All 6Y9 Fly-Ins cancelled indefinitely

SkyHog said:
Ed - how short was it in year 1 when I went? Not much longer than 1500, right?
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1800' But look at the issues. You couldn't take off out of there with your pax. Someone almost ran off the end of the runway. Someone almost didn't make it out of there. Even 3 years ago a plane couldn't make it out. Over 4th of July a moderately loaded Bo didn't make it out either. And we are cutting off 600' of runway.
 
EdFred said:
1800' But look at the issues. You couldn't take off out of there with your pax. Someone almost ran off the end of the runway. Someone almost didn't make it out of there. Even 3 years ago a plane couldn't make it out. Over 4th of July a moderately loaded Bo didn't make it out either. And we are cutting off 600' of runway.
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Have you considered saying **** You to the owner and letting people continue to use it until he destroys the land or puts up a fence?
 
SkyHog said:
Have you considered saying **** You to the owner and letting people continue to use it until he destroys the land or puts up a fence?
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He has waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more money than us.

You do realize that SHCAHA has like $0 for, anything, right.
 
Ed, do not forget that, inasmuch as 6Y9 is a Public Use airport, the adjacent landowner may well still be restricted in what he can do on his property, especially as to obstructing safe air operations.

If the sole issue is concern about liability, he might well consider that constructively shortening the runway by his precipitate action actually makes the field and operations thereon much more dangerous, and could expose him to greater liability than if he had simply left it open.
 
EdFred said:
Most/all of you didn't know that the east 600' of runway was not actually owned by SHCAHA. We were given verbal permission to use the property (and actually improved it) for runway extension and usage for as long as we wanted. Well, as of this morning the owner of the property has decided that he (or I guess, more specifically his lawyer) no longer wants anyone landing on it, nor anyone taking off or landing over his property. Now that we've improved it, drained it, and made it so it's not just a mosquito breeding ground, he's probably going utilize it for himself.

So, by the time we hack off 600' feet put in the 20:1 displaced threshold, we're down to 1500'. With the trees getting taller at the west end, and the county not willing us to top them, in the interest of safety we will no longer be having any fly-ins. In a brief discussion yesterday with dad, and us flying in there with much, much tighter quarters, we may decide not to bother with it anymore.

I'm tempted to post his lawyer's number for everyone to call, but am refraining for now.

Anyone want to buy a Comanche? First $50k takes it.
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It would be a shame if those trees on the west end got invaded by destructive beatles or something. Eventually it would look as bad as if the tall trees on the west end were girdled or something.
 
SCCutler said:
Ed, do not forget that, inasmuch as 6Y9 is a Public Use airport, the adjacent landowner may well still be restricted in what he can do on his property, especially as to obstructing safe air operations.

If the sole issue is concern about liability, he might well consider that constructively shortening the runway by his precipitate action actually makes the field and operations thereon much more dangerous, and could expose him to greater liability than if he had simply left it open.
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That's a good point. Perhaps 6Y9 could lose the use of the part of the runway that is on the neighbor's property, but not necessarily the airspace over it...
 
comanchepilot said:
Seems to me that you actually a) need to speak to a lawyer concerning a constructive easement; b) you just learned that gentlemans agreements only work so long as both are acting as gentlemen; and that c) oral and 'implied in fact' understandings are not worth the paper they are written on . . .

Good luck -I'd see to #A ASAP . . . seems like you have pretty decent case of a constructive easement . ..

And Dad does not have to speak to his lawyer at all - he can still speak to his neighbor about this and ask if there is anything they can work out, before the lawyers get to ****ing up the tree.

My advice to a client would be to say:

"hey, we've been running this place for XX years . . . and we've always been good neighbors, plus based on your promises we've fixed up the land too. I dunno what your lawyer is spinning in your ears but I know that if I gotta go get one because of the money and effort we've put into this, after you said we could use it as long as we wanted to . . . well, that just doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

I'd rather handle it simply and try to help you out with your concerns . . . but if that doesn't work, we've done things in reliance your word and a handshake . . .so what is your problem and how can we help?"
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Best advice so far.

Clip4 said:
Besides increased liability with a runway on the property, there is an adverse possession issue where no wriiten agreement is in place. http://www.ehow.com/info_8079172_process-adverse-possession-michigan.html
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If the owner let them do it then there is no adverse possession.

