Airspeed indicator

First of all, if you will please rewrite your document in English I'll be happy to respond. Complaint (which is a complaint, non compliant) is one example of your ignorant post. We don't have shinny things, they are shiny. Try again in English.

yeah i type fast and dont always correct my spelling ... but again I also do not care, because spelling something correctly doesnt mean i am write or wrong. and i never claimed that my spelling is 100% correct because i am speaking english for X years. Now, if you could educate us with regs and no BS, happy listen, else , take your ball and go home. geez ... and i thought i could actually learn something from someone else who apparently spent his entire life in aviation.
 
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the STC doesnt let you remove the ASI.
For some brevity on the subject, you are correct that the STC does not provide for the ASI removal. The STC is merely a design approval that Garmin chose offer for the installation of their G5. However, it is only valid if you choose to use it. Nothing more. A vendor does not determine what happens to your aircraft. You as owner are the final word. So the question is, can a person install a G5 in place of the OEM primary airspeed indicator without a Garmin STC, legally. The answer is yes. Now whether this installation falls under a minor alteration or a major alteration will require some additional research. However, considering the G5 has been approved as a replacement for other primary instruments, I would suspect it would not be much of a jump to include the airspeed indicator.;)
 
So the question is, can a person install a G5 in place of the OEM primary airspeed indicator without a Garmin STC, legally. The answer is yes.

Thanks for chiming in. So trying to understand here - G5 was not approved as a replacement for stock ASI. You are saying as a owner i can use it as a replacement for ASI. By that logic, G5 also displays VSI and ALT and TC, so technically it would be legal for me to have those replaced with G5 as well and that would be legal in a certificated aircraft?
 
Also, this would imply that the “non-primary” JPI engine instruments could be used as primary.
 
G5 was not approved as a replacement for stock ASI.
Based on what? It's important to understand how the "approval" system works.
so technically it would be legal for me to have those replaced with G5 as well and that would be legal in a certificated aircraft?
Why not? However, there is no single answer to your question. Each individual aircraft alteration to a stock TC'd aircraft requires a separate review. But for an extreme alteration example, do you believe it's possible to legally install a fully functioning Kohler commode in your aircraft, bought at Lowes, in your aircraft with the proper paperwork?
 
You mean FAA / FSDO approval?
What do you think is the difference between the JPI "primary" instruments and the non-primary instruments other than price?
certificated A/C and experimental .. isnt it?
If asking if there are "experimental" parts or instruments...no there is no such reference in the rules. Vendors designate items "experimental" to keep away from Part 3/Part 21 violations. While it's not really that simple in some cases, it's not that complex either.
 
What do you think is the difference between the JPI "primary" instruments and the non-primary instruments other than price?

I have often wondered that too. a probe is a probe, may be manufactured under different standards? donno. is there is a difference between G5 Experimental and Certificated one other than price? donno, and hence this discussion that went south

to get back to the original question on how all this started. One member asked "i wish G5 was primary for Airspeed", i am assuming he also meant along with AI / TC. Just because i installed G5 doesnt mean i can yank the entire 5 pack. what you are saying is, i can if FAA approves. Well thats my whole point... just because i installed G5 does not give me the flexibility of throwing away other stuff.

i believe what you are saying is, it can be done with a field approval, not without, which i am in agreement with. the ruling authority can decide to approve or disapprove a request. did i get that right?
 
Im quite interested to learn on the subject.

I was pretty convinced I could minor mod a G5. I then e-mailed the FSDO to clarify a hang up. The reply I got back said an EFIS install needed an STC. They also commented an product with an STC would not be appropriate to minor mod. I don't think the inspector I got was in the mood to talk further.
 
I have often wondered that too. a probe is a probe, may be manufactured under different standards? donno. is there is a difference between G5 Experimental and Certificated one other than price? donno, and hence this discussion that went south

to get back to the original question on how all this started. One member asked "i wish G5 was primary for Airspeed", i am assuming he also meant along with AI / TC. Just because i installed G5 doesnt mean i can yank the entire 5 pack. what you are saying is, i can if FAA approves. Well thats my whole point... just because i installed G5 does not give me the flexibility of throwing away other stuff.

i believe what you are saying is, it can be done with a field approval, not without, which i am in agreement with. the ruling authority can decide to approve or disapprove a request. did i get that right?
Dunno now, but originally the experimental G5 had features that the certified did not.
 
