All ad's current this date - sufficient?

Silvaire said:
"...inspected IAW annual inspection and found to be airworthy" may seem terse but it's fine and dandy both from a legal standpoint and from the perspective of the next mechanic to do an annual on the aircraft. If the recurring AD is in compliance and no action is taken at the time then no mention needs to be made of it. To do so would be like making an entry such as: "Checked tires and found them not to be worn out" - kind of silly.

The statement above implies that all facets are covered. If you look at it with an attitude of skepticism and suspicion then why would a more verbose entry be an improvement? I mean if the guy's a fraud, cheat and a liar how does more words out of his mouth make it better?......:dunno:
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What about the first part? "all AD's current". Would you make such a blanket statement?

darylp said:
Is the phrase "all AD's current" and certification that "inspection IAW annual inspection and found to be airworthy" sufficient log entry to satisfy that a 200 hour recurring AD was performed. Specifically concerned with AD 70-26-04.
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Tom-D said:
I beg the differ Dr.

when you have an AD that applies to your make and model, but not your S/N there are no requirements to list it. ( that's legal) listing it and making a note to the fact it does not apply by S/N =Smart, because it is easier than looking it up every annual.
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I wrote it poorly TD. Every one that has been c/w needs be listed and how it has been c/w with.

As in, "and how, do I demonstrate compliance with this new regulation, Sir?"
 
Spend 5 minutes and generate a complete AD list with compliance, time of recurrence, or reason of non applicability and place it in the logs?
 
There's no requirement to log compliance with AD's already complied with (and previously logged). The "All AD's complied with" is spurious verbiage. It would behoove you during annual to have a list of all the possible ADs and index them to when/how they were complied with. This makes it easier the next time around but this doesn't need to be part of the official maintenance record (log).
 
Why not? When he signed off the annual he already rendered his opinion on that issue.

RotorAndWing said:
What about the first part? "all AD's current". Would you make such a blanket statement?
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bbchien said:
I wrote it poorly TD. Every one that has been c/w needs be listed and how it has been c/w with.

As in, "and how, do I demonstrate compliance with this new regulation, Sir?"
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I agree with that, all ADs that apply must have a sign off in the maintenance records. Plus if the AD is a reoccurring AD the sign off must have the time or date that the next compliance is due.

If you really want to help in this area, subscribe to ADlog. and make it easy to check compliance of all ADs.
 
X2 on ADlog or similar, if the record keeping is at all sub par AD compliance can be a big pain, especially if you are paying me $65/hr to do the research, dig through the logs etc. I have come across records so bad that it was faster/cheaper just to go do the damned AD myself. I wish it wasn't such a frequent occurrence.

Now some, like the G stamp on the bendix fuel injector, I just go look myself rather than look for the AD record unless I happen to have stumbled upon the record of it first.
 
My mechanic uses a computer program that keeps track of the AD's, etc. on my plane. The annual logbook entry includes a sticker (in very tiny print) which is stuck on the page that lists all known AD's for that serial number airframe along with their state of compliance and the date of said compliance.

Interestingly, while my plane was in annual a few years back the inspectors came into his shop (not about me) and the logbook(s) was there on the wing. One inspector picked it up and thumbed through the book, set it back down, and did not say a word. (shrug)
 
Dr. O said:
My mechanic uses a computer program that keeps track of the AD's, etc. on my plane. The annual logbook entry includes a sticker (in very tiny print) which is stuck on the page that lists all known AD's for that serial number airframe along with their state of compliance and the date of said compliance.

Interestingly, while my plane was in annual a few years back the inspectors came into his shop (not about me) and the logbook(s) was there on the wing. One inspector picked it up and thumbed through the book, set it back down, and did not say a word. (shrug)
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It is almost a requirement now days to have a subscription to a computer AD search engine, You can get the ADs free at FAA.GOV. but no SBs, they are available at the manufacturer, if and that's a big IF the manufacturer places them on the web. many of the minor appliance manufacturers don't.
 
When I do an annual, for those select few for whom I do this service, I provide a single page report. On the front is listed as much information regarding airframe, powerplant, prop and accessories as I can get from the existing logs and from physical inspection. This includes part and serial numbers, installation dates and tach hours since new or overhaul. On the back side is a complete AD compliance list. Complied AD's will have date and tach time so that the relevant log entry can easily be located.

But this sheet is separate from the log. The logbook entries themselves will only reference an AD if compliance action of some sort was performed at that time. One of my pet peeves when doing the first annual on any aircraft is having to read through pages of excessively long narrative entries describing how a missing cotter pin was replaced or air was put in the tires as I search for the important information needed to verify my compliance list. The logbook entries should be kept short, concise and simple, it's not a diary. You can keep one of those separate if you want.
 
