Almost VFR into IMC, and lost.

gprellwitz said:
And Missa doesn't have her IR yet either, so the race is STILL ON!

:idea:I'm offering a 6-pack to whichever gets theirs first!
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A couple of our members are perm. students and don't even have their PP yet after several years...

I'll let 'em out themselves (you know who you are)...
 
I do see this as a reson why the 3 hours of simulated instrument time that is part of your PP should stress how to descent below clouds in a emergency. It seems the most common flight error is Vfr into IMC, then lost control. Being able to not lose it during a descent will not save you if there is nothing but dirt below the clouds but we should be teaching people how to go thru your average layer of 2-4k feet to clear air below. I think it's as important as recovery and emergency landings. The 180 turn is a important thing as well but often times it seems that people get trapped in or above clouds and they should have a idea of what to do in that case.
 
I musta missed this the first time.

Ya done good, Nick. I would hope I would do as well, but I got scared of going over anything when I was a cocky pre-PPL student on one of my long XCs (the one where I met Bruce).
 
Missa said:
Go get the IR, I'll race you... I really need mine too. :yes:
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wsuffa said:
gprellwitz said:
And Missa doesn't have her IR yet either, so the race is STILL ON!

:idea:I'm offering a 6-pack to whichever gets theirs first!
Click to expand...

A couple of our members are perm. students and don't even have their PP yet after several years...

I'll let 'em out themselves (you know who you are)...
Click to expand...
Yes, but Missa started the race! :)
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
I didn't have a lawyer go over your story but, if you didn't do anything against the FARs or the law, consider that a NASA form offers protection only once every five (5) years, last I knew so, consider whether your battle with the weather is worth filing to NASA this time ?

Just a thought.
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Let's not forget, ASRS's primary purpose is not to be a "Get out of jail free card", it's to gather "lessons-learned" from bad situations.

Yes, you can use it for waiver of sanction once every 5 years, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't file it whenever a bad situation occurs, regarless of whether FARs wer violated.

If you're never called on a FAR violation, that filing does not count against you for the once in 5...only if the FAA takes action and you play it to waive sanction does it count for that.

File the ASRS, let others who don't read this board learn from your chain-of-events too.

BTW, good job getting yourself out of a potentially more serious situation,:yes:
 
JeffDG said:
File the ASRS, let others who don't read this board learn from your chain-of-events too.
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In fact, mention this board in the ASRS so they can learn about the board, too! :yes: :)

(And yes, Nick, I think you made some good decisions there.)
 
jtheune said:
I do see this as a reson why the 3 hours of simulated instrument time that is part of your PP should stress how to descent below clouds in a emergency. It seems the most common flight error is Vfr into IMC, then lost control. Being able to not lose it during a descent will not save you if there is nothing but dirt below the clouds but we should be teaching people how to go thru your average layer of 2-4k feet to clear air below. I think it's as important as recovery and emergency landings. The 180 turn is a important thing as well but often times it seems that people get trapped in or above clouds and they should have a idea of what to do in that case.
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I think it was in AOPA Flight Training, but there was an article that questioned the wisdom of teaching PP students to always do the 180. His basic premise was that the person caught in IMC should first: control the plane, dial 7700 (ATC will immediately clear your path of IFR traffic), climb above the MSA on the sectional (so you don't run into any cumulogranite), and proceed from there. He argued that it's just as likely you'll pop out of the cloud a few miles ahead or as you climb as turning around.

Not sure I agree, but it was well thought through
 
SkyHog said:
Here's the story...long, embarrassing, and scary.

The day started off horrible to begin with. I set my alarm for 4:30 and planned to be off the ground by 6 at the lastest. Unfortunately, I set the alarm for 4:30 PM not AM, so I didn't wake up until close to 6. I wake up to find a message on my phone about the plane being in 100hr and not being available. I then drove to the airport with my friend who was coming with me and found that we could get another plane. This plane had a GPS, but it didn't appear to work.

The problem is that by this point, the weather had started to suck. Weather brief revealed that our 3000 ft cielings would be about 500ft a little to the west, but the tops were around 8000-9000MSL. So I planned to fly east until the cieling opened, and go on top to the west until out of the weather (which shouldn't have been too far).