may be manufactured under different standards?
Doubtful. Do you think Garmin has two separate mfgr lines for the G5? Or do you think Garmin tweaks a G5's software and slaps a TSO tag on one when they get a "certified" order? Why not call Garmin and ask them?
Well thats my whole point... just because i installed G5 does not give me the flexibility of throwing away other stuff.
Only the Garmin STC does not give you that flexibility. If I had to guess, the reason Garmin did not include those other instruments was due to the type of STC (there are several variants) they elected to use where the base level design approval easily transferred across multiple TCs and models, i.e., the AML. Plus there is existing guidance that makes replacing AIs/DGs easier as well. But keep in mind, Part 21 requires a TC, STC, PMA, TSO, etc. for anyone (to include Garmin) to produce an item that may be installed on a TC'd aircraft. So a vendor has a different requirement than an owner who merely installs items on their aircraft.
i believe what you are saying is, it can be done with a field approval, not without, which i am in agreement with. the ruling authority can decide to approve or disapprove a request. did i get that right?
Yes. But don't know if an ASI change is a minor or major alteration, i.e., require a field approval. That would require more research.
I was pretty convinced I could minor mod a G5.
You can, but it depends on what you are replacing. If replacing a vacuum driven attitude indicator, and in some cases a vacuum DG, there is FAA guidance that gives relief to certain rules to include EFIS installations. Specifically to Att Inds, if you follow the requirement of an FAA policy memo you can install a G5 or RCA2610 as a minor alteration, i.e., simple logbook entry.
https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_...f1aeac86257ec1005b2fbc/$FILE/PS-ACE-23-08.pdf
but originally the experimental G5 had features that the certified did not.
It's my understanding in these types of situations the "exp" version is left wide open feature-wise. However, the "certified" version is tweaked to conform to a TSO or whatever which may disable certain features found in the "exp" version. Also, in some cases you may find OEM disclaimers in "certified" documentation that the unit may have certain features that do not conform to the TSO, etc. If I recall correctly, one of the differences between a JPI "primary" unit vs a non-prime unit is that system limit alerts are adjustable in a non unit whereas in the "primary" unit they are factory set to aircraft Ch 2 limitations and are not field adjustable. But I could have that wrong.
 
because spelling something correctly doesnt mean i am write or wrong.

write vs right. One means you wrote it, the other means you were correct when you wrote it. (and doesn't includes an ' ) We'll let CAPITALIZATION slide for now. <- that was me messing with a buddy

Now. On to the crux of the thing. Being "Primary" indicates you can remove the other. In the case of the G5 as AI you may NOT remove the "Primary" but you may rely completely on the G5 for actual flying. I would recommend cross checking the G5 with the Primary on each flight, and if you're a cloud buster you should partial panel yourself often to get used to the scan if your G5 is not indicating the same as the "Primary".

My panel (Experimental) has the mechanical Airspeed and Altimeter directly below the PFD.
 
Now we're getting somewhere with this conversation and I like the dialog going on.

As to the G5 experimental vs certificated instrument. The hardware, firmware and software are all the same . The only difference is the paperwork and the sticker on the cardboard box it comes in. This is how some have installed a single G5 in accordance with the STC and then purchased and installed the 2nd one using the cheaper experimental version. Their logic is that the STC does not state that it only applies to a single instrument but solely grants approval for the installation of the G5 in accordance with the STC. It does not state that it is for the AI, HSI or even list a serial number. Of course this should be taken up with your a&p ia since they will need to sign off but if you can convince them that this is the case then you are golden.

Now with the field approvals. These are something I am ignorant to but from what I have heard is that they are getting harder to come by these days. That being said I spoke with my FSDO a while back about the likelihood of getting a field approval for the installation of a rayjay TN setup on an E model mooney as 1 of the STCs, I believe the airframe one, is no longer available and he made it sound like he wouldn't have a problem approving one so long as I had all of the supporting original paperwork. One of my big questions is that if you get a field approval from your FSDO can another FSDO come back at a later date and determine that it is not valid and now deem the aircraft non airworthy due to an unapproved, via their determination, modification?
 
You can, but it depends on what you are replacing. If replacing a vacuum driven attitude indicator, and in some cases a vacuum DG, there is FAA guidance that gives relief to certain rules to include EFIS installations. Specifically to Att Inds, if you follow the requirement of an FAA policy memo you can install a G5 or RCA2610 as a minor alteration, i.e., simple logbook entry.
https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_...f1aeac86257ec1005b2fbc/$FILE/PS-ACE-23-08.pdf


Thank you for the very informative post. I am familiar with the document linked. My question for the FAA was multiple secondary functions as opposed to “A” secondary function. An FAA inspector friend gave me a verbal OK on that, but it's outside if his current role in the FAA to give me an official email on that.

Could you please expand on the “in some cases a DG”? I haven't found that yet.
 
Now we are truly going somewhere with this discussion.

the entire point of this discussion was related to the Garmin STC. So as far as that goes, we are clear that if you install G5 per the STC, you cannot remove your TSO-ed ASI. below is my ASI

upload_2020-4-25_11-29-55.png

Now - can i replace with something digital? probably, but not worth it in my opinion. Now if i can take our my crappy engine instruments, already have a JPI 830 .... i will be all over it
 
Don't want to spring for the 930?

