Alec Baldwin shoots and kills cinematographer.

2-Bit Speed said:
I think modern S&W (and Colt, I believe) revolvers use a hammer block that drops only when the trigger is pulled. Same purposed as the Ruger transfer bar, but works in reverse.
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This was a Pietta SAA copy. Some of them have a transfer bar safety, some dont.
 
weilke said:
This was a Pietta SAA copy. Some of them have a transfer bar safety, some dont.
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Can you link to an article that specifies that? Everything I've seen has been uselessly vague.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
Can you link to an article that specifies that? Everything I've seen has been uselessly vague.
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Somewhere along the way, an article linked to a copy of a cause statement for a search warrant The county sheriff during a press conference stated that it was a F.lli Pietta in .45 LC.
 
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Salty said:
The more he speaks the more guilty he sounds.
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PaulS said:
I know, what has happened to manning up and accepting responsibility.
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Admitting responsibility may land him in jail and he may have just found out that the settlement could exceed insurance coverage leaving him monetarily responsible personally ...

His stupid statement reminds me of the surgeons I worked with at the Level 1 here locally years ago. They'd laugh after interviewing the patient and ALL had the same "joke" which was:

"Have you ever noticed that these gun shot wounds and guys caught masterbating all say the same thing? It just went off on it's own while cleaning it."
 
Whilst I've not commented too much on this train wreck (that I have started), this quote from the Wiki article on Rust is interesting: When asked about his gun slinging and horse riding skills, he [Baldwin] said: "They're always at the ready. I'm an actor of the old school. So if you read my resume – my motorcycle riding, my French, juggling, my horseback riding, my gunplay – is all right at my fingertips at all times."
I predict little in the way of legal consequences, much in the way of money changing hands, as have others.
 
geezer said:
Since this event, I have watched a large number of various quality western movies, paying attention to the practices on those sets, and find that when an actor pulls the trigger while pointing the gun, rifle or pistol, at another actor, there is no recoil. The BANG and smoke are added in the lab.
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Lemme get this straight: You're saying all the cowboy TV shows and movies in the 50s through 70s added smoke in post-production? Really? Star Trek would use a lot of its post-production budget just drawing a bright light when a phaser fired. Doubt Bonanza, Have Gun Will Travel, and (pardon the pun) Gunsmoke would have added smoke afterwards.

NOISE...yes. Anybody that's actually shot firearms knows they sound different from the "standardized" sound Hollywood uses. But diddling an audio track is much simpler than a pinpoint overlay of smoke on the film.

As far as the recoil is concerned, they were probably using small squibs that didn't have any kick, just dumped out the requisite smoke.

geezer said:
Firing from horseback is the same, the horse never flinches, or even twitches its ears. The exception is movies made in the '30's or '20's.
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One word: "Cavalry."

For over 500 years, cavalry horses were trained not to react to gunfire, even when their riders were shooting. John S. Mosby made a very big deal in his autobiography how he'd had his men dump sabers for carrying multiple revolvers. Seemed to work OK for him.

Were I training horses for use in Hollywood Westerns fifty years ago, I'd surely get them accustomed to firearms. Nowadays, with so few Westerns made, they probably don't do it as much.

Ron Wanttaja
 
danhagan said:
Admitting responsibility may land him in jail and he may have just found out that the settlement could exceed insurance coverage leaving him monetarily responsible personally ...

His stupid statement reminds me of the surgeons I worked with at the Level 1 here locally years ago. They'd laugh after interviewing the patient and ALL had the same "joke" which was:

"Have you ever noticed that these gun shot wounds and guys caught masterbating all say the same thing? It just went off on it's own while cleaning it."
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Based on his quote, guilty, just a matter of manslaughter or murder.
 
Rushie said:
...He’s still culpable because he shouldn’t have pointed it without there being the protective barrier in front of the camera person, or a robot camera, and as producer shouldn’t have cut corners by hiring a cheaper inexperienced armorer....
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IMDB lists over a dozen people as producers of the film. Do we know that Baldwin was the one making the hiring decisions?

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11001074/fullcredits/?ref_=tt_ql_cl
 
weilke said:
Somewhere along the way, an article linked to a copy of a cause statement for a search warrant The county sheriff during a press conference stated that it was a Fili Pietta SPA in .45 LC.
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Given the location, they may very well have reported it correctly.
In NJ the police and the press simply refer to all firearms as assault rifles.
 
