (I later found out that it automatically gives distance from the closest VOR). The problem was that I still didn't see the airport.

The American Airlines flight told me "Center says that the airport is 1 o'clock, 8 miles." Sure enough, that's what the GPS said also. The airport didn't pop into view until I was about 3 miles away. At that point, I thanked the American Airlines flight and told him to please relay my thanks to Center, was relayed to change to advisory and squawk VFR, and I complied.

I then landed uneventfully at KLVS.

This is the most disturbing story I've ever told. It hurts me to say that I was STUPID enough to get into this situation, and my green-ness certainly showed through. Right now, I am half torn between taking this as a sign that I REALLY need to get my IR, and just admitting that I evidentally don't have what it takes to be a pilot. My judgment yesterday confounds me. I wouldn't call it "get-there-itis" because I was positive at the get go that this would be a simple flight, and I felt no pressure to complete it.

I'm so damn upset with myself right now, I don't think anyone understands.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Nick, FWIW, you are a good pilot. You made a mistake but you recovered cleanly and nicely. OTOH, a bad pilot would have kept going over the clouds, climbing without oxygen until the aircraft hit the service ceiling and then discovered the retreat path was equally blocked and been forced into IMC, or climbed until hypoxia took its toll. You realized the plan wouldn't work and went to Plan B. You worked the system and got yourself on the ground safely. Good job.

BTW, I suspect the VORs were telling you the truth about the station they were tracking. Always check the Morse code ident.

If you want to kick yourself at all, scratch "VFR over the top" from your list of options until you get the instrument rating.

 

[Richard]

Nick, you did alright. As for folks not understanding, believe me, many do understand, myself included. I still give you an A+ for effort.

 

[ScottM]

Good job getting out of it. Your story shows how easy it is to make a couple little or minor poor judgements and quickly get in over your head. But your quick confession saved your bacon and that was the right thing to do!

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Nick, FWIW, you are a good pilot. You made a mistake but you recovered cleanly and nicely. OTOH, a bad pilot would have kept going over the clouds, climbing without oxygen until the aircraft hit the service ceiling and then discovered the retreat path was equally blocked and been forced into IMC, or climbed until hypoxia took its toll. You realized the plan wouldn't work and went to Plan B. You worked the system and got yourself on the ground safely. Good job.

Nick-

I agree completely with with Ed.

"Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement."

You recovered will from the initial decision. You used all the resource you had to assist. You never ran out of "outs".

FWIW, yesterday's weather was screwed up in Socal as well. The forecast for the afternoon was completely blown. I got our plane out of the shop late in the afternoon, and had to do a required test flight (rigging adjustments were performed). After just about 15 minutes in the air, I returned to Corona, and the winds had started to howl, and I could see the ceilings dropping to the west. I then had to decide to if I wanted to fly back to Fullerton. I called the ATIS and ASOS #s at and near FUL, and got a new wx brief. My eyes were telling me something different than the briefer, and my visual didn't really agree with the ASOS/ATIS either, but I figured it was a short flight (~20 miles) that I'd done many times before.

I managed to complete the flight VFR, but was very close to legal minimums. I don't like flying over crowded urban terrain at 1000' AGL, but I had to to stay VFR. My out was that I was IFR current, and had the approach plate at the ready. I almost had to deviate from ATC instruction, because they had given me a vector (VFR) for traffic spacing, and another <30 seconds on that heading would have had me right beneath a cloud deck.

The IFR rating is great to have, but it has severe limitations, especially in the southwest. It works for dealing with marine layer conditions, but minimum-enroute altitudes, icing and aircraft service-ceilings must be very strongly considered. You may want to study how yesterday's flight would have gone if you were IFR. You might find that it wouldn't have worked that way either.

Safe skies,
Jeff

 

[wsuffa]

Nick,

You learned something. And you did OK. I think you're a fine pilot, you exercised a lot of judgement by turning around, by calling and asking for help, and by getting down safely.

I'm betting that you won't readily fly VFR over the top again, at least not until you get your IR.

bill

 

[gismo]

What Ed said. One of the big problems with VFR over solid clouds is that you just can't tell if the hole you came up through and the hole you plan to drop through remain. Holes can close up alarmingly fast. In addition, you would be way over your head if you had any kind of problem with the airplane when you are beyond sight of a way back down.

 

[Lance F]

Great post, Nick. I COMPLETELY understand how you feel. I got myself stuck on top with building cu's suckering me higher and higher. I found one hole I was able to spiral down, definitely without VFR cloud clearances. I was shaking badly.

My next flight was the first one in an accelerated IFR training program.