*ducks*

sigh... I had actually planned for 900 right after i got the plane, my A&P talked me out of it. later i figured out why - that dude have never done one and didnt want to learn something new. it ended up costing more for me anyway since i recently changed my stock fuel gauges and indicator to something that actually shows how much fuel is there in the tank. Now if i can retain the probes and just replace the unit which as i understand is exactly same dimension as 830, in fact, 900 was there first take at it. i will do it in a heartbeat. changing the probes again ... nopes, not gonna happen.

Edit: forgot to mention, I fired that A&P/IA 's arse.. but thats for a different post
 
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If I recall correctly, one of the differences between a JPI "primary" unit vs a non-prime unit is that system limit alerts are adjustable in a non unit whereas in the "primary" unit they are factory set to aircraft Ch 2 limitations and are not field adjustable.
that is my understanding too
 
Could you please expand on the “in some cases a DG”? I haven't found that yet.
If you are looking for a specific FAA doc on DGs, I don't believe there is one. Attitude Inds were an outlier due to certification requirements for back-up capabilities, etc. and the Safer Skies initiatives. So the AIs got a special policy letter. DG replacement/alterations are more mainstream and follow the normal alteration route.
 
can i replace with something digital? probably, but not worth it in my opinion.
At the current price point of your average ASI, yes it's probably not a good bang for buck upgrade.
 
Thank you. I have finally torqued enough people off to make this a legitimate discussion. Salty, I apologize for getting on my high horse, but this discussion was headed for a graveyard spiral and I really thought it needed a kick into the light of day. Bell206, you are a light in the midst of darkness. Thank you for your well-thought out discussion. Those whom I criticized for English errors, forgive an old professor to whom it is important to convey correct writing in the language of the land. To all, let's bring this down to a conversation.

STC. Supplemental Type Certificate. Supplemental is the operative word. Attached (I hope, with the limited way of attaching files on this board) is the Type Certificate Data Sheet for my particular airplane, the blue-on-blue 1958 Cessna 182A. I could do the same for your aircraft, but let's just use this one for explanation. To change ANY item on this TCDS requires a STC. I defy anybody to find on my TCDS anything that requires an airspeed of any particular type, design, accuracy, or approval. The STC has become the unintended but convenient way of getting some sort of non-required "approval" for "stuff" we want to put on the airplane. I want to put an inspection plate on the airplane that came made out of 4041 aluminum with 5052 alloy. Did that number appear anywhere on the TCDS? No. Is that a major change to the airframe? That's MY call as the airframe mechanic. Does it require a 337 form? That's MY call as the mechanic, and I say No and No to the prior two questions. Am I on the hook if one of those inspection plates cracks, breaks off of the wing, jams in the elevator mechanisms, and causes a smoking hole in the ground? Yup. That's what it means when you get that little piece of paper that says, "The Administrator, placing great faith in the judgment of ..." grants you your A&P certificate, and in even larger typeface when you get the IA.

337. The most misunderstood document in aviation. Read the title. "MAJOR Repair or MAJOR Modification" (emphasis author). And several FAA documents go on to explain what MAJOR and MINOR mean. The most important phrase in all of the explanations is the differentiation between MAJOR and MINOR. In ALL documents, there are examples given, but the most important one of all is that it is the INSTALLING MECHANIC'S OPINION as to Major and Minor. OPINION. That's why it takes us longer than getting a college Master's degree to get an A&P and five times longer than THAT to get an IA. Forming that opinion and making a decision. Are A&P/IAs infallible in that opinion? So far as I am aware, only one human being claims infallibility and I doubt he knows the difference between a rivet and a sheet metal screw. But we try. Now, I'm sure you think that 337s go to the local FSDO where they are pored over with a fine tooth comb to find any possible breach of good practice. Guess again. We send them directly to the Records Branch in Oklahoma City that files them without any scrutiny whatsoever into your microfilmed/scanned file and there they will rest for all eternity until and unless they are uncovered to prove or disprove some sort of incident or accident for your aircraft.

Now, the question becomes. Would I install a G5 for my primary flight instrumentation in my aircraft or an aircraft I maintained. You Bet Y $ @$$ I would, and not think a thing of it. Would I do a 337? Not a chance in #e!!. Would I do a logbook entry for a minor modification and sign my name to it? Without a second thought.