I got on top and found that opening like I expected and headed west over the tops of the clouds (spectacular view - my passenger got pics, I'll post them). The problem was that I was having to constantly climb to keep from getting too close to the cloud tops. When I hit 12,000 feet, I saw that I would soon need to use oxygen (we're both smokers, so that concerned me too), so I made the decision to cancel, go back to the hole (which was HUGE - like 30 miles if not bigger) and head back to Albuquerque.

The hole didn't appear. At this point, we were northeast of Santa Fe, looking for the end of the clouds. I called up flight watch to see if they could help (since I was getting a bit concerned). They said that just east of Las Vegas, they'd start to clear up, but if I headed north, I could theoretically get to the north end above Taos and head to the La Veta pass and find an airport there.

I'm not familiar with that route, and clouds+mountains scare me, so I figured I'd head east of Las Vegas, where cielings were reported as 1500 broken.

I found the gap, headed down to find that that 1500 broken must have been RIGHT over the airport, because I was now essentially scud running, and the hole behind me started to close on me. I looked over at my passenger, who was having a blast (innocence....sigh), and started getting ****ed that I would let myself get him into this situation. Doing it to myself is one thing, but this was an unknowing passenger on his first ride.

So I headed towards the LVS VOR which is colocated with the Las Vegas airport. But wait, that's weird, its showing that I need to go West. So i tune in the Anton Chico VOR to cross check my position on the other VOR. Its showing West also. WTH? That's not possible, unless I am WAAAAY east of course. I tried to get that stupid GPS to work, but alas, I couldn't.

I started looking around for a city or something to identify where I was, but there was nothing but very large looking mountains in all directions. I decided to trust that the VORs were correct, and flew West toward the VOR.

I then began to second guess myself, and gave in and confessed. "Albuquerque Center, Skyhawk 73298 is lost in low, marginal VFR, 7,200 ft. Last known position was east of Las Vegas VOR."

"I'm sorry 298, you are too low for radar contact, can you climb?"

"No, if I climb, I'll be IMC."

"Standby, 298"

Just then, a road, a big road appeared below me. Could this be I-25, I asked myself. There's railroad tracks along the side of it. The sectional shows that there are railroad tracks there. This must be I-25. But now the question was, where around I-25 was I? I decided to follow the road eastbound (which confused me, since I was sure it was I-25) and told ABQ Center that I believed I was over I25 at some point. The cloud bases went up slightly, so I climbed as much as possible while staying legal.

At this point, both CDIs were still indicating that I needed to go east to get to their perspective VORs. Albuquerque Center comes on, and says "73298, radar contact. Suggest heading 355 to Las Vegas Airport."

I turned 355 and started that way, still very low to the ground. At this point, An American Airlines flight (I don't remember the number) started relaying transmissions from the controller as I was beyond mountains that blocked my receipt of his messages.

I kept flying 355 (although the needle for the LVS VOR still showed I needed to go to 090 to get there), and the stupid GPS popped up. It showed me 10 miles from the Las Vegas VOR (I later found out that it automatically gives distance from the closest VOR). The problem was that I still didn't see the airport.

The American Airlines flight told me "Center says that the airport is 1 o'clock, 8 miles." Sure enough, that's what the GPS said also. The airport didn't pop into view until I was about 3 miles away. At that point, I thanked the American Airlines flight and told him to please relay my thanks to Center, was relayed to change to advisory and squawk VFR, and I complied.

I then landed uneventfully at KLVS.

This is the most disturbing story I've ever told. It hurts me to say that I was STUPID enough to get into this situation, and my green-ness certainly showed through. Right now, I am half torn between taking this as a sign that I REALLY need to get my IR, and just admitting that I evidentally don't have what it takes to be a pilot. My judgment yesterday confounds me. I wouldn't call it "get-there-itis" because I was positive at the get go that this would be a simple flight, and I felt no pressure to complete it.

I'm so damn upset with myself right now, I don't think anyone understands.
Click to expand...

Ok, now that I've read this whole thread, where is the guy who pops in to claim that "I do this all the time"? I guess I ain't in usenet any more:dunno:

VFR over the top ought to be no big deal IFF you have the skills to deal with a hard IFR descent / approch on the other end. Otherwise, (IMO) it falls in the catagory of betting your life on a weather report.
 