Look for all you bone headly bashing lawyers with all due respect you have no clue how this came about. Fact is there may be some liability on the neighbor's head and if an attorney knew about it he or she would be remiss to not to point it out to the client.

That said. This post pains me greatly. 6Y9er holds a close to magical place in my heart. So rather than ***** about it lets find a solution. I have some Ideas and Comanche Pilot is thinking like the kind of attorney I like to work with. I can guarantee that Spike will throw his noggin into gear as well. I'd like to propose a conference call with you, Brad and Diz, myself, Spike and Comanche Pilot if he is inclined. There may be a simple solution to this issue. So before you go posting attorneys phone numbers lets try to work this out. If you and your folks are up for it, please call and I'll set it up.
 
Ok, before this gets rolling, does the airport have liability insurance?
 
Dizaster said:
Actually that thought crossed my mind and we would be willing to coordinate that for those from PoA that would still like to come and share Labor Day weekend.

And of course, we're trying to remain positive that something will happen down the road to make this just a hiccup.

We, as in our family, all are going through our different emotions as we all had different "investments" in this project. Not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water yet, but it sure has changed things for this year, that's for sure.

So if anyone, would still like to come and camp and hangout, if your plane isn't good for short field, I will throw the offer out there to make a few runs back and forth from KLNL. It's not that far really.
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I wonder if someone at either of those spots would be willing to provide at least one way transportation for the promised fuel up many of us would need.

That would reduce the workload on you guys.
 
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tmyers said:
That would reduce the workload on you guys.
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The workload has been reduced...at this point we are not hosting a "public" fly in! LOL-not! IF I could laugh about it, I would...I'm still processing.:)

If there is still an interest from those in PoA...we will make something work. I'm not sure if KLNL has any any car rentals, or if Bruce Crossing would drop off a car down there? They delivered one to 6Y9 last yr. for Grant. The distance is close to the same.
 
did you tell him that you have a fast talking philadelphia lawyer and a real life texan on retainer?
 
RotorAndWing said:
The sorry sad excuses of the "bar associations" that continue to admit and protect the incompetent are just fueling the problem.
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State pass laws for minimum standards for admission to practice law - local bar associations have damn little to do with it - directly.

After practicing for almost 30 years - I think a kid should get a license to apprentice to another attorney for 5 years - after doing it for 5 years - they then can apply for a full license [meaning they have a tried a case or two, understand the system and accept that everyone is lying to them, and know the procedures and have some common sense ideas about dealing with clients and resolving things] or you can get a limited license [which lets you do real estate, wills, basic trusts and perform general business and personal law, and represent clients before bureaucratic agencies] or Specialty Track [where you tax and speciality regulatory law but are never allowed inside a court room] or Pretty Boy law, where you graduated from law and work for government - which requires no real skill.

At least you'd know what you were buying when you shelled out your money -
 
EdFred said:
It also doesn't get you much in the way of legal counsel.
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You just got $1000 worth of advice for free . . . gosh people are stubborn.

And if anyone wants to PM me for a call - sure - I"ll donate my 15 minutes to moving you guys ahead

- but please - BE HONEST - I need to know all the bad stuff, all pi$$ing and moaning and complained and bad words and everything that might have gone on at at time . . . .

AS for insurance - yeah - you can indemnify him - up to a point. You have a successful doc who makes 3 mill a year burn up his Cirrus with his 2 kids and the dog at the end of the runway - and the wife is out for bear - very little you can do to stop that train and I dare say that the value of that life is morethan the most insurance you can buy. . . .
 
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Ok- This may be a long one -so here we go. Looks like a lot of shoot from the hip emotion out there, so calm down a little .
Ed has been Airport manager and has done some promotion to the POA and helps us with 6Y9's I.T. work,and I'm grateful. I'm going to have a talk with that boy about giving up so easily and selling his plane, he only flies up 2 or 3 times a year anyway:wink2: I wouldn't sell mine so easily:no:

Diz has been supportful of all my effort's ( some times reluctantly:wink2:, and has done all the work on the past 7 fly-ins and I'm grateful. She's the almost 41 year now love of my life:yesnod:

Myself, well, I'm not giving up,rolling over, or **** and moan about it:no:. It is what it is and I'll go forward. I've done 100% of the physical work to make 6Y9 what it is from day one, Diz and I have spent ten's of thousands of $ to make this happen and it is way to early to roll over.
First of all I am grateful for the landowners use of his property up till this point, he has been a very generous man. And bashing him and his Lawyer for doing his job right is wrong, he was a nice guy on the phone and it was the owners decision to err on the side that makes him comfortable. I have no issues with either.
So where do we go from here?


