Airspeed is... WTF... alive?

[Twin_Flyer]

No need to have my back... I may apparently be submissive (?!! lol), but apparently I am also holier than thou, so that must mean I think I am amazing enough to defend myself. Unless of couse my CFI says I can't, then I have to do what he says without question because I hide behind authority and he is a God.

This thread is very helpful. I'm learning about myself today!

Think I'm going to make fish for dinner tonight. Wanna come over, MsCard?

Score...
Your turn Phillip...

 

[mscard88]

Think I'm going to make fish for dinner tonight. Wanna come over, MsCard?

I'm in! Or are you calling me Ms Card?

 

[Kritchlow]

I'm confused. To those who are afraid to take their eyes off the runway at slow speed, don't you glance at AS for rotation speed?
I know I always did when I was single pilot.

 

[flyingron]

I've had blocked pitot twice and I can tell you, it never took much to realize the airspeed wasn't coming alive, certainly not past halfway down the runway.

I've had a blocked static a couple of times. That one causes a little head scratching but not much (and all the inane, reflex callouts aren't going to fix that either).

 

[mscard88]

I'm confused. To those who are afraid to take their eyes off the runway at slow speed, don't you glance at AS for rotation speed?
I know I always did when I was single pilot.

One should be able to feel when she's ready to alight.

But nothing wrong glancing at the ASI either especially if doing a short field takeoff.

 

[Kritchlow]

One should be able to feel when she's ready to alight.

But nothing wrong glancing at the ASI either especially if doing a short field takeoff.

When I flew single pilot I always glanced back and forth. When I was teaching I also taught to glance back and forth. I see only good with that technique.

 

[RoscoeT]

...don't you glance at AS for rotation speed?

Only to offer a minority perspective, I have never done that in a tailwheel airplane. Raise the tail a little tail low, hold that attitude, let her fly off when she's ready. Works perfectly for any W&B and DA condition.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Only to offer a minority perspective, I have never done that in a tailwheel airplane. Raise the tail a little tail low, hold that attitude, let her fly off when she's ready. Works perfectly for any W&B and DA condition.

I take it you haven't flown any ME tailwheels?

 

[Coloradokevin]

My rolling check is simple:

Oil Pressure
Oil Temp
Airspeed
RPM (self evident, but I still glance at it)

This all takes probably about a second total, so why wouldn't I want this information before I urge an aircraft away from the surly bonds of earth?

 

[RoscoeT]

I take it you haven't flown any ME tailwheels?

To make the same point you made on an earlier post of mine, how many of us do that? I think the problem with this discussion is that one size does not fit all.

 

[Fearless Tower]

To make the same point you made on an earlier post of mine, how many of us do that?

More than your example.

 

[RoscoeT]

More than your example.

Well I guess you'd have to make a poll asking how many people here fly Beech 18's and DC-3's compared to high performance SE tailwheel airplanes (not just Pitts') on narrow runways. I'd bet on the latter.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I'm confused. To those who are afraid to take their eyes off the runway at slow speed, don't you glance at AS for rotation speed?
I know I always did when I was single pilot.

I am not "afraid" of anything. I do check the panel. But, no, I don't look at the ASI for rotation speed. If the airplane is ready to fly, I let it fly. Knowing what number the ASI is pointing to does not help one way or the other. But then, I drive a little taildragger and not a Boeing 737.

 

[Kritchlow]

I am not "afraid" of anything. I do check the panel. But, no, I don't look at the ASI for rotation speed. If the airplane is ready to fly, I let it fly. Knowing what number the ASI is pointing to does not help one way or the other. But then, I drive a little taildragger and not a Boeing 737.

Well, when I taught in the small Cessna's I taught to rotate at a particular airspeed. Are instructors no longer doing that in small airplanes? It's been a while, but I figured rotating would be here for a while.

 

[Coloradokevin]

Well, when I taught in the small Cessna's I taught to rotate at a particular airspeed. Are instructors no longer doing that in small airplanes? It's been a while, but I figured rotating would be here for a while.