JeffDG said:
I think it was in AOPA Flight Training, but there was an article that questioned the wisdom of teaching PP students to always do the 180. His basic premise was that the person caught in IMC should first: control the plane, dial 7700 (ATC will immediately clear your path of IFR traffic), climb above the MSA on the sectional (so you don't run into any cumulogranite), and proceed from there. He argued that it's just as likely you'll pop out of the cloud a few miles ahead or as you climb as turning around.

Not sure I agree, but it was well thought through
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I read that article as well, and I thought it was good advice - definitely opposite of what I was taught. I think one of the theories was a pilot with the mere 3 hrs of hood time is ill-equiped to cross-reference the instruments, interpret the instruments, and rely on the instruments while in IMC to make a coordinated, level 180-degree turn and rolling out on a certain heading without risking an unusual attitude, vertigo or spacial disorientation. The idea is that keeping wings straight and level is a better strategy for a VFR-only pilot thrown into IMC.
 
nddons said:
I read that article as well, and I thought it was good advice - definitely opposite of what I was taught. I think one of the theories was a pilot with the mere 3 hrs of hood time is ill-equiped to cross-reference the instruments, interpret the instruments, and rely on the instruments while in IMC to make a coordinated, level 180-degree turn and rolling out on a certain heading without risking an unusual attitude, vertigo or spacial disorientation. The idea is that keeping wings straight and level is a better strategy for a VFR-only pilot thrown into IMC.
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I found the article in case anyone's interested...might need to be an AOPA member for it, it's from the December 2007 Flight Training mag...

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/members/ft_magazine/archives/article.cfm?article=6153
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
VFR over the top ought to be no big deal IFF you have the skills to deal with a hard IFR descent / approch on the other end. Otherwise, (IMO) it falls in the catagory of betting your life on a weather report.
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Exactly. I will fly over scattered layers all day, but once it starts to get more than scattered I will decend VFR and fly under the clouds, or turn around if the clouds are too low along my route of flight. Weather reports and forecasts can be innacurate and betting that conditions will be better at your destination when you'll be a lot lower on fuel is a bet I am not willing to make.
 
As a student pilot I flew from KLNS to KVVS (across the Alleghenies) one beautiful Spring morning. As I droned on in the PA-28-160, I noticed the landscape below slowly obscured by a thin layer.

It wasn't exactly clouds -- it was like a translucent blanket over the ridges.

I was a bit flustered (had about 25 hours at that point) and plum forgot the FSS freq (it was written on my kneeboard -- duh).

I know I was close to Bedford, PA, so altered course and descended into the foggy haze and landed at the Bedford Airport.

I called someone at the destination -- "Beautifully clear here -- not a cloud in the sky!"

I took off 10 minutes later. By this time the stuff had started forming into clouds. I climbed though on top and it was clear and beautiful again.

I suppose I had legal "reference to the ground," as I could see the ridge tops and had a clear horizon, etc.

But I got a good lesson in how quickly a layer can form -- especially in the morning in the mountains when the temp-dewpoint spread meets.
 
O.K., I'll fess up. Coming back from down South last year I had VFR wx at Savannah but a solid overcast north to the mountains, which themselves were enshrouded. My druthers was to wait it out, but there were two hurricanes inbound pumping massive amounts of humidity into the atmosphere, so things weren't likely to get better, and one could easily have made a bee line for our position. I decided to launch and got over it all. I knew the wx broke up north of the mountains and had fuel to get there, or divert all the way back if I had to. I kept checking wx north of the rocks and kept getting back clear wx, so I kept going. There was a real pucker factor at one point when the mountain obscuration nearly outclimbed the airplane, but I maintained legal cloud clearances and had an out in lower terrain to the east.

I fly over overcast layers all the time, but usually only if I have plenty of room under them to right any unusual attitudes and find an emergency landing spot. This is usually over mountains, where the wx is often quite different once you get to the flatlands. The one I just described was my only ever flight over actual IFR conditions, and I hope to never do so again. Too nerve racking.
 