......
 
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2-Bit Speed said:
I think modern S&W (and Colt, I believe) revolvers use a hammer block that drops only when the trigger is pulled. Same purposed as the Ruger transfer bar, but works in reverse.
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Not in the Smith's I have.
 
The S&W uses a modification of the half cock notch. The hammer can not fall on the primer unless the trigger is pulled, from any point after about a quarter of an inch. Below that point, there is not enough inertia to fire a primer.

Internally, they are more complex than the old single actions, but the result is similar.
 
wanttaja said:
As far as the recoil is concerned, they were probably using small squibs that didn't have any kick, just dumped out the requisite smoke.
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Physics. Recoil is an equal and opposite reaction to the force applied to the projectile. F=MA. No projectile, no mass, no force, no recoil. Blanks do not kick.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Physics. Recoil is an equal and opposite reaction to the force applied to the projectile. F=MA. No projectile, no mass, no force, no recoil. Blanks do not kick.
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Not entirely, but the recoil is barely noticeable. There is still some reaction mass (combustion gasses) ejected forward. Almost no M but plenty of A.
 
wanttaja said:
Lemme get this straight: You're saying all the cowboy TV shows and movies in the 50s through 70s added smoke in post-production? Really? Star Trek would use a lot of its post-production budget just drawing a bright light when a phaser fired. Doubt Bonanza, Have Gun Will Travel, and (pardon the pun) Gunsmoke would have added smoke afterwards.

NOISE...yes. Anybody that's actually shot firearms knows they sound different from the "standardized" sound Hollywood uses. But diddling an audio track is much simpler than a pinpoint overlay of smoke on the film.

As far as the recoil is concerned, they were probably using small squibs that didn't have any kick, just dumped out the requisite smoke.



One word: "Cavalry."

For over 500 years, cavalry horses were trained not to react to gunfire, even when their riders were shooting. John S. Mosby made a very big deal in his autobiography how he'd had his men dump sabers for carrying multiple revolvers. Seemed to work OK for him.

Were I training horses for use in Hollywood Westerns fifty years ago, I'd surely get them accustomed to firearms. Nowadays, with so few Westerns made, they probably don't do it as much.

Ron Wanttaja
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I can tell you from experience as a foxhunter that some horses just naturally don't give a damn about gunfire. A lot of whips and Masters carry sidearms to force hounds off a line, or to euthanize a horse, hound or fox as circumstances dictate.(No actual foxhunters, as yet!) I've sat on horses with no training not 5 yards away from a live round being fired and they stood without reaction. I've also sat on horses that took off like out of a gate from 100 yards away.

They are all individuals. It behooves you to find out which kind you have earlier in the game.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
I can tell you from experience as a foxhunter that some horses just naturally don't give a damn about gunfire. A lot of whips and Masters carry sidearms to force hounds off a line, or to euthanize a horse, hound or fox as circumstances dictate.(No actual foxhunters, as yet!) I've sat on horses with no training not 5 yards away from a live round being fired and they stood without reaction. I've also sat on horses that took off like out of a gate from 100 yards away.

They are all individuals. It behooves you to find out which kind you have earlier in the game.
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Behooves, I see what you did there, kudos.
 
9:38 pm EST Dec. 2, 2021
CHARLES TREPANY,PAMELA AVILA | USA TODAY

Alex:
“I’m holding the gun where she told me to hold it," Baldwin told George Stephanopoulos in an ABC special that aired Thursday night and will stream afterward on Hulu. "In the scene (being rehearsed) I would have cocked the gun, and I said, ‘Do you want to see that? And she said yes. So I take the gun and I sort of cock the gun, I’m not going to pull the trigger."

Hutchins told him to "tilt it down a little bit," he said. "I cock the gun and I go, ‘Can you see that? Can you see that? Can you see that?’ And I let go of the hammer of the gun and the gun goes off."
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
9:38 pm EST Dec. 2, 2021
CHARLES TREPANY,PAMELA AVILA | USA TODAY

Alex:
“I’m holding the gun where she told me to hold it," Baldwin told George Stephanopoulos in an ABC special that aired Thursday night and will stream afterward on Hulu. "In the scene (being rehearsed) I would have cocked the gun, and I said, ‘Do you want to see that? And she said yes. So I take the gun and I sort of cock the gun, I’m not going to pull the trigger."