 

[Michael]

Nick, I agree with the others. First you did good. A good pilot knows when he messed up and works to not do that again. A bad pilot wouldnt think that was a big deal and keep doing those types of things until circumstances caught up with him.
You learned something new, and also found a new minimum you can feel comfortable with. somewhere along your flight you felt comfortable. thats your comfort zone. your minimums.
I am glad everything worked out for you. BTW....how were the winds in the mountains?

Michael

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Nick,

I don't understand...

You're still thinking IF to go for your IFR ?
You done pretty good anyway, with a little luck.

 

[Brian Austin]

Nick, I hope that if I ever find myself with all kinds of things going wrong, I handle it as well as you did. Getting from A to B is the easy part for a pilot. Handling the screwy things that pop up is why we train like we do. You did great!

 

[SkyHog]

first off - thank you to everyone for your support. It makes me feel a little better, but I still feel as though I should not have been in that situation to begin with.

Michael - the winds in the mountains were pretty calm, I'm assuming because the winds were blowing into the mountains, not out of them.

Mr. Krall - the point behind whether or not I get my IR is whether or not I decide to continue to fly. While other people here are making points that I did well, I don't feel that I did, and in fact, I feel like I made some poor decisions And by the way, I don't consider it a little luck - I consider it a LOT of luck.

Mr. Oslick - on this day, I can almost guarantee that the IR would have gotten me through, if nothing else, it would have gotten me down to an airport without the fear and being lost. Turns out, watching the weather channel, about 6 miles northeast of us was CAVU and remained that way all the way into Wyoming.

To everyone that pointed it out - I've flown VFR over the top on many occasions, but only when I know that there is a defined end to the overcast. I thought that existed this day, but it turns out to be worse than the briefer suggested. And I now agree - VFR over the Top for me will only be done as "VFR on the Top" meaning I have my IR next time I attempt it.

Still embarrassed, still have the tail tucked. Thanks for the encouragement.

 

[jesse]

A good example of why I want to get my IR, hopefully by spring.

 

[poadeleted3]

Nick, whether or not you continue to fly is certainly up to you, but do please bear in mind that getting your PPL doesn't mean you know it all. We're both pretty new pilots, and we're both going to make mistakes. You made mistakes, and you dealt with them as safely as you could. You weren't hot dogging, and when the chips were down, you flew your plane and got your passenger safely on the ground. I've certainly made some mistakes since I got my license, but when I make mine I do it with my family in the plane. That's pressure, and I still feel it on every flight. It's brought a fear into my flying that wasn't there before, but I'm dealing with it. The fear will go away, but I certainly hope the pressure never does. If it does, that's when people get careless.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

You successfully stayed in the "safe" realm of Aviation which is the flying ...the dangerous part is the crashing.

 

[bharris]

Here's the story...long, embarrassing, and scary.

...Scary stuff...

Right now, I am half torn between taking this as a sign that I REALLY need to get my IR, and just admitting that I evidentally don't have what it takes to be a pilot. My judgment yesterday confounds me. I wouldn't call it "get-there-itis" because I was positive at the get go that this would be a simple flight, and I felt no pressure to complete it.

I'm so damn upset with myself right now, I don't think anyone understands.

Thanks for your story. We all need to be reminded how easy it is to get "sucked in."

You just had a bit of overconfidence. I had more than one similar experience before I decided to get my IR.

I would recommend that you get your IR. As soon as you start work on it, you will begin to get a real appreciation of the kinds of trouble you can get into in marginal conditions.

Now, anytime I even have a suspicion that I could get into marginal conditions, I file IFR, using all of the planning rigor that I would if the whole route was forecast IMC. You can always cancel if its CAVU, but if you run into unexpected low ceilings, you are mentally prepared to deal with them.

 

[kath]

Nick, I admire the fact that you called up ATC and asked for help. I have often wondered what this would be like, whether I would hesitate too long to do this if I were in an urgent situation. "Why, it would be so embarrassing." But what a silly reason that is to not this necessary step to get one's self and plane on the ground safely! I wonder how many accidents could be avoided if more pilots could swallow their pride and holler for help? I hope I'll remember your story when it comes time for me to holler on the radio.

--Kath

 

[poadeleted3]

BTW, if you haven't filed a NASA ASRS report, it might be a good thing to do. People forget that the real purpose of that program is to provide a way for other pilots to learn from each other, and I guarantee you aren't the first person to do what you did. Sharing the story there may help someone else avoid the same situation.

 

[Bill]

Right now, I am half torn between taking this as a sign that I REALLY need to get my IR, and just admitting that I evidentally don't have what it takes to be a pilot.