I just did my BFR at KBJC back in October. They're teaching it the same way I learned in Ohio 15 years ago. I mean, I'm sure I could takeoff without the ASI if I had to, but I'd certainly rather know that I've attained a speed at which my aircraft is willing to fly, instead of just guessing and dragging it into the air too soon.

 

[Kritchlow]

I just did my BFR at KBJC back in October. They're teaching it the same way I learned in Ohio 15 years ago. I mean, I'm sure I could takeoff without the ASI if I had to, but I'd certainly rather know that I've attained a speed at which my aircraft is willing to fly, instead of just guessing and dragging it into the air too soon.

Good to hear!!!

 

[denverpilot]

Couple of thoughts:

The person lamenting the person who looks inside at the ASI and never looks back out again: That person has a SCAN problem. You don't stare at the damned thing for an "alive" call out.

For the folks saying they want the ASI to read correctly or they can't go flying: Are you trimmed such that the airplane will fly off naturally on its own if left alone?

^^^ These things done right should COMPLIMENT each other during a takeoff. They're not a "do only one of them" option, when done well.

 

[RoscoeT]

Well, when I taught in the small Cessna's I taught to rotate at a particular airspeed. Are instructors no longer doing that in small airplanes? It's been a while, but I figured rotating would be here for a while.

Here we are again talking one size fits all. Looking at the ASI in a **single engine** tailwheel airplane on takeoff is pointless other than to satisfy your curiosity as to whether it works or not. You do not need to "rotate". All you have to do is hold an attitude and let it fly off. This IS commonly taught in TW airplanes. There's no guessing about it. It's an artful flying technique rather than running along tail high, waiting for some magic number to appear on the ASI, and then hauling back on the yoke stick. That's mechanical flying. I have flown light (trike) Cessnas too. They fly off the ground just fine with the nose wheel held 6" off the runway. It's not relegated to just that stupid 'soft field' PTS stuff. To each their own.

 

[Kritchlow]

Here we are again talking one size fits all. Looking at the ASI in a **single engine** tailwheel airplane on takeoff is pointless other than to satisfy your curiosity as to whether it works or not. You do not need to "rotate". All you have to do is hold an attitude and let it fly off. This IS commonly taught in TW airplanes. There's no guessing about it. It's an artful flying technique rather than running along tail high, waiting for some magic number to appear on the ASI, and then hauling back on the yoke stick. That's mechanical flying. I have flown light (trike) Cessnas too. They fly off the ground just fine with the nose wheel held 6" off the runway. It's not relegated to just that stupid 'soft field' PTS stuff. To each their own.

Never flew a tailwheel (in earnest). That said I will tailor my position for the masses, not the few that can fly off without rotating.
But, you even said it yourself.. "To make sure it works". That's a huge point many here are making.

 

[Coloradokevin]

Here we are again talking one size fits all. Looking at the ASI in a **single engine** tailwheel airplane on takeoff is pointless other than to satisfy your curiosity as to whether it works or not. You do not need to "rotate". All you have to do is hold an attitude and let it fly off. This IS commonly taught in TW airplanes. There's no guessing about it. It's an artful flying technique rather than running along tail high, waiting for some magic number to appear on the ASI, and then hauling back on the yoke stick. That's mechanical flying. I have flown light (trike) Cessnas too. They fly off the ground just fine with the nose wheel held 6" off the runway. It's not relegated to just that stupid 'soft field' PTS stuff. To each their own.

I'll preface my response by clarifying that I have exactly zero tailwheel time, but what you're saying seems to make sense from my layman's point of view on those aircraft… while it's hard to judge every control input from the sidelines, I will say that it does appear that most tail-dragger pilots assume a flight attitude with the tail off of the ground, and then let the aircraft take to the sky when it is ready to fly.

Personally, I find that raising the nose prematurely in a Cessna only lengthens your takeoff roll when compared to raising the nose once you've reached the ideal rotation speed.

As with most things in aviation, there are probably 10 different ways to do things correctly and safely, so please don't think that I'm saying that there's something wrong with a way other than that which I use!

