Alec Baldwin shoots and kills cinematographer.

[GaryM]

Probably wrong to judge based on appearance, but the pictures I've seen of the armorer don't strike me as a person that is a "fire-arms" type of person. I'd be curious to know her experience and qualifications, or if she was hired off the street, received 5 minutes of OJT and was assigned to fill that role.

I'm a little fuzzy on the details now that we are 13 pages in, but wasn't her dad an experienced armorer with a good reputation? And she was trying to learn the family business?
But I agree, she still seemed pretty green, and perhaps wasn't taking to the job the way her Dad had.

 

[DaleB]

I'm a little fuzzy on the details now that we are 13 pages in, but wasn't her dad an experienced armorer with a good reputation? And she was trying to learn the family business?
But I agree, she still seemed pretty green, and perhaps wasn't taking to the job the way her Dad had.

One does not absorb professional qualifications by proximity or osmosis.

 

[Tantalum]

..doesn't the buck ultimately stop with the armorer though? If a live round made it onto the set (how?) doesn't that still fall on their shoulder, since they're the one's responsible for the safe handling of, and discipline of, the armory??

 

[GaryM]

One does not absorb professional qualifications by proximity or osmosis.

It's not passed down genetically, either.

 

[Lindberg]

..doesn't the buck ultimately stop with the armorer though? If a live round made it onto the set (how?) doesn't that still fall on their shoulder, since they're the one's responsible for the safe handling of, and discipline of, the armory??

Can more than one person be responsible? (hint: yes)

 

[Tantalum]

Can more than one person be responsible? (hint: yes)

Sure, and call me crazy, maybe Hollywood does it differently, but any of the shooting ranges and gun training / activity I've been part of were extremely disciplined about safe handling. I get it, on movie sets you sometimes have to point guns at people, but if there was a poor culture of safety and the gun was left unattended and being played with off work hours that seems like most of the blame, even if we call it 51%, should be on the armorer. It's their responsibility to objectively keep the gun safe, and, qualitatively to establish the current gun discipline culture

 

[judypilot]

Probably wrong to judge based on appearance, but the pictures I've seen of the armorer don't strike me as a person that is a "fire-arms" type of person. I'd be curious to know her experience and qualifications, or if she was hired off the street, received 5 minutes of OJT and was assigned to fill that role.

Supposedly her father was a long-time movie armorer.

 

[PPC1052]

Probably wrong to judge based on appearance, but the pictures I've seen of the armorer don't strike me as a person that is a "fire-arms" type of person. I'd be curious to know her experience and qualifications, or if she was hired off the street, received 5 minutes of OJT and was assigned to fill that role.

I understand her father had been a long time armorer for movies and she grew up on sets, and he trained her. Apparently not well, though.

 

[PPC1052]

..doesn't the buck ultimately stop with the armorer though? If a live round made it onto the set (how?) doesn't that still fall on their shoulder, since they're the one's responsible for the safe handling of, and discipline of, the armory??

I would think so. If I were in the role, I would want any firearm locked up, accessible only by me, loaded only by me, and handed out to the user only by me after I had conducted a final check. No one gives their weapon to anyone but me, I clear them and lock them up. But I have had zero firearms training. (ok, next to zero. An FBI buddy took me to the range once, and he gave me a quick primer.) So, what do I know?

 

[Lindberg]

Sure, and call me crazy, maybe Hollywood does it differently, but any of the shooting ranges and gun training / activity I've been part of were extremely disciplined about safe handling. I get it, on movie sets you sometimes have to point guns at people, but if there was a poor culture of safety and the gun was left unattended and being played with off work hours that seems like most of the blame, even if we call it 51%, should be on the armorer. It's their responsibility to objectively keep the gun safe, and, qualitatively to establish the current gun discipline culture

You're crazy. You never have to point a real gun at anyone on a movie set. Been covered several times in this thread.

 

[eaglepilot]

I was asking about Who has worked on a movie set, because there are plenty of opinions about how things happened and Who is responsible. Not many that align with what I have observed on working on Movie sets (20+ times in the last few years, as a standby paramedic for stunts).

My observations-

1. Actors do not question whether props are good to go, or not. They depend on staff to provide them with proper equipment, properly set up.

2. Actors are focused on delivering their lines, and Acting. Crew are forbidden from interacting with them while the cameras are being set up, or rolling (of course). No crew is allowed to look into the Actor's eyes (even from 50 ft away) while the camera is rolling (doing so distracts the Actor). Crew should not talk with the Actor on set, as the Actor may be focused on their jobs, just like you should be focused on yours.