Nick, I think the former, as you did a great job using resources to come to a good conclusion. Call your instructor and start that IR!

My flight home from Gastons in June was horrible (never really posted the details), and I called my instructor the very next day to arrange my first IR lesson.

BZ!

 

[SkyHog]

BTW, if you haven't filed a NASA ASRS report, it might be a good thing to do. People forget that the real purpose of that program is to provide a way for other pilots to learn from each other, and I guarantee you aren't the first person to do what you did. Sharing the story there may help someone else avoid the same situation.

way ahead of ya Joe! I keep a form in my flight bag, and since there is abolutely NOTHING to do in Las Vegas, NM, I filled the form out in the hotel room.

Never thought I'd need it...sigh.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

way ahead of ya Joe! I keep a form in my flight bag, and since there is abolutely NOTHING to do in Las Vegas, NM, I filled the form out in the hotel room.

Never thought I'd need it...sigh.

I didn't have a lawyer go over your story but, if you didn't do anything against the FARs or the law, consider that a NASA form offers protection only once every five (5) years, last I knew so, consider whether your battle with the weather is worth filing to NASA this time ?

Just a thought.

 

[Missa]

I didn't have a lawyer go over your story but, if you didn't do anything against the FARs or the law, consider that a NASA form offers protection only once every five (5) years, last I knew so, consider whether your battle with the weather is worth filing to NASA this time ?

Just a thought.

You may only be able to use the protection once every 5 years, but that doesn't limit you on how many incidences you fill out the form for. Plus Joe is right, it's suppose to be a learning tool and a gauge on safety, not just a 'get out of jail free' card.

Good Job Nick! I'm glad to hear you got down in one piece. I knew even before reading your story that I'm not comfortable with VFR over the top without the IR... I've only gone VFR over the top once. I knew that the weather was clear to the north but that wasn't the real deciding factor in going over the top. My right seat passenger was a CFII so I had the out of giving over PIC to her if we ran into trouble. I don't think I would have gone without.

Don't quit! (Flying, do quit smoking!) You may feel really bad about your decisions, but it sounds like you have already changed your thinking for the future. A good pilot is always learning, and it sounds like you are. Go get the IR, I'll race you... I really need mine too.

Missa

 

[grattonja]

You fly, you learn. I find that is true every time I climb into the left seat (or the front seat in the Champ, boy do I learn there). You got some good "learnin'" on that trip. You did some things you won't do again. I have had several trips that have resulted in me swearing off some particular thing.

I highly recommend the IR. Out east here, it is practically mandatory if you intend to travel frequently with the plane. That isn't so true out where you are, but it surely gives you many more options, not the least of which is legally letting you down through that overcast if need be.

Plus, you'll never be as afraid of those clouds once you know you have the training and capacity to fly in them. At least, it has had that impact for me.

Jim G

 

[ejensen]

Glad you're OK, Nick. Sounds like big time pucker.

I flew from Durango to Fort Collins yesterday viw Creede and Salida. Just on the north edge of your weather. The entired San Luis Valley was covered with low clouds/ fogs so Alamosa was not an option. La Veta to Pueblo would have worked as ATC said but that a long flight.

I'm not so sure IR would have helped. Was it freezing around Las Vegas? We looked at IFR out of Durango but there was icing forcast at the MEAs and below. Approach may have been below the freezing level.

Regarding the winds. Almost calm accross the Colorado mtns at all altitudes. Crisp and clear. An absolute beautiful day to fly in the mountains.

 

[Greebo]

Scary experience Nick - but you're all the wiser for it! Whats most important, as others have said, is that 1) you lived through it, in no small part because you were willing to toss the ego and call for help, and 2) you learned from it.

Don't give up flying over it - if you're still thinking about that - the fact that you did #1 and are capable of #2 will make you an ever improving pilot, and that's the kind you want to be.

 

[SkyHog]

I didn't have a lawyer go over your story but, if you didn't do anything against the FARs or the law, consider that a NASA form offers protection only once every five (5) years, last I knew so, consider whether your battle with the weather is worth filing to NASA this time ?

Just a thought.

The funny thing is, Mr. Krall, I believe to heavily in the ASRS program, that I personally think that even without the get out of jail free aspect of it people should report everything to it.

My understanding, though, is that it only protects once every 5 years, and since I am fairly sure that I did nothing illegal, this wouldn't count as my 1 time. But even if it did, I'd still file the form. I'm not big on getting away with breaking the law anyways.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

The funny thing is, Mr. Krall, I believe to heavily in the ASRS program, that I personally think that even without the get out of jail free aspect of it people should report everything to it.