Hutchins told him to "tilt it down a little bit," he said. "I cock the gun and I go, ‘Can you see that? Can you see that? Can you see that?’ And I let go of the hammer of the gun and the gun goes off."
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So it's somewhere between her fault and an act of god. What an ###.
 
Palmpilot said:
IMDB lists over a dozen people as producers of the film. Do we know that Baldwin was the one making the hiring decisions?

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11001074/fullcredits/?ref_=tt_ql_cl
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Group responsibility means no one is responsible. It’s how they justified the Holocaust. The more people involved, the more you spread the blame around, the less any one individual will admit fault.

Here’s a great book on how that works:
https://www.amazon.com/Evil-Inside-Human-Violence-Cruelty/dp/0805071652
 
weilke said:
So it's somewhere between her fault and an act of god. What an ###.
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Yep.

For a long, long time, I’ve had a rule that applies to everyone I come in contact with, including friends, coworkers, and family…I will always respect being told “I’m not in a position to discuss (blank)”. I may not like that answer, but I can respect the reasons why (legal, privacy, etc). However, if you’re going to say “I’ll tell you what happened,” it damn well better be the truth.

Baldwin has a lot of reasons why he may need to not admit to what actually occurred-he should’ve kept his mouth shut.
 
Rushie said:
Group responsibility means no one is responsible. It’s how they justified the Holocaust. The more people involved, the more you spread the blame around, the less any one individual will admit fault.

Here’s a great book on how that works:
https://www.amazon.com/Evil-Inside-Human-Violence-Cruelty/dp/0805071652
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The concept is evil in other ways as well. Everyone is special, therefore nobody is special. Equality in the real world is not as great as it sounds in the imaginary world. And it is a direct contradiction to the concept of diversity. It's a short step from "equality" to "prejudice". "xxx people are all yyy".

But back to the topic. The disease of the "agile methodology" has caused this in software development. Everyone on the team is an equal and is responsible for everything the team does. And as you said, that means nobody has responsibility.
 
Doug Reid said:
I doubt Baldwin has anything to worry about now since an SUV recently killed 6 people at a Christmas parade...the gun is responsible all by itself.
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If only we could find a DA brave enough bring criminal charges against the gun...
 
I share many of the same political ideologies as Baldwin and have enjoyed watching him as an actor. That said, in my opinion he does have culpability in the “accident”. Even if someone had live ammo on set who shouldn’t have and even if someone handed the gun to him and declared it safe or cold or whatever, I believe he should have verified that fact before pointing it at another person. And that is so easy to do with a revolver versus a semiautomatic. No excuse.

Initially I felt bad for him as he does appear to have been only one link in a very bad chain and I believe others share in the blame, but ever since he started trying to shift blame to others and the gun, I have lost all sympathy for the man.

But maybe if he goes to trial, he can take the stand and break down and cry like a little girly man and get off. It seems to work for some.

What I would like to know however is why this case seems to be the only gun death that bothers anyone on here or at least enough to have a thread with so many posts. Has there been a thread on Kenosha Kyle, the Georgia Crackers, cops shooting a man in a wheelchair in the back, or recent school shootings? Or is this case just too much to resist due to Baldwin’s beliefs? No need to answer, I already know the answer.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I share many of the same political ideologies as Baldwin and have enjoyed watching him as an actor. That said, in my opinion he does have culpability in the “accident”. Even if someone had live ammo on set who shouldn’t have and even if someone handed the gun to him and declared it safe or cold or whatever, I believe he should have verified that fact before pointing it at another person. And that is so easy to do with a revolver versus a semiautomatic. No excuse.

Initially I felt bad for him as he does appear to have been only one link in a very bad chain and I believe others share in the blame, but ever since he started trying to shift blame to others and the gun, I have lost all sympathy for the man.

But maybe if he goes to trial, he can take the stand and break down and cry like a little girly man and get off. It seems to work for some.