Ed is incorrect that we are down to 1500 ft., we now have what we started with, 2000ft, 0 ft. displacement on the east end,400 ft. displacement on the west end. It will be up to the pilot's and the ability of their skill and their planes design and function as to the the runway's use.

To the person who questioned our decision to use the neighbors property? we did what we had to do at the time. I wouldn't have given up those 8 years of use and I'd do it again if I had to.

The 6Y9 opportunity has actually created( or still is creating) two other public use airports. Because of 6Y9 I became the Michigan Liaison for the Recreational Aviation Foundation, we are opening an Airstrip on North Fox Island and at the Two Hearted River here in Michigan both open to the public.
Because of that I was invited to become a member of the Michigan Dept. of Aeronautics GA Committee and we are promoting GA here in Michigan.
Best of all I've made countless friend's, a lot of POA, but many many more.
I am extremely grateful for that.

So what am I doing about it?
I'm making call's to all I know and getting viable non emotional input.
I've got some cards up my sleeve and when all is said and done ,well let's say I'm an optimist.
You may be suprised at what will come of all this, we will probably come out way better than we were before.
That's it for now---- stay tuned--- and maybe just maybe we'll be amazed.
(disclaimer* ,I have been wrong once or twice in my life:wink2:)

Only sad thing it may mean we'll have to wait till next year for the 8th annual 6Y9 Fly-in.
 
Brad, Diz & Ed ... Thank you for creating and sharing your little slice of paradise. (Not to be confused with Paradise ;) )
I'm going to take Brad at his word and wish you all the best.

Signed,
Heartsick But Hopeful
 
JoeSelch said:
Brad, Diz & Ed ... Thank you for creating and sharing your little slice of paradise. (Not to be confused with Paradise ;) )
I'm going to take Brad at his word and wish you all the best.

Signed,
Heartsick But Hopeful
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Thank's Liz
Oh crap, I forgot I have my short sleeve on, can't keep too many cards up a short sleeve shirt:wink2:
 
JoeSelch said:
Brad, Diz & Ed ... Thank you for creating and sharing your little slice of paradise. (Not to be confused with Paradise ;) )
I'm going to take Brad at his word and wish you all the best.

Signed,
Heartsick But Hopeful
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Thanks Liz!!! What you said means a lot.
 
Well, I was considering coming...now I am coming...just to be ornery.

See you guys in a few weeks.
 
el con said:
Thank's Liz
Oh crap, I forgot I have my short sleeve on, can't keep too many cards up a short sleeve shirt:wink2:
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I'm not worried. (I still won't play poker with you ... I'm not that orange.)


Still, checking my outs - looks like it's only 45 miles from Land O'Lakes on foot.
 
Does Michigan have a recreational use statute ? Does it include aviation ?

In some places you can't sue the landowner if you use his land for recreational purposes and he doesn't charge you for it. Mostly applies to hunting land, mountain bike paths and the like. A couple of states (like MT) have aviation specifically included. If MI has such a law, it may help to alleviate the liability fears of the landowner.
 
el con said:
Ok- This may be a long one -so here we go. Looks like a lot of shoot from the hip emotion out there, so calm down a little .
Ed has been Airport manager and has done some promotion to the POA and helps us with 6Y9's I.T. work,and I'm grateful. I'm going to have a talk with that boy about giving up so easily and selling his plane, he only flies up 2 or 3 times a year anyway:wink2: I wouldn't sell mine so easily:no:

Diz has been supportful of all my effort's ( some times reluctantly:wink2:, and has done all the work on the past 7 fly-ins and I'm grateful. She's the almost 41 year now love of my life:yesnod:

Myself, well, I'm not giving up,rolling over, or **** and moan about it:no:. It is what it is and I'll go forward. I've done 100% of the physical work to make 6Y9 what it is from day one, Diz and I have spent ten's of thousands of $ to make this happen and it is way to early to roll over.
First of all I am grateful for the landowners use of his property up till this point, he has been a very generous man. And bashing him and his Lawyer for doing his job right is wrong, he was a nice guy on the phone and it was the owners decision to err on the side that makes him comfortable. I have no issues with either.
So where do we go from here?