 

[dtuuri]

Well, when I taught in the small Cessna's I taught to rotate at a particular airspeed. Are instructors no longer doing that in small airplanes? It's been a while, but I figured rotating would be here for a while.

I never heard of "rotating" until I flew a Learjet with a Vr speed. It made sense because the charted takeoff distance is based on attaining V2 @ 35' AGL after rotating at Vr. Can't raise the nose sooner because you might be below Vmcg and lose control in event of an engine failure. I don't see how "rotating" applies to single engine light airplanes. At least not in Ohio.

dtuuri

 

[Kritchlow]

I never heard of "rotating" until I flew a Learjet with a Vr speed. It made sense because the charted takeoff distance is based on attaining V2 @ 35' AGL after rotating at Vr. Can't raise the nose sooner because you might be below Vmcg and lose control in event of an engine failure. I don't see how "rotating" applies to single engine light airplanes. At least not in Ohio.

dtuuri

No kidding??

 

[Kritchlow]

Guess I've been out of the light airplane biz too long. I guess it is now improper to pull back on the stick to become airborne. Learn something new every day.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Well, when I taught in the small Cessna's I taught to rotate at a particular airspeed. Are instructors no longer doing that in small airplanes? It's been a while, but I figured rotating would be here for a while.

Well, back in the 1970's when I was learning in a small Cessna, it was pick up the tail and fly when it felt light on the gear. That method still seems to work in the small aircraft I've flow since with the exception that the tail is already up if you have a nosewheel and you actually have to apply a little back pressure on the yoke - as strange as that may seem.

 

[Kritchlow]

Well, back in the 1970's when I was learning in a small Cessna, it was pick up the tail and fly when it felt light on the gear. That method still seems to work in the small aircraft I've flow since with the exception that the tail is already up if you have a nosewheel and you actually have to apply a little back pressure on the yoke - as strange as that may seem.

Haha!!!! Thanks.... I thought so too. Apparently some here don't "rotate", even with a trike. Who knew?

 

[RoscoeT]

Personally, I find that raising the nose prematurely in a Cessna only lengthens your takeoff roll when compared to raising the nose once you've reached the ideal rotation speed.

You've precisely tested this? Most people I see raising the nose "prematurely" in Cessnas are trying to do the 'soft field' PTS thing where they suck the yoke in their gut and try to roll down the runway with the tie down ring nearly scraping the runway. Not necessary. You can feel when you can raise the nose wheel a few inches off the ground. You don't have to do it ASAP. It's like raising the tailwheel in a taildragger. You don't need to force it up ASAP with full forward stick. Nudge it up when it's ready, and hold a slight nose high attitude, let fly. If there was some monumental drag build-up, TW pilots wouldn't do it. I'd be curious the real difference in takeoff distance. It's been a long time since I've flown a trike Cessna.

 

[jordane93]

 

[Kritchlow]

You've precisely tested this? Most people I see raising the nose "prematurely" in Cessnas are trying to do the 'soft field' PTS thing where they suck the yoke in their gut and try to roll down the runway with the tie down ring nearly scraping the runway. Not necessary. You can feel when you can raise the nose wheel a few inches off the ground. Hold attitude, let fly. I'd be curious the real difference in takeoff distance. It's been a long time since I've flown a trike Cessna.

I bet it's significant...

 

[Coloradokevin]

You've precisely tested this? Most people I see raising the nose "prematurely" in Cessnas are trying to do the 'soft field' PTS thing where they suck the yoke in their gut and try to roll down the runway with the tie down ring nearly scraping the runway. Not necessary. You can feel when you can raise the nose wheel a few inches off the ground you don't have to do it ASAP. It's like raising the tailwheel in a taildragger. You don't need to force it up ASAP with full forward stick. Nudge it up when it's ready, and hold a slight nose high attitude, let fly. If there was some monumental drag build-up. TW pilots wouldn't do it. I'd be curious the real difference in takeoff distance. It's been a long time since I've flown a trike Cessna.

