All things Cirrus

Agree to disagree. I question if you've heard the entire transcript and the insane number of times they redirected her and gave her confusing instructions.


Make a right base to 35.... turn left to 30... follow the 737 to 4.... I don't know which way you're going.

Bad controllers.

I listened to the entire recording right after the accident. I have watched in horror, the video of the airplane spinning in. I am a fairly low time PP, I looked at an airport diagram and listened to it while looking at that, I was not confused. They had her coming straight in and she was too damned high and had to go around. A go around is fine, but in busy airspace, you are gonna have to drink ATC instructions from a fire hose and she, quite frankly, wasn't up to the task. I cannot believe you can listen to that recording and tell me she was competent to fly in that airspace, no way.
 
Again, I think you need to listen to the transcript above.

In the end, it's her fault, but what they did with her was not right.
I read the transcript on KR. ATC was very patient and trying to help, I don't see what you claim they did wrong.
 
I'll drop it, but based on what you guys are saying, I don't think you've actually listened to the entire thing. They sent her in circles and cleared her for 4 or 5 different runways before the 2 "high approaches" occurred.
 
I agree Salty, but if she was getting task saturated, she should have taken a time-out with exiting the pattern and regrouping, or going to another airport. ATC contributed to this accident, but responsibility is fully with the pilot.
 
It all started because she was too high on her first approach.......go back and listen to the beginning. From there it just went bad. This will be my last comment on it as well, but I believe that the controllers probably would have done things differently if the had understood how over her head she was.
 
It all started because she was too high on her first approach.......go back and listen to the beginning. From there it just went bad. This will be my last comment on it as well, but I believe that the controllers probably would have done things differently if the had understood how over her head she was.
No. Her first high approach was about the 4th time she was cleared to land. I don't think you heard the part where they were screwing her around.
 
Yep, everything happens faster in a Cirrus. :cool:
At my advanced age I will stick with my Piper, which I just confirmed still allows 5 minutes for us geriatric Seniors.
What??? I can go three hours before running out of gas and having to wake up in my Piper.
 
No. Her first high approach was about the 4th time she was cleared to land. I don't think you heard the part where they were screwing her around.

you are right about the first approach, she was too slow, not too high.
 
you are right about the first approach, she was too slow, not too high.
Too slow for the 737 yeah, but not really too slow.

As I said, obviously she is responsible for flying her plane an nobody else, but what they did with her was also not cool. After a few times, how about making the pro pilot go around and get her on the ground safely?
 
Hindsight is 2020. But my take-away from this was the need to fly out of the situation when things get confusing. But she may have run out of fuel since witnesses heard her engine sputtering. And if she was low on fuel she was responsible to declare a fuel emergency and that would have given her priority to land under any circumstance, high or not.
 
For those who fly Cirrus, how many times have you blown a nose wheel on landing?
I blew a main gear tire once in beaufort, sc of all places. Landed and while slowing down it blew before I turned on the taxiway. Only problem I've had in 400 plus Cirrus hours
 
I'll drop it, but based on what you guys are saying, I don't think you've actually listened to the entire thing. They sent her in circles and cleared her for 4 or 5 different runways before the 2 "high approaches" occurred.
Why did they send her in circles? 4 or 5 different runways?
 
I'll drop it, but based on what you guys are saying, I don't think you've actually listened to the entire thing. They sent her in circles and cleared her for 4 or 5 different runways before the 2 "high approaches" occurred.

I've listened to that one you linked and the original which is MUCH MUCH longer.

Are you aware of how long making five approaches into Hobby takes when you're totally confused (like that pilot was and should NOT have been) and flying a few miles out into the path of multiple airliners lined up on different final approach paths? The recording you linked time compresses the whole thing and makes it seem much more confusing than it actually was.

The pilot could NOT visualize where the controller was putting her for approaches, nor her relationship between distance and altitude from the airport.

Listening to it a couple of times back when it happened, I really wondered if she had a CO problem on board. She's not all "in there" and nowhere close to where she needed to be to arrive at a busy airliner airport during a minor landing rush.

Many pilots haven't flown much in airspace where you're the speed bump and they need to get you out of the way of faster stuff, but once you have, you realize your game has to come up a bit. You're going to get vectored off of final and in close on a base or some other method of keeping you out of the conga line doing 50+ more knots than you, and you're going to get worked into a gap in it.

Unless it's the middle of the night, you're not going to get a ten mile straight in final.

If you can't keep your altitude and relative bearing to the airport and multiple runways straight in a mental picture or at least on a portable device, you're going to have to ASK for special help. And even then you might get to go circle for ten minutes until a big enough gap opens up to put you in it.

If you've completely lost the sight picture, you need to ask for a vector somewhere away from the airport and get it together. There's never any time even the most confusing instruction from a controller should EVER override priority number one, you're PIC. Maintain airspeed. No matter what.

They weren't asking her to do anything particularly special or difficult. Fly away, turn, follow the big Boeing that just blasted past your windshield. Point the airplane at the runway numbers NOW or the spacing to the next Boeing behind that one doesn't work. These aren't fatal requests. This is normal flying into a busy airliner airport.
 