Ed is incorrect that we are down to 1500 ft., we now have what we started with, 2000ft, 0 ft. displacement on the east end,400 ft. displacement on the west end. It will be up to the pilot's and the ability of their skill and their planes design and function as to the the runway's use.

To the person who questioned our decision to use the neighbors property? we did what we had to do at the time. I wouldn't have given up those 8 years of use and I'd do it again if I had to.

The 6Y9 opportunity has actually created( or still is creating) two other public use airports. Because of 6Y9 I became the Michigan Liaison for the Recreational Aviation Foundation, we are opening an Airstrip on North Fox Island and at the Two Hearted River here in Michigan both open to the public.
Because of that I was invited to become a member of the Michigan Dept. of Aeronautics GA Committee and we are promoting GA here in Michigan.
Best of all I've made countless friend's, a lot of POA, but many many more.
I am extremely grateful for that.

So what am I doing about it?
I'm making call's to all I know and getting viable non emotional input.
I've got some cards up my sleeve and when all is said and done ,well let's say I'm an optimist.
You may be suprised at what will come of all this, we will probably come out way better than we were before.
That's it for now---- stay tuned--- and maybe just maybe we'll be amazed.
(disclaimer* ,I have been wrong once or twice in my life:wink2:)

Only sad thing it may mean we'll have to wait till next year for the 8th annual 6Y9 Fly-in.
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God's honest truth, you darned near made me cry there, Mr. Frederick. My hat is off to you!
 
What is the economic impact to the local community?

Of all the people that fly in, buy meals at local resturants, say overnight at a local B&B.
Any fuel sales?

That is lost income to the local community. And don't forget the multiplication factor of $ in an economy. That $ changes hands multiple times and pays a lot of bills.
 
SCCutler said:
God's honest truth, you darned near made me cry there, Mr. Frederick. My hat is off to you!
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+1. I don't care what the length is, I'll find an airplane to show up in :). Maybe time to start that helicopter training...
 
jesse said:
+1. I don't care what the length is, I'll find an airplane to show up in :). Maybe time to start that helicopter training...
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Most trikes can be easily landed using about 800... some even less than that.

-Rich
 
jesse said:
+1. I don't care what the length is, I'll find an airplane to show up in :). Maybe time to start that helicopter training...
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Perfect! We'll have a PoA gathering after all! YAY!
 
Yep. Sounds like getting in is the easy part.
 
comanchepilot said:
State pass laws for minimum standards for admission to practice law - local bar associations have damn little to do with it - directly.

After practicing for almost 30 years - I think a kid should get a license to apprentice to another attorney for 5 years - after doing it for 5 years - they then can apply for a full license [meaning they have a tried a case or two, understand the system and accept that everyone is lying to them, and know the procedures and have some common sense ideas about dealing with clients and resolving things] or you can get a limited license [which lets you do real estate, wills, basic trusts and perform general business and personal law, and represent clients before bureaucratic agencies] or Specialty Track [where you tax and speciality regulatory law but are never allowed inside a court room] or Pretty Boy law, where you graduated from law and work for government - which requires no real skill.

At least you'd know what you were buying when you shelled out your money -
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So, splitting the roles of Barrister and Solicitor?
 
weilke said:
Does Michigan have a recreational use statute ? Does it include aviation ?

In some places you can't sue the landowner if you use his land for recreational purposes and he doesn't charge you for it. Mostly applies to hunting land, mountain bike paths and the like. A couple of states (like MT) have aviation specifically included. If MI has such a law, it may help to alleviate the liability fears of the landowner.
Click to expand...

We have an RUS here in Mi. And we have been working on an amendment to add "aviation activities" as has been done in about 19 other States.
This is one of the Recreational Aviation Foundation's missions.
Check it out . www.theraf.org
 
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comanchepilot said:
I think a kid should get a license to apprentice to another attorney for 5 years
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AdamZ said:
I have some Ideas and Comanche Pilot is thinking like the kind of attorney I like to work with. I can guarantee that Spike will throw his noggin into gear as well. I'd like to propose a conference call with you, Brad and Diz, myself, Spike and Comanche Pilot if he is inclined. There may be a simple solution to this issue. So before you go posting attorneys phone numbers lets try to work this out. If you and your folks are up for it, please call and I'll set it up.
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If this conference call is a go, I would like to be included as the aforementioned apprentice.
 
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