What I would like to know however is why this case seems to be the only gun death that bothers anyone on here or at least enough to have a thread with so many posts. Has there been a thread on Kenosha Kyle, the Georgia Crackers, cops shooting a man in a wheelchair in the back, or recent school shootings? Or is this case just too much to resist due to Baldwin’s beliefs? No need to answer, I already know the answer.
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You don’t think it’s appropriate that more attention is paid to an staunchly anti gun person killing someone with a gun? Okey dokey then.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I share many of the same political ideologies as Baldwin and have enjoyed watching him as an actor. That said, in my opinion he does have culpability in the “accident”. Even if someone had live ammo on set who shouldn’t have and even if someone handed the gun to him and declared it safe or cold or whatever, I believe he should have verified that fact before pointing it at another person. And that is so easy to do with a revolver versus a semiautomatic. No excuse.

Initially I felt bad for him as he does appear to have been only one link in a very bad chain and I believe others share in the blame, but ever since he started trying to shift blame to others and the gun, I have lost all sympathy for the man.

But maybe if he goes to trial, he can take the stand and break down and cry like a little girly man and get off. It seems to work for some.

What I would like to know however is why this case seems to be the only gun death that bothers anyone on here or at least enough to have a thread with so many posts. Has there been a thread on Kenosha Kyle, the Georgia Crackers, cops shooting a man in a wheelchair in the back, or recent school shootings? Or is this case just too much to resist due to Baldwin’s beliefs? No need to answer, I already know the answer.
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I probably shouldn't, but I will explain how I'm thinking:
1. Famous person with a habit of publicly characterizing all gun owners as evil people who have the intent to harm innocent bystanders. The fact that he killed a *truly* innocent bystander with a gun is tragic irony.
2. It's like watching a pile-up on the interstate. And the story keeps developing into more and more of a morass of stupidity. On many, many sides.
3. It shouldn't have happened. There were NO extenuating circumstances that even begin to explain how this happened. No other party threatening, no life or death situations, just ...nothing.
4. Someone made a thread about it. And it's not devolved into political mudslinging. Yet, at least.

As far as the other gun-related incidents you related, I don't know about most of them. Yes, I'm a wee bit of an ostrich, but I like my sanity and would like to maintain it, so I don't read much news until something piques my curiousity. Oh, and by the way, Kyle from Kenosha didn't kill an innocent bystander. He made a conscious choice to protect himself against men who were trying to attack him. I hope that if I am ever in a self defense situation and end up in court, you will forgive my breakdown, because I will be breaking down remembering the terror of that moment, and I'm not even a kid. And that one has been so highly politicized that I'm sure it would have been locked nearly immediately, anyway. I don't have a clue about any of the other situations, so I'm not going to put myself at risk of spreading false information by commenting on them.

My two cents. Worth what you paid for them.
 
BladeSlap said:
Based on his quote, guilty, just a matter of manslaughter or murder.
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He's considered rich, in the right party, and active on Twitter ... probation will be the max if any sentence at all ...

2-Bit Speed said:
If only we could find a DA brave enough bring criminal charges against the gun...
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I thought the Sandy Hook shooting had a lawsuit against Remmington or Smith and Wesson?
 
wanttaja said:
Lemme get this straight: You're saying all the cowboy TV shows and movies in the 50s through 70s added smoke in post-production? Really? ….

Ron Wanttaja
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Just for giggles, part of the reason James Cagney helped found the SAG was to eliminate the use of live ammunition in movies.
 
SkyChaser said:
I probably shouldn't, but I will explain how I'm thinking:
1. Famous person with a habit of publicly characterizing all gun owners as evil people who have the intent to harm innocent bystanders. The fact that he killed a *truly* innocent bystander with a gun is tragic irony.
2. It's like watching a pile-up on the interstate. And the story keeps developing into more and more of a morass of stupidity. On many, many sides.
3. It shouldn't have happened. There were NO extenuating circumstances that even begin to explain how this happened. No other party threatening, no life or death situations, just ...nothing.
4. Someone made a thread about it. And it's not devolved into political mudslinging. Yet, at least.