No, obviously I've never precisely tested this. But, most of this thread is speaking of 'gut feeling' sort of stuff anyway. And, among the pilots of the world, I certainly won't hold myself out there as an expert. I'm a relatively low-time pilot who took a lot of years off from flying between my initial training and the flying I've been doing in recent years.

I'm only speaking of the perspective I have in the cockpit. I like to leave earth once I know I'm at an appropriate speed to do so (whether we want to call that rotating, pulling back, flying away, or whatever else). Regardless of what we call it, I generally prefer to double check my gut feeling with the ASI before leaving the ground. But, again, that's just me… and I'm merely an everyday guy enjoying the sky when I can!

 

[mscard88]

The person lamenting the person who looks inside at the ASI and never looks back out again: That person has a SCAN problem. You don't stare at the damned thing for an "alive" call out.

For the folks saying they want the ASI to read correctly or they can't go flying: Are you trimmed such that the airplane will fly off naturally on its own if left alone?

^^^ These things done right should COMPLIMENT each other during a takeoff. They're not a "do only one of them" option, when done well.

This is it in a nutshell.

 

[dell30rb]

Guess I've been out of the light airplane biz too long. I guess it is now improper to pull back on the stick to become airborne. Learn something new every day.

The only difference is that no one uses the callout "rotate" or a specific airspeed. With you run of the mill trike GA plane, I get the power set, check the ASI and engine settings, start getting the nose light, lift the nosewheel and away you go.


Different planes demand different approaches. No I never looked at the airspeed on a J3 until at least 20agl. Same on the Swift. Neither afford you the opportunity. The J3 is almost a kite, the Swift is short coupled with a small rudder, free castering tailwheel and 7.7 lbs/hp power to weight solo. Its off the runway in 10 seconds and you are dragging a brake for the first 5 seconds to counteract the torque.

 

[Kritchlow]

The only difference is that no one uses the callout "rotate" or a specific airspeed. With you run of the mill trike GA plane, I get the power set, check the ASI and engine settings, start getting the nose light, lift the nosewheel and away you go.


Different planes demand different approaches. No I never looked at the airspeed on a J3 until at least 20agl. Same on the Swift. Neither afford you the opportunity. The J3 is almost a kite, the Swift is short coupled with a small rudder, free castering tailwheel and 7.7 lbs/hp power to weight solo. Its off the runway in 10 seconds and you are dragging a brake for the first 5 seconds to counteract the torque.

Well I have no doubt people don't actually say the word "rotate" if they're single pilot.. Lol!!!! Point is they do still rotate (in a trike).

 

[Fearless Tower]

Well I guess you'd have to make a poll asking how many people here fly Beech 18's and DC-3's compared to high performance SE tailwheel airplanes (not just Pitts') on narrow runways. I'd bet on the latter.

I'd bet there are more of those dinosaurs still flying than 30' wide runways.

Again, the bigger point is that it just isn't that hard to do. I started the habit when I was a student pilot. Never thought to avoid a quick glance at the ASI when I started flying tail wheels which helped when I moved up to the bigger multi engine tailwheels where you do need to look at the ASI.

Yes, I'll admit, that IF I was ever departing a 30' wide strip and I was at all concerned, the ASI would probably be the first thing I would ignore, but that would be the exception rather than the norm.

 

[Phillip]

The way I was taught was to just lighten up the nose when she is ready and she'll fly off on her own. For normal takeoffs I steal the glances on the ASI during the acceleration and make the nose light when it gets to that 50-55sh zone on the Cherokees and she'll fly when she is ready. When she is climbing I generally retrim for the attitude that gives me an acceptable climb performance and view over the nose. I don't look at ASI until I am in the pattern and about to throw out the flaps.

I generally in the same boat with Roscoe, in that pulling on the elevator prematurely adds to the drag without helping any. The one exception it is a soft field where you want to get the nose wheel light ASAP. I have to take this on faith since I've never had a chance to fly out of a muddy field.

I like the ColoradoKevin checklist, though I would push it to right after throttle forward. Although there is one 30' wide strip (88R) I regularly fly to for practice takeoffs and landings where I would not dare looking down for more than a really quick glance.