Tom-D said:
It is almost a requirement now days to have a subscription to a computer AD search engine, You can get the ADs free at FAA.GOV. but no SBs, they are available at the manufacturer, if and that's a big IF the manufacturer places them on the web. many of the minor appliance manufacturers don't.
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For years I used tData but, for the price, it really is a crappy program. So I developed my own system which consists of an Excel spreadsheet template into which I cut and paste the AD list from the FAA website. The neat thing is that the AD numbers paste as hyperlinks so if you click on them they open the AD in a browser. For Service Bulletins I just use Google. It's very rare that I have not been able to find a SB that is referenced by an AD. At any rate things these days are so much easier than when we had to look everything up on micro-fiche or a very large selection of paper binders (which also had to be maintained and updated).

The only complaint I have is that 25 years ago a typical AD might have been a paragraph or two whereas nowadays they don't seem to be capable of putting out one that is less than 20 pages long :hairraise:
 
Silvaire said:
The only complaint I have is that 25 years ago a typical AD might have been a paragraph or two whereas nowadays they don't seem to be capable of putting out one that is less than 20 pages long :hairraise:
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Cuz "we" as the mechanics keep screwing very simple things up, look at the new Cessna seat track AD
 
Skylane81E said:
Cuz "we" as the mechanics keep screwing very simple things up, look at the new Cessna seat track AD
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Nah, they just like writing regs with ambiguous language in them to keep you on your toes.

See Piper Oil Cooler hose AD.
See Recent GPS Database update logging requirements.

I've come to the conclusion that FAA regulations are written based on office bets of who can generate the most "Can you clarify" emails.
 
bartmc said:
Nah, they just like writing regs with ambiguous language in them to keep you on your toes.

See Piper Oil Cooler hose AD.
See Recent GPS Database update logging requirements.

I've come to the conclusion that FAA regulations are written based on office bets of who can generate the most "Can you clarify" emails.
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Both your examples are great examples of very clear FAA guidance.

Then again a good portion of my class slept through the paperwork classes
 
Skylane81E said:
Cuz "we" as the mechanics keep screwing very simple things up, look at the new Cessna seat track AD
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I think it's more due to the advent of computers and word processors. They used to have to type these things out onto an actual sheet of paper, change typewriter ribbons, undo with a white-out brush, xerox, punch holes, staple, file... all grueling physical work for white collar types in cubicles. :rolleyes2:
 
Tom-D said:
It's better to read the AD -

Inspect in accordance with instructions below within the next 50 hours time in service after the effective date of this AD and repeat after each subsequent 200 hours in service.

The aircraft has 105 hours on it since the last compliance with the AD does it need a new sign off at this annual?
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No.
And probably doesn't even need a mention.
That said, assuming the aircraft has complete logs from day 1, the compliance with all ADs pertaining to that aircraft will be duely noted, at the time of their compliance. It falls to the A&P, or IA, and the Owner to do the research.
While not required, it would be nice to see a note giving the date of compliance, every so often, so one doesn't have to read every stinking page of all 10 logbooks to find the entries. As much as I enjoy perusing AC logs, it can get quite tedious when looking for a specific item.
When it comes to recurring ADs, most of the time one need only to go back a page or two.
 
bluerooster said:
No.
And probably doesn't even need a mention.
That said, assuming the aircraft has complete logs from day 1, the compliance with all ADs pertaining to that aircraft will be duely noted, at the time of their compliance. It falls to the A&P, or IA, and the Owner to do the research.
While not required, it would be nice to see a note giving the date of compliance, every so often, so one doesn't have to read every stinking page of all 10 logbooks to find the entries. As much as I enjoy perusing AC logs, it can get quite tedious when looking for a specific item.
When it comes to recurring ADs, most of the time one need only to go back a page or two.
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On several occasions over the years I've encountered logbooks that have the "All AD's C/W" statement in the logbook, some signed off like that for years only to find out several AD's were never complied with. On all of the aircraft I've owned (25) and on those I've performed annuals on I took the time to do a comprehensive AD search and listing. When I built the new listing I showed all pertinent AD's and referenced in the logbook where the sign off could be found, and on AD's not applicable by S/N I listed them as such. If anyone looked at these logs (such as the FAA on a conformance inspection) they were clear and concise, and when the aircraft was sold the new owner and his mechanic didn't have to spend days doing an Easter egg hunt to find information. I used a service called TData and had records stored in a database and on my helicopters had developed spreadsheets that tracked life limited components daily.

Also, having clear and concise logs goes a long way in selling an aircraft, rather than the sloppy minimal sign offs often found.
 
RotorAndWing said:
....Also, having clear and concise logs goes a long way in selling an aircraft, rather than the sloppy minimal sign offs often found.
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I agree.
And while I've yet to buy an aircraft with an old AD not C/W, (I'm rather anal about AD compliance) I've had to hunt and search for the obscure entry.
Which is why I mentioned that it would be nice if once in a while, someone could make note in the logs where to find the entrys being refered to. Mabe every 4 or 5 years.
 