3. AD's (Assistant Directors) come in all levels of expertise. On shooting day, the 1st AD (there are usually 4) is a very busy person. They DEPEND on everyone doing their job, professionally. If a Stunt Coordinator says that the rigging is safe, the AD does not question it, unless something is obvious.

4. Sets are very much a scenario where Do Your Own Job is a guiding principle. I have been told to stand down when I wanted to help a crew member move some heavy equipment (think Camera Equipment), because it is not my job. By helping, I'm inferring that they can't do their job.

5. I've only been on a few sets with firearms, but on those sets, there is ALWAYS someone at the table with the firearms, and NO ONE is allowed to touch them, except the Armorer.

The investigation will uncover the chain of events that led to this tragedy, and I'll be watching as much as anybody to hear what they uncover. Kind of like hearing what the NTSB has to say after an aircraft accident.

Alec Baldwin may be held partially responsible, but speculation about his requirement to inspect the firearm before the camera rolls is incorrect, in my mind. It just triggers me. (see what I did there?)

 

[GaryM]

You're crazy. You never have to point a real gun at anyone on a movie set. Been covered several times in this thread.

OK, this isn't exactly germane to the discussion, but when I was competing seriously, both the NCAA and later Team USA made it clear that none of their athletes were to ever point a gun directly at a still or video camera. It didn't matter if the camera was remotely triggered and no one was downrange. The point was that no reader or viewer should ever see a muzzle-eye view of one of the target guns held by a competitor.

 

[mryan75]

I'm not a gun guy at all, but I thought the other day, all they really needed on set was anybody from the local rod and gun club. I did a promotional shoot (pardon the pun, it was a video) for a friend's business which involved handling firearms, and one of the guys there was from the local gun club. He was very straightfoward about do's and don't's and wouldn't have had a problem at all telling Alec Baldwin and/or a Hollywood director not to do something in a very firm voice.

 

[PPC1052]

I was asking about Who has worked on a movie set, because there are plenty of opinions about how things happened and Who is responsible. Not many that align with what I have observed on working on Movie sets (20+ times in the last few years, as a standby paramedic for stunts).

My observations-

1. Actors do not question whether props are good to go, or not. They depend on staff to provide them with proper equipment, properly set up.

2. Actors are focused on delivering their lines, and Acting. Crew are forbidden from interacting with them while the cameras are being set up, or rolling (of course). No crew is allowed to look into the Actor's eyes (even from 50 ft away) while the camera is rolling (doing so distracts the Actor). Crew should not talk with the Actor on set, as the Actor may be focused on their jobs, just like you should be focused on yours.

3. AD's (Assistant Directors) come in all levels of expertise. On shooting day, the 1st AD (there are usually 4) is a very busy person. They DEPEND on everyone doing their job, professionally. If a Stunt Coordinator says that the rigging is safe, the AD does not question it, unless something is obvious.

4. Sets are very much a scenario where Do Your Own Job is a guiding principle. I have been told to stand down when I wanted to help a crew member move some heavy equipment (think Camera Equipment), because it is not my job. By helping, I'm inferring that they can't do their job.

5. I've only been on a few sets with firearms, but on those sets, there is ALWAYS someone at the table with the firearms, and NO ONE is allowed to touch them, except the Armorer.

The investigation will uncover the chain of events that led to this tragedy, and I'll be watching as much as anybody to hear what they uncover. Kind of like hearing what the NTSB has to say after an aircraft accident.

Alec Baldwin may be held partially responsible, but speculation about his requirement to inspect the firearm before the camera rolls is incorrect, in my mind. It just triggers me. (see what I did there?)

Those are generally my wife's thoughts, too. Although her back ground is professional theatre, not movie sets.

 

[Tantalum]

You're crazy. You never have to point a real gun at anyone on a movie set. Been covered several times in this thread.

I agree, but apparently they do in Hollywood. OR, if this set was operating that far outside of the norm and precedent then they should all be charged with criminal negligence

 

[Lindberg]

I agree, but apparently they do in Hollywood.

On what do you base this conclusion? If it's based on what you've seen on film, well, we've all seen dinosaurs and aliens on film.

 

[wanttaja]

I understand her father had been a long time armorer for movies and she grew up on sets, and he trained her. Apparently not well, though.

It's not passed down genetically, either.

Yet.....

Baldwins father was a High School Rifle Team instructor and himself discharged from the Marines after being shot accidentally on a range…this just keeps getting stranger and more Ironic coming from a family that taught gun safety…

Ron Wanttaja

 

[luvflyin]

Any bets on when the last post on this doesn't make Page 1 of Recent Posts?