The Cirrus Ops manual:

Starting Engine
5. Mixture ................. FULL RICH
6. Power Lever ............FULL FORWARD
7. Fuel Pump...............BOOST
8. Propeller Area .........CLEAR
9. Power Lever ............OPEN ¼ INCH
10. Ignition Switch........START (Release after engine starts)
11. Mixture ................LEAN until RPM rises to a maximum value. Leave the mixture in this position during taxi and until run-up.
12. Power Lever ...........RETARD (to maintain 1000 RPM)

Then the plane is not to taxi until the oil temp has reached 103f.

um not quite. step 7 should include prime if the engine is cold. and step 11 doesn't exist. you leave the mixture full rich. and why does the oil temp need to be 103F to taxi when you can take off when its 75F ?? if you own or fly a cirrus, i would double check your POH.

i dont know where you came up with the 103F for taxiing, or run up. no where in the POH says anything about minimum taxi temps or even run up temps other than 1000 rpm for taxi, but slightly higher is ok for turf, or to get it moving.

please show me if im wrong.

75F to take off section 2, page 6.
 
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um not quite. step 7 should include prime if the engine is cold. and step 11 doesn't exist. you leave the mixture full rich. and why does the oil temp need to be 103F to taxi when you can take off when its 75F ?? if you own or fly a cirrus, i would double check your POH.
i dont know where you came up with the 103F for taxiing, or run up. no where in the POH says anything about minimum taxi temps or even run up temps other than 1000 rpm for taxi, but slightly higher is ok for turf, or to get it moving.
please show me if im wrong.
75F to take off section 2, page 6.

Cirrus Ops Manual http://whycirrus.com/safety/23020-002_RA_Std_FOM.pdf

Starting (Pg 3-23)
5. Mixture ......................................................................... FULL RICH
6. Power Lever ........................................................FULL FORWARD
7. Fuel Pump.....................................................PRIME, then BOOST
8. Propeller Area .....................................................................CLEAR
9. Power Lever ............................................................OPEN ¼ INCH
10. Ignition Switch......................................................................START
11. Power Lever ...............................RETARD (to maintain 1000 RPM)
12. Oil Pressure ....................................................................... CHECK
13. Mixture (SR22TN/SR22T)......................................................LEAN

Before Takeoff (Pg 3-32)
Verify engine oil temperature reaches a minimum of 100º F prior to applying run up power settings. (I add 3F as a buffer).

The Cirrus Transition and Online Training instruct that the plane should not be taxied until the oil temp reaches 100F because
to get the plane moving the engine must be revved sometimes at or near run up power of 1700rpm dependent on incline and surface etc.
 
Citizen, I think that ops manual is out of date. It was issued in feb 2011, were my poh is Jan 2013, but it does say it's for 2016 sr20...and is probably why there different. I believe your talking about the 22t

But I did find the 100 degrees before take off, for me it was section 4 page 13 under before take off and it was only for cold weather operations. There is zero mention of minimum oil temp for taxi during non cold weather ops. Cirrus considers 20f cold weather.

I learned to fly in a 20 from a cirrus instructor and we followed the book. I will see if I can find my poh online and link it.
 
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Uh oh. I assumed an anonymous avatar's gender! I'm going to PC jail now. :)
There are actually 3 anonymous avatars.
avatar_female_m.png
avatar_male_m.png
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Citizen, I think that ops manual is out of date. It was issued in feb 2011, were my poh is Jan 2013, but it does say it's for 2016 sr20...and is probably why there different. I believe your talking about the 22t
But I did find the 100 degrees before take off, for me it was section 4 page 13 under before take off and it was only for cold weather operations. There is zero mention of minimum oil temp for taxi during non cold weather ops. Cirrus considers 20f cold weather.
I learned to fly in a 20 from a cirrus instructor and we followed the book. I will see if I can find my poh online and link it.

Yes, the leaning part is for the SR22T. And the manual in the link matches the current Flight Ops (dated Feb 2013) I have a copy my desk from Cirrus (for all models). So the information is still current. Hope the oil temp information helped.
 
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Oh there's more genders than that, Mister! You're in PC jail now, too! :) A question mark doesn't cover it anymore. Haha.
I think there are like 27 genders now, and gender may change moment to moment.
 
You dinosaurs are behind the times. There are 4 things. There's sex. There's gender. There's sexuality. And there's another thing.

Each has its own spectrum. So there are infinite permutations. Get with the times! Gender fluidity is all the rage.
 
You dinosaurs are behind the times. There are 4 things. There's sex. There's gender. There's sexuality. And there's another thing.

Each has its own spectrum. So there are infinite permutations. Get with the times! Gender fluidity is all the rage.

MOARRRR avatars! Stat!
 
Yes, the leaning part is for the SR22T. And the manual in the link matches the current Flight Ops (dated Feb 2013) I have on my desk from Cirrus (for all models). So the information is still current. Hope the oil temp information helped.

So from this I take it you own one?

If so, how do you like it?
 
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