Some of the enlightened brokers and dealers spiff up the logs, but the great unwashed don't know how and don't seem to care.

bluerooster said:
I agree.
And while I've yet to buy an aircraft with an old AD not C/W, (I'm rather anal about AD compliance) I've had to hunt and search for the obscure entry.
Which is why I mentioned that it would be nice if once in a while, someone could make note in the logs where to find the entrys being refered to. Mabe every 4 or 5 years.
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...Making the market even a bigger buyer's market. I sold my Warrior a couple of months back and it was quite a hassle to demonstrate compliance with several items, particularly matching prop serial numbers when the original logbook combined prop and engine logs, for instance. Not a big deal, but it required me to do additional "due dilligence" in terms of opening up the aircraft at my expense to get the numbers recorded to the potential buyer's satisfaction. On a $25K airplane no less.

Now that I find myself yet again on the buyer's side, I can't help but roll my eyes at the absolute laughing stock of asking prices out there for airplane with partial logs, particularly when one comes in very well educated on specific ADs and line items to look for. These "sellers" are delusional. Then they get all huffy when the low ball offers come in. I don't care you got a 430 in there, if the paperwork is garbage, you got nothing. If you wish to keep it forever, sure paperwork doesn't matter, but to unload you gotta show the paper.

One thing I have learned through owning (granted low priced) airplanes is that you pay the piper either way. If you skate by for years with sketchy paperwork be prepared to get insulted at sale time due to lack of ability to demonstrate compliance, if you are actually serious about unloading the aircraft that is. Otherwise you just get to watch your toy rot and lose even more value, or go to the yard.

The next aircraft I get into I'm definitively getting the books on PDF.
 
hindsight2020 said:
...Making the market even a bigger buyer's market. I sold my Warrior a couple of months back and it was quite a hassle to demonstrate compliance with several items, particularly matching prop serial numbers when the original logbook combined prop and engine logs, for instance. Not a big deal, but it required me to do additional "due dilligence" in terms of opening up the aircraft at my expense to get the numbers recorded to the potential buyer's satisfaction. On a $25K airplane no less.

Now that I find myself yet again on the buyer's side, I can't help but roll my eyes at the absolute laughing stock of asking prices out there for airplane with partial logs, particularly when one comes in very well educated on specific ADs and line items to look for. These "sellers" are delusional. Then they get all huffy when the low ball offers come in. I don't care you got a 430 in there, if the paperwork is garbage, you got nothing. If you wish to keep it forever, sure paperwork doesn't matter, but to unload you gotta show the paper.

One thing I have learned through owning (granted low priced) airplanes is that you pay the piper either way. If you skate by for years with sketchy paperwork be prepared to get insulted at sale time due to lack of ability to demonstrate compliance, if you are actually serious about unloading the aircraft that is. Otherwise you just get to watch your toy rot and lose even more value, or go to the yard.

The next aircraft I get into I'm definitively getting the books on PDF.
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When I got an aircraft I assembled a binder that had the airframe log, engine log, prop log (if applicable), AD listing, SB listing, Life Limited components listing, S/N listings, 337 File and a miscellaneous file for things like interior compliance paperwork, etc. then I went to Office Max and bought a file case, put the aircraft registration and serial number on it, placed the binder in it along with the previous logs and paperwork. I also put the CD I ordered from the FAA into the file case.

In today's time with scanners being cheap it wouldn't be a bad idea scanning docs into a PDF and making a CD or having the info available to email a prospective buyer.
 
RotorAndWing said:
When I got an aircraft I assembled a binder that had the airframe log, engine log, prop log (if applicable), AD listing, SB listing, Life Limited components listing, S/N listings, 337 File and a miscellaneous file for things like interior compliance paperwork, etc. then I went to Office Max and bought a file case, put the aircraft registration and serial number on it, placed the binder in it along with the previous logs and paperwork. I also put the CD I ordered from the FAA into the file case.

In today's time with scanners being cheap it wouldn't be a bad idea scanning docs into a PDF and making a CD or having the info available to email a prospective buyer.
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But that makes sense and beats the hell out of a plastic Walmart shopping bag full of crap. :lol:
 
bnt83 said:
But that makes sense and beats the hell out of a plastic Walmart shopping bag full of crap. :lol:
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I know.

The pencil whippers will pipe in shortly to challenge this as unnecessary and not required, and how their minimal sloppy methods have worked for years.
 