 

[wanttaja]

I would think so. If I were in the role, I would want any firearm locked up, accessible only by me, loaded only by me, and handed out to the user only by me after I had conducted a final check. No one gives their weapon to anyone but me, I clear them and lock them up.

I agree with this 100%. I'd have the actors break the weapon and verify its load in my presence, but would have strong words with any that fiddled with the gun when I wasn't around.

Remember, these are actors... not the sharpest tools in the shed. Alfred Hitchcock put it best: "I never said actors were cattle. I said actors should be treated like cattle."

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Tantalum]

On what do you base this conclusion? If it's based on what you've seen on film, well, we've all seen dinosaurs and aliens on film.

Based on this accident. That's my point, this is either normal for Hollywood which is crazy, or, this movie was operating far outside any kind of reasonable practice

 

[Daleandee]

(slowly raising my hand,no brag just fact) My Bacon score is one, or is it zero
Not counting college "art films"

I'm an actor now ... just ain't nobody taking pictures of it.

Did spend some time in media classes and former employment meant some TV camera time but nothing that really counts.

As William said, "All the world's a stage ... "

 

[Daleandee]

Some have even backfired…

Some of these need a "tap & rack" ...

 

[SoonerAviator]

Probably wrong to judge based on appearance, but the pictures I've seen of the armorer don't strike me as a person that is a "fire-arms" type of person. I'd be curious to know her experience and qualifications, or if she was hired off the street, received 5 minutes of OJT and was assigned to fill that role.

She is reportedly the daughter of a very well-regarded Holleywood armorer. However, that doesn't mean she is competent in her field.

 

[Palmpilot]

She is reportedly the daughter of a very well-regarded Holleywood armorer. However, that doesn't mean she is competent in her field.

One or more of the news articles quoted her as expressing doubt about her own readiness to take on the job.

 

[SoonerAviator]

One or more of the news articles quoted her as expressing doubt about her own readiness to take on the job.

Yup, read those quotes, although they may be hearsay. Same has been said about the supposed incident on a movie set with Nicholas Cage. Some people running with a rumor that there were two incidents of weapons being fired without warning and Cage got mad and yelled at her after the second time for "blowing his eardrums out without warning". However, other people interviewed from that crew didn't recall that ever having occurred. News media has started running another sort-of polarizing piece about the armorer being associated with a DUI motorcycle death of her former boyfriend who died on her motorcycle after he'd had too many and she gave him her keys to the bike. The DUI crash has nothing to do with this gun-incident, but they are doing their best to paint a less-than-rosy picture of the girl having a history of negligence.

 

[weilke]

Probably wrong to judge based on appearance, but the pictures I've seen of the armorer don't strike me as a person that is a "fire-arms" type of person. I'd be curious to know her experience and qualifications, or if she was hired off the street, received 5 minutes of OJT and was assigned to fill that role.

Her dad is apparently well known as a movie set armorer with decades of experience. He supposedly provided her with the training required. Based on interviews she gave a few months ago she was intimidated by things like loading prop guns with blanks and wasn't sure she was qualified for the job.
Appears to be more of a nepotism issue. As I said somewhere else: My dad retired as an accomplished engineer, but you don't want to live next to a nuclear facility I built...


As for the appearance and silly TikTok videos. Doesn't concern me. You can make a silly video yet be a fastidious armorer/pyrotechnics expert/crane operator/rocket surgeon....

 

[Katamarino]

It's not passed down genetically, either.

It's also not magically passed on, or otherwise, by how someone looks.

Maybe @midwestpa24 can tell us what you have to look like to be a "firearms person"? A middle aged white man with a beer gut, shaved head, Oakley sunglasses and a "Don't tread on me" shirt perhaps?

 

[midwestpa24]

It's also not magically passed on, or otherwise, by how someone looks.

Maybe @midwestpa24 can tell us what you have to look like to be a "firearms person"? A middle aged white man with a beer gut, shaved head, Oakley sunglasses and a "Don't tread on me" shirt perhaps?

That's why I prefaced my comment as I did. It isn't right to judge based on appearance and I admit it, but she appears at least to be a more typical California-style progressive. I would expect to see her at an anti-anything march than on a gun range. While not the stereotype you portrayed in your comment, I would expect a paid armorer to probably have a military or law enforcement background, a field with some experience in firearms handling, or at least a passion for it. I would say the comments even reportedly made her being nervous doing the job reveal that maybe she wasn't up to it. I would suspect the job of on-set armorer probably isn't a difficult one, but is one of high importance to do it right.