Noooooo...don't do it. Next thing Bruce will be saying to you is "Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney..." :rofl:
 
The home page on my cell phone is a picture I took at dawn's first light when advection FG formed below me out of the clear blue right before my eyes. It's mesmerising to watch that phenomena happen. And it reminds me of how a pilot must always be vigilant including having a viable Plan B.
 
What was the one thing that should have been a clue when he was still on the ground?
 
Hmmmm, I thought it was when we realized it was Nick! :eek: :D
 
As I read this entire thread, it occurred to me that if there had been an unfortunate outcome, the tone of the thread would have been entirely different. It would have been negative on nearly every count. No one would have said, "well, you learned from it even though it ended in an accident" or, "gosh, I've done something like that myself" or "I can see how all this transpired and it is sad that it ended badly but it was still all too human."

The "chain of events" would have been parsed and dissected to a fare-the-well. Mental state and attitude would have been pilloried.

Frankly, I kind of like the "human understanding" approach we see here better.
 
These sorts of things happen a lot more often than any of us would like. Some are worse than others - Obviously the worst kind result in an accident, the less-worse kind involves a "save" by ATC, and the rest end up as a story for a pilot to tell (on a web board or otherwise) and hopefully learn from.

The quicker the pilot realizes the accident chain forming and changes plan, the more likely there will be a good outcome.

I think we've all had scary moments in airplanes - In fact, I'd be afraid to fly with someone who had never been scared in an airplane - but it's how we learn to back off earlier.

Now, my question is - How is it that we're sitting here 5 1/2 years later and Nick still doesn't have his instrument rating? Get crackin', man!!! :yes:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
These sorts of things happen a lot more often than any of us would like. Some are worse than others - Obviously the worst kind result in an accident, the less-worse kind involves a "save" by ATC, and the rest end up as a story for a pilot to tell (on a web board or otherwise) and hopefully learn from.

The quicker the pilot realizes the accident chain forming and changes plan, the more likely there will be a good outcome.

I think we've all had scary moments in airplanes - In fact, I'd be afraid to fly with someone who had never been scared in an airplane - but it's how we learn to back off earlier.

Now, my question is - How is it that we're sitting here 5 1/2 years later and Nick still doesn't have his instrument rating? Get crackin', man!!! :yes:
Click to expand...

Gah!! I would have it already, but man, renting airplanes is freaking expensive, especially with a human sized lump in the right seat.

Soon....out here, I'm going to need it, that much I can tell already.
 
Well, I had my own VFR into IMC experience four months before Nick's, and mine wasn't "almost", it was the real mccoy, wins the cigar experience. It was also the event that prompted me to go for my IR, and yet here we are, almost 6 years later, and I still don't have the rating. Lots of the same reasons as Nick's too: I lost access to an affordable airplane, gas prices went sky high (kinda like now). Then I bought my own airplane, and so far it has turned out to be a maintenance pig.

Not to mention that, in 21 minutes, it will no longer be an airplane, but rather a large, carved orange gourd belonging to the squash family. Given my mechanic's track record, it will also stay that way for at least 3 weeks while he spends most of his time working on every other plane on the field needing service. (I guess that's only fair though, as I can remember a couple of times when MINE was the "other airplane".)
 
SkyHog said:
Gah!! I would have it already, but man, renting airplanes is freaking expensive, especially with a human sized lump in the right seat.
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Find thee a flying club! (Or start one if there aren't any.)

Soon....out here, I'm going to need it, that much I can tell already.
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Yep, lots more moisture out that way than you're used to! And BTW, 8 miles vis is still "good VFR". ;)
 
Yeah, owning is way different than renting. A boatload of your money goes into keeping both you and the bird flying. What's kept me away from the IR, which I want badly, is simply money. Stupid to rent an aircraft for the IR when I own one that needs flying. Expensive to convert mine to IR. Instruments and installation don't come cheap, as anyone who has upgraded an aircraft can attest.
 
steingar said:
Yeah, owning is way different than renting. A boatload of your money goes into keeping both you and the bird flying. What's kept me away from the IR, which I want badly, is simply money. Stupid to rent an aircraft for the IR when I own one that needs flying. Expensive to convert mine to IR. Instruments and installation don't come cheap, as anyone who has upgraded an aircraft can attest.
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What needs to be added to your plane to make is IFR capable? I did almost all my training with two VORs and that's it. No DME, no GPS, no ADF.
 