How did I come by this "cowboy" maintenance mentality? In 1973, I wanted to produce avionics ... aircraft electronics on a budget. I researched the FARs and found a beauty loophole FAR 21.303 (b)(2) (recently rewritten to 21.2 or something like that). That FAR said you had to have Parts Manufacturing Approval ("PMA") to produce any part intended for use on aircraft UNLESS (and the UNLESS is the big part) you were the owner or the operator of the aircraft. I researched the genesis of the regulation and found that it was put into the regs back in the 1930s for cropdusters that dinged a wingtip and needed to replace it overnight. If cropdusters could replace wingtips, pilots could build radios. Oh, My God. They flew the Chief Maintenance Inspector and his crew out to San DIego and we had a rather incongenial meeting one morning. "You can't do that." "The hell I can't" "We'll get the General Counsel to write an opinion." "Please, go ahead."

General Counsel wrote a four page opinion that said that the FAA opened the door to this stuff in 1930, and not only is it legal, but it is permissible under these guidelines ....and three pages of guidelines followed.

Yeah, I've been interpreting FAA regulations for a **real** **long** time and I've come to the conclusion that most of them are in the minds of folks who don't have a real clue what they really say and FAA folks who are willing to promulgate that misinformation.

I may be wrong.

Jim
 

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Thank you. I have finally torqued enough people off to make this a legitimate discussion. Salty, I apologize for getting on my high horse, but this discussion was headed for a graveyard spiral and I really thought it needed a kick into the light of day. Bell206, you are a light in the midst of darkness. Thank you for your well-thought out discussion. Those whom I criticized for English errors, forgive an old professor to whom it is important to convey correct writing in the language of the land. To all, let's bring this down to a conversation.

STC. Supplemental Type Certificate. Supplemental is the operative word. Attached (I hope, with the limited way of attaching files on this board) is the Type Certificate Data Sheet for my particular airplane, the blue-on-blue 1958 Cessna 182A. I could do the same for your aircraft, but let's just use this one for explanation. To change ANY item on this TCDS requires a STC. I defy anybody to find on my TCDS anything that requires an airspeed of any particular type, design, accuracy, or approval. The STC has become the unintended but convenient way of getting some sort of non-required "approval" for "stuff" we want to put on the airplane. I want to put an inspection plate on the airplane that came made out of 4041 aluminum with 5052 alloy. Did that number appear anywhere on the TCDS? No. Is that a major change to the airframe? That's MY call as the airframe mechanic. Does it require a 337 form? That's MY call as the mechanic, and I say No and No to the prior two questions. Am I on the hook if one of those inspection plates cracks, breaks off of the wing, jams in the elevator mechanisms, and causes a smoking hole in the ground? Yup. That's what it means when you get that little piece of paper that says, "The Administrator, placing great faith in the judgment of ..." grants you your A&P certificate, and in even larger typeface when you get the IA.

337. The most misunderstood document in aviation. Read the title. "MAJOR Repair or MAJOR Modification" (emphasis author). And several FAA documents go on to explain what MAJOR and MINOR mean. The most important phrase in all of the explanations is the differentiation between MAJOR and MINOR. In ALL documents, there are examples given, but the most important one of all is that it is the INSTALLING MECHANIC'S OPINION as to Major and Minor. OPINION. That's why it takes us longer than getting a college Master's degree to get an A&P. Forming that opinion and making a decision. Are A&Ps infallible in that opinion? So far as I am aware, only one human being claims infallibility and I doubt he knows the difference between a rivet and a sheet metal screw. But we try. Now, I'm sure you think that 337s go to the local FSDO where they are pored over with a fine tooth comb to find any possible breach of good practice. Guess again. We send them directly to the Records Branch in Oklahoma City that files them without any scrutiny whatsoever into your microfilmed/scanned file and there they will rest for all eternity until and unless they are uncovered to prove or disprove some sort of incident or accident for your aircraft.

Now, the question becomes. Would I install a G5 for my primary flight instrumentation in my aircraft or an aircraft I maintained. You Bet Y $ @$$ I would, and not think a thing of it. Would I do a 337? Not a chance in #e!!. Would I do a logbook entry for a minor modification and sign my name to it? Without a second thought.



How did I come by this "cowboy" maintenance mentality? In 1973, I wanted to produce avionics ... aircraft electronics on a budget. I researched the FARs and found a beauty loophole FAR 21.303 (b)(2) (recently rewritten to 21.2 or something like that). That FAR said you had to have Parts Manufacturing Approval ("PMA") to produce any part intended for use on aircraft UNLESS (and the UNLESS is the big part) you were the owner or the operator of the aircraft. I researched the genesis of the regulation and found that it was put into the regs back in the 1930s for cropdusters that dinged a wingtip and needed to replace it overnight. If cropdusters could replace wingtips, pilots could build radios. Oh, My God. They flew the Chief Maintenance Inspector and his crew out to San DIego and we had a rather incongenial meeting one morning. "You can't do that." "The hell I can't" "We'll get the General Counsel to write an opinion." "Please, go ahead."

General