*Note, I'm talking about her fashion choices. Not her age, race, sex, or any other category.

 

[weilke]

Yup, read those quotes, although they may be hearsay.

Those are from a phone interview you can listen to.

 

[35 AoA]

News media has started running another sort-of polarizing piece about the armorer being associated with a DUI motorcycle death of her former boyfriend who died on her motorcycle after he'd had too many and she gave him her keys to the bike. The DUI crash has nothing to do with this gun-incident, but they are doing their best to paint a less-than-rosy picture of the girl having a history of negligence.

I agree that this doesn't have anything to do with the shooting, but it could be relevant, in terms of contributing factors. Was she a heavy drinker that went out partying every night? Was she partying the night before the shooting? Did alcohol contribute to a lack of full mental awareness or her work performance in the hours leading up to the shooting? Those are all large leaps of the imagination at this point, and I'm sure the media accounts don't paint a full picture, but they are clues. She gained a substantial amount of weight in what appears, in various photographs, to have been a pretty short amount of time. There are various things that can lead to this, but heavy and chronic alcohol consumption is one common cause for weight gain in college aged kids. Her former boyfriend had a previous DUI, and he was required to use an ignition interlock to drive.....which she allowed him to bypass by using her bike, which he subsequently used to kill himself. Sounds like additional bad decisions she made under the influence. Which leads back to my original thought/question.....what mental condition was she in on the day of the shooting?

 

[Palmpilot]

That's why I prefaced my comment as I did. It isn't right to judge based on appearance and I admit it, but she appears at least to be a more typical California-style progressive. I would expect to see her at an anti-anything march than on a gun range. While not the stereotype you portrayed in your comment, I would expect a paid armorer to probably have a military or law enforcement background, a field with some experience in firearms handling, or at least a passion for it. I would say the comments even reportedly made her being nervous doing the job reveal that maybe she wasn't up to it. I would suspect the job of on-set armorer probably isn't a difficult one, but is one of high importance to do it right.

*Note, I'm talking about her fashion choices. Not her age, race, sex, or any other category.

I doubt that a person's fashion choices are a reliable indicator of either their politics or their level of knowledge in a particular field.

 

[Tantalum]

I had no idea what this woman looked like (because why does it matter?) but I Google image searched it. Nothing about it to me screamed "she shouldn't be near guns!" if anything she's got sort of a Mad Max cyberpunk dystopian future thing going on.. I see nothing wrong with it

While I do believe, on principle as the armorer, that if anyone bears the most responsibility in this it's her, I also think they're reading too much into the whole "not sure I was ready" comment

Tons of things are context relevant. How many people have posted here before a check ride expressing some doubt if they're ready. It's got to be intimidating having to follow in your father's footsteps and be the main "gun person" on a Hollywood film set. Where, mind you, directors, producers, aren't always the easiest to work with, especially people with notoriously short fuses like Baldwin


Can you image after an accident the news runs stories "pilot was nervous before his instrument check ride" .. obviously.

 

[wanttaja]

While I do believe, on principle as the armorer, that if anyone bears the most responsibility in this it's her, I also think they're reading too much into the whole "not sure I was ready" comment

Based on what was posted here, I wonder, too, about her willingness to enter her father's career field. Kinda sounds like she was pressured to "fill her father's shoes." Hate to hear that. If one were reading an NTSB accident report, and it was mentioned that the pilot had been uncertain about becoming a pilot....sheesh.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[wanttaja]

Any bets on when the last post on this doesn't make Page 1 of Recent Posts?

C'mon.... mixes guns, liberal vs. conservative politics, media bias, misogynism, civil law, criminal law, and a good 'ol flame war. Nothing about aviation, though, but some of us have tried. It'll be a page one until the lock.

Ron "IBTL" Wanttaja

 

[Tantalum]

and it was mentioned that the pilot had been uncertain about becoming a pilot

fair point.. I'm sure there was a lot of pressure

 

[Tantalum]

We needed something else after PM stopped posting daily videos.

 

[Timbeck2]

Welp....you fellas solved it yet?

<---- waiting for this thread to sink to the bottom of the pile.

 

[Lachlan]

On what do you base this conclusion? If it's based on what you've seen on film, well, we've all seen dinosaurs and aliens on film.

And yet, some of you still don’t believe.

 

[BrianNC]

 

[Lindberg]

I doubt that a person's fashion choices are a reliable indicator of either their politics or their level of knowledge in a particular field.

A person's anything choices may be an indicator of things like decision making and judgment though.