 

[mscard88]

For normal takeoffs I steal the glances on the ASI during the acceleration and make the nose light .

Huh?!

Thought you were saying you didn't do this.

 

[Sundancer]

You guys should start charging the OP for instruction. And EASL pointers. . .

 

[denverpilot]

The only difference is that no one uses the callout "rotate" or a specific airspeed. With you run of the mill trike GA plane, I get the power set, check the ASI and engine settings, start getting the nose light, lift the nosewheel and away you go.





Different planes demand different approaches. No I never looked at the airspeed on a J3 until at least 20agl. Same on the Swift. Neither afford you the opportunity. The J3 is almost a kite, the Swift is short coupled with a small rudder, free castering tailwheel and 7.7 lbs/hp power to weight solo. Its off the runway in 10 seconds and you are dragging a brake for the first 5 seconds to counteract the torque.

Hmm. I was taught to, since long long ago I was headed for cockpits with a crew in them, so I still do it. "55, rotate" in the 182.

It'll fly off before that with the STOL kit if I really want it to anyway, but you have to haul hard on the yoke if the CG is forward, like it usually is without rear seat pax or significant cargo back there.

After it lifts off, I call the Vx or Vy speed I want to climb out at. (And if I were in the retract I'd call the "positive rate, no runway remaining, gear up" call to myself, too. Or if I have a field ahead that would be used to land in if the engine barfed, I'll hold it to "500 AGL, gear up" if performance wasn't a problem. All depends on expected and real performance for that one. Same with the flaps.

It's just in how you're taught. I talk to myself as if there were another body over there who could throw levers for me.

Since it's a habit, for the two DPE rides I've ever done, they seem to appreciate the out loud play by play, since they're not guessing at what I'm doing or why I'm doing it.

I also call out my checklist use. Makes it easier for them to catch me not using it. Ha. Ask Jesse!

During the instrument training if I was overloaded the first thing to disappear was "climb checklist", and then a few minutes later he'd ask, "Do you want those cowl flaps open still? I think that's mentioned somewhere on a checklist..."

I'd have remembered to pull the prop back -- but the cowl flaps always give it away if I'm not using my checklist.

 

[Lindberg]

Here we are again talking one size fits all. Looking at the ASI in a **single engine** tailwheel airplane on takeoff is pointless other than to satisfy your curiosity as to whether it works or not. You do not need to "rotate". All you have to do is hold an attitude and let it fly off. This IS commonly taught in TW airplanes. There's no guessing about it. It's an artful flying technique rather than running along tail high, waiting for some magic number to appear on the ASI, and then hauling back on the yoke stick. That's mechanical flying. I have flown light (trike) Cessnas too. They fly off the ground just fine with the nose wheel held 6" off the runway. It's not relegated to just that stupid 'soft field' PTS stuff. To each their own.

The bottom line here is that there is not one technique that works for every pilot, plane, and mission. Calling out Airspeed Alive wouldn't work for me, since I can't even see the ASI in a taildragger if there's an adult up front. Good thing my CFI made me fly patterns and touch & goes with the whole panel covered.

 

[SkyHog]

No need to have my back... I may apparently be submissive (?!! lol), but apparently I am also holier than thou, so that must mean I think I am amazing enough to defend myself. Unless of couse my CFI says I can't, then I have to do what he says without question because I hide behind authority and he is a God.

This thread is very helpful. I'm learning about myself today!

Think I'm going to make fish for dinner tonight. Wanna come over, MsCard?

Your point is taken, however my comments have nothing to do with being submissive, and everything to do with the pure fact that we have a real problem with CFIs regurgitating bad info and pilots (of any sex) taking it as gospel because they're CFIs.

Not everything is an insult.

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

Your point is taken, however my comments have nothing to do with being submissive, and everything to do with the pure fact that we have a real problem with CFIs regurgitating bad info and pilots (of any sex) taking it as gospel because they're CFIs.

Not everything is an insult.

And not everything is about you. My response was to Phillip specifically calling me submissive. I think the word choice is strange at best, sexist at worst. Either way, it isn't remotely true.