RotorAndWing said:
In today's time with scanners being cheap it wouldn't be a bad idea scanning docs into a PDF and making a CD or having the info available to email a prospective buyer.
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Unfortunately the standard aircraft logbook doesn't mate well with the standard letter sized flatbed scanner and many owners have a penchant for stapleing every yellow tag and service invoice to the pages of their logbooks. What I do is put my handy dandy point and shoot digital camera in document copy mode and snap pictures of all the pages. When I first started to do this I was real meticulous about alignment and such but finally realized that this is not artwork, it's not going to be displayed. All I need is a copy of the page that is legible and can be clearly read. Once you realize this you can page through an entire set of logbooks in no time at all.

The only downside is that if you forget to set your camera back to landscape or portrait mode you might get home from vacation one day with a whole bunch of black and white pictures. Ask me how I know....:mad:
 
RotorAndWing said:
When I got an aircraft I assembled a binder that had the airframe log, engine log, prop log (if applicable), AD listing, SB listing, Life Limited components listing, S/N listings, 337 File and a miscellaneous file for things like interior compliance paperwork, etc. then I went to Office Max and bought a file case, put the aircraft registration and serial number on it, placed the binder in it along with the previous logs and paperwork. I also put the CD I ordered from the FAA into the file case.

In today's time with scanners being cheap it wouldn't be a bad idea scanning docs into a PDF and making a CD or having the info available to email a prospective buyer.
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A well organized and clean set of logs are a God send to the A&P-IA doing annuals.

ADlog does the AD portion of this very well.
 
Silvaire said:
What I do is put my handy dandy point and shoot digital camera in document copy mode and snap pictures of all the pages.
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That is a great way to save your log books I have a flash card for my camera, that has all the pages of both logs on it and I keep it in my safe at home.

It works for your pilot's log too.

1 page from the F-24 logs.
 

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The new(er) spiral-wrap card-stock folder/binders are gaining popularity since they are specficially designed for the adhesive stickers now used by many shops. With sections for airframe, engines, props and provisions for other records, they substitute one big book for all the little ones and clean up the file.
 
RotorAndWing said:
I know.

The pencil whippers will pipe in shortly to challenge this as unnecessary and not required, and how their minimal sloppy methods have worked for years.
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I will say that it is not NEEDED.

That doesn't mean I don't do it, or think that is a damn good idea.
 
bluerooster said:
I agree.
And while I've yet to buy an aircraft with an old AD not C/W, (I'm rather anal about AD compliance) I've had to hunt and search for the obscure entry.
Which is why I mentioned that it would be nice if once in a while, someone could make note in the logs where to find the entrys being refered to. Mabe every 4 or 5 years.
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Almost every log I have seen in the past 20 years has an AD section in the back. It's been a standard thing for a very long time.

I have not looked page by page for the AD sign offs in a long time. If your logs are that F-ed up, you best get busy getting them organized.
 
For those still reading this thread, you should read AC 39-7D the last two paragraphs are important.

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 39-7D.pdf

and the answer to the op's question is answered here
e. Required Entries into Records. The person accomplishing the AD is required by § 43.9 to record AD compliance. The entry must include those items specified in § 43.9(a)(1)
through (a)(4). The owner or operator is required by § 91.405 to ensure that maintenance personnel make appropriate entries and, by § 91.417, to maintain those records. Owners and operators should note that there is a difference between the records required to be kept by the owner under § 91.417 and those that § 43.9 requires maintenance personnel to make. In either case, the owner or operator is responsible for maintaining proper records.
 
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Tom-D said:
That is a great way to save your log books I have a flash card for my camera, that has all the pages of both logs on it and I keep it in my safe at home.

It works for your pilot's log too.

1 page from the F-24 logs.
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Can you take a pic of the Fairchild page that shows the plane was totaled due to landing accident and post it so we can see how that entry looks..:dunno::rolleyes:
 
N801BH said:
Can you take a pic of the Fairchild page that shows the plane was totaled due to landing accident and post it so we can see how that entry looks..:dunno::rolleyes:
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Why yank my chain over this, does it give you a sense of satisfaction or boost your ego?
 
I can think of another guy who cracked his airplane up in a landing accident. His name was Jimmy Doolittle.
 
Tom-D said:
Why yank my chain over this, does it give you a sense of satisfaction or boost your ego?
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I am not yanking your chain at all...:no:

I am curious what a log book entry looks like for a damages /destroyed aircraft... How is it worded ? What language is needed to pass FAA terminology. Do you have to spell out each point of damage and its severity ?....

Thanks in advance..
 
N801BH said:
I am not yanking your chain at all...:no:

I am curious what a log book entry looks like for a damages /destroyed aircraft... How is it worded ? What language is needed to pass FAA terminology. Do you have to spell out each point of damage and its severity ?....

Thanks in advance..
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Why would there be an entry for an accident/incident ?

only repairs are entered, not discrepancies.

the log books were sent to the insurance company and accompanied the aircraft when exported, with nothing entered other than what was there prior to the incident.
 
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