As far as the other gun-related incidents you related, I don't know about most of them. Yes, I'm a wee bit of an ostrich, but I like my sanity and would like to maintain it, so I don't read much news until something piques my curiousity. Oh, and by the way, Kyle from Kenosha didn't kill an innocent bystander. He made a conscious choice to protect himself against men who were trying to attack him. I hope that if I am ever in a self defense situation and end up in court, you will forgive my breakdown, because I will be breaking down remembering the terror of that moment, and I'm not even a kid. And that one has been so highly politicized that I'm sure it would have been locked nearly immediately, anyway. I don't have a clue about any of the other situations, so I'm not going to put myself at risk of spreading false information by commenting on them.

My two cents. Worth what you paid for them.
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Everytime you post it reaffirms my faith in younger generations.
 
What I don't get is why anyone values the opinion of people who's only job is to parrot the words of other people. I mean, Tom Hanks seems like a decent guy, and he did a great job as Sully, but what would I possibly ask Tom Hanks about? I'd much rather have a conversation with a guy that landed an airplane on the Hudson.

Being famous for the sake of being famous seems silly. I know that's a thing, but to me that part of their life is the same as Charlie Sheen, the little lizard in the insurance commercials, or Barney Rubble.
 
I personally have never heard of any stance on guns by AB. If asked I could guess a leaning but I suspect if I looked I would find he was not nearly as staunchly anti as some would portray, but mostly pro-regulation. Did he ever say"I want to get their guns first...?" To whatever degree he is I guess it must feel like poetic justice, about like how I do with someone that claims to be a brilliant self made businessman found to be a liar with a fraction of stated worth, living off of cash flow and later charged with criminal fraud. Or the religious lush and philanderer....

Of course the ammo being available on set is fault one...but how many people have been harmed as the bystander from a weapon malfunction and the operator charged as a result of that malfunction?
How many people here that despise AB have even considered that the gun had a worn out sear and he never actually touched the trigger? About as many that think a dummy round can't look exactly like a live round I suspect. The Sheriff surly has both and will let us know.
 
Albany Tom said:
What I don't get is why anyone values the opinion of people who's only job is to parrot the words of other people. I mean, Tom Hanks seems like a decent guy, and he did a great job as Sully, but what would I possibly ask Tom Hanks about? I'd much rather have a conversation with a guy that landed an airplane on the Hudson.

Being famous for the sake of being famous seems silly. I know that's a thing, but to me that part of their life is the same as Charlie Sheen, the little lizard in the insurance commercials, or Barney Rubble.
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Think deeper, are you saying you don't value the opinion based on their experiences, knowledge or education of another person? Thats a bigger problem in America.
There is a certain talent that is to be respected, especially if you've ever tried similar undertakings, but I hear ya. Add John "Marion" Wayne to the list. But famous from fame is something even lower than most actors.

SkyDog58 said:
the Georgia Crackers... No need to answer, I already know the answer.
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Whether you know it or not, you used one of the original early meanings of the phrase. Funny how terms can turn into insults and even vice versa over time. Hoosiers, Sooners, Okies, Coon Arses, Hillbillies... I hear some people say "damn right Im a cracker" these days. Centuries ago anyone that went to school and never even passed through Georgia couldn't be a cracker.
 
Robert Gee said:
About as many that think a dummy round can't look exactly like a live round I suspect.
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The gun wasn't supposed to be loaded with ANYTHING for what they were doing at the time. That would have been extremely easy to verify. And again, the original story was one of negligence and general haphazard environment with a lack of supervision and control by virtually everyone on the production.

What Baldwin's interview now introduces is a flat out refusal to accept ANY responsibility. He is living in a fantasy land. For starters, single action guns don't work the way Baldwin was describing. Even if we assume the gun was completely defective, WHO would pull the trigger back and then just let it go???

I'm not a big cancel culture kind of guy, but this here is a case where the actor in question should never be seen in the business again.

I'd say Bill Cosby has a better chance of returning to the business than AB.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The gun wasn't supposed to be loaded with ANYTHING for what they were doing at the time. That would have been extremely easy to verify.
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For the rehearsal yes. For a close up shoot looking straight at the gun it had to be loaded with dummy rounds .
 
weilke said:
For the rehearsal yes. For a close up shoot looking straight at the gun it had to be loaded with dummy rounds .
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The initial reports made it sound like this was supposed to be more of a rehearsal scene than actual shoot. At this point I don’t think anyone in that production.l team has their story straight.
 
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