I found this thread kind of late but its an interesting one. I used to fly with the CAP out of Albuquerque and remember quite a few searches in the mountains around Santa Fe. Most of those searches were due to exactly the kind of conditions Nick described....someone popping on top thinking there would be a hole to come back down through. Unfortunately the clouds in that area frequently have rocks in them even at 12,000ft....santa fe baldy, truchas peak.....etc. Having said all that though I think that he did exactly what needed to be done, admit there is a problem, get some help and follow it. We all make mistakes flying and what makes the difference between us and the ones we search for is called luck. Sometimes its the difference between keeping our head in a bad situation or not. Sometimes its simple dumb luck. It shouldn't discourage you from flying though...if anything it should encourage. I survived a bad situation so a bit more training will help me do it better next time......
an instrument rating will help me if I need to head into the clouds to clear the rocks...
You'll also learn that sometimes its better to wait a bit to fly. I don't recall having 2 days in a row unflyable when I lived out there.

Last thing is a suggestion to join the CAP. Not sure if you're based in santa fe or albuq but there are units spread all over New Mexico and they all fly. I got a lot of flying time built up with them back in the late 80's early 90's. I flew with a lot of guys who were very switched on and taught me a lot about mountain flying, survival and a lot of what ifs. We got to see a lot of situations where the what ifs caught up with someone and learned a lot. When I left in the mid 90's the albuq group had a 206, 182, a 180HP 172 and a couple normal ones. Santa Fe had a T-41 (210HP 172) and a 182 and I think they had gotten a 206 as well. Los Alamos had a couple planes too....
Its worth the time you put into it and you gain a lot. New Mexico has terrain and weather that create a lot of searches for more than just planes. We searched for hikers and people stuck on back roads etc.
Good luck and glad you posted despite the embarassment.

Frank
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Yep, lots more moisture out that way than you're used to! And BTW, 8 miles vis is still "good VFR". ;)
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Yeah, I was gonna say Nick's gonna have to get used to the Southeast haze that starts, oh, about now and doesn't leave until September. Yes, it really is VFR, but it was flying in that haze with the sun right in my face that made me decide to get my instrument rating.
 
rpadula said:
Yeah, I was gonna say Nick's gonna have to get used to the Southeast haze that starts, oh, about now and doesn't leave until September. Yes, it really is VFR, but it was flying in that haze with the sun right in my face that made me decide to get my instrument rating.
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I got my private at Monroe, NC (KEQY) and I can attest to that haze. Monroe is under Charlotte's class Bravo shelf, and has C-130s based there as well, with a MTR not too far north of Monroe heading east. More than once I feared seeing a C-130 crossing my path in the haze.

Another time I saw a Cirrus at my 3 o'clock coming out of the haze. It looked like a wasp with its legs hanging out. Yikes.

I got my IR last September.
 
So, did you ever figure out why the VOR CDI's indicate east/west when the airport/VOR was actually north?
 
EdFred said:
So, did you ever figure out why the VOR CDI's indicate east/west when the airport/VOR was actually north?
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Nope....I assume equipment failure or fog of war syndrome. I doubt I'll ever know now, as I think that plane was destroyed a few years back.
 
This thread must have 9 lives, and it hasn't used all of them... yet.
 
DesertNomad said:
Easier said than done. Our airport prohibits flying clubs on the field.
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Whaaa? What airport? Pretty sure if they've gotten any FAA funds that they're not allowed to do such a thing.

Also... Why? Flying clubs are one of the best ways to bring flying to a larger part of the population.
 
I'm glad someone resurrected this thread. Same situation for me, Tucson to Winkler Texas just a few days ago. VFR on top about 50 miles out of Tucson and we never found the end of it until we had to descend through the clouds into Winkler. My flying partner is a CFI and instrument rated but my plane isn't. We descended through the cloud layer which was about 3000' feet thick and ended up about 4000' above the ground. Texas is flat there so we had no mountain issues. But we did have an issue we weren't prepared for which became apparent when we tried to make the radio calls into Winkler. The battery was dead because of a bad connector to the alternator (read about the whole ordeal in my "First long cross country" post. Glad you are safe, glad I was safe to fly another day.
 
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