My understanding, though, is that it only protects once every 5 years, and since I am fairly sure that I did nothing illegal, this wouldn't count as my 1 time. But even if it did, I'd still file the form. I'm not big on getting away with breaking the law anyways.

Yeah, I believe in the NASA ASRS too, (I just didn't know all the details, since it doesn't come up that much for me) and most all of the other safety programs out there. However hypothetically speaking, if it were to spend my 5 year get out of jail ticket* for any reason, I wouldn't use it for such a more or less garden variety type of scenario as you experienced because it has been written of so many times before and will continue to happen and to be written of ad infinitum in many and various venues -most more widely read than the NASA ASRS safety reports.

*BTW:
I don't think any immunity is allowed through the NASA program for CFIs. ;>(

 

[drhunt]

Nick,

Good job on getting down safely. While the event was scary, you tested your skills and your judgement and came out ahead from the experience. As Jeff said, good judgement comes from experience and your experience is an investment in becoming a better pilot...hang on and get your IFR rating.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted.

You just got a bucketfull ... use it wisely.

Brett

 

[Skip Miller]

You may only be able to use the protection once every 5 years, but that doesn't limit you on how many incidences you fill out the form for.

Missa is right. I've heard this incorrect information from several other pilots so I thought it would be worth emphasizing: There is no limit on the number of ASRS forms you can - or should - file.

If and when you get the letter from the FAA you can decide whether it is worth it to pull your ASRS receipt out of your flight bag, or if you would rather take the heat and save your ASRS forgiveness for a later, more serious infraction. File them early and often, remembering that there is a time limit within which you must file or your ASRS receipt is invalid.

Better would be to fly so you don't need one.... but stuff happens!

-Skip

 

[gismo]

The funny thing is, Mr. Krall, I believe to heavily in the ASRS program, that I personally think that even without the get out of jail free aspect of it people should report everything to it.

My understanding, though, is that it only protects once every 5 years, and since I am fairly sure that I did nothing illegal, this wouldn't count as my 1 time. But even if it did, I'd still file the form. I'm not big on getting away with breaking the law anyways.

As was posted earlier, there's no limit on how many times you file, and NASA (and I) prefer that you file anytime you have an "experiencee" worth sharing whether or not any violations were involved. The ability to escape sanctions is simply one of the incentives for pilots to file, and that aspect can only be used occasionally. The FAA is prohibited by law from using ASRS filings to pursue any complaint whether or not you invoke your escape clause. And just because you filed doesn't mean you have to use the filing to avoid a sanction, that's totally your choice after the FAA comes calling. So AFaIK there's simply no downside to filing as often as you want.

 

[gismo]

*BTW:
I don't think any immunity is allowed through the NASA program for CFIs. ;>(

I'm pretty sure the ASRS applies to any and all sanctions against pilots, including when acting as a CFI.

 

[EdFred]

Wow Nick, you are dumb.

Just kidding.

Since you linked to it, I figured I'd give it a little Migaldi lovin and bring it back from the dead for others that may not have had a chance to read it. It's a good lesson.

 

[steingar]

Another good lesson. You may not file a NASA form to stave off enforcement action if there is any sort of violation on your record. Those tend to stay for 5 years. If you have a violation and "save" your NASA get-out-of-jail-free card for a rainy day, you may not be able to use it on your next infraction should the first one still be on your record.

 

[ScottM]

I figured I'd give it a little Migaldi lovin .

 

[Jack Spectre]

I see this is a 4 year old thread that got resurrected (which is good, it was a good lesson).

Did Nick ever get his IR or did he quit flying?

 

[SkyHog]

I see this is a 4 year old thread that got resurrected (which is good, it was a good lesson).

Did Nick ever get his IR or did he quit flying?

Nick still has not gotten his IR, nor did he quit flying. Instead, he spent a good chunk of time learning a lot of things he should have known before he tried anything crazy like "VFR Over the Top" again.

Nick is slowly working towards his IR, but he doesn't see it as being 100% necessary for the type of flying he generally does.

 

[MikePapa]

Wow, that's really dumb. That could never happen to me.

Well, except for this one time...

 

[EdFred]

What happens Behind Hoppy's stays behind Hoppy's.

 

[gprellwitz]

Nick still has not gotten his IR, nor did he quit flying. Instead, he spent a good chunk of time learning a lot of things he should have known before he tried anything crazy like "VFR Over the Top" again.

Nick is slowly working towards his IR, but he doesn't see it as being 100% necessary for the type of flying he generally does.

And Missa doesn't have her IR yet either, so the race is STILL ON!

I'm offering a 6-pack to whichever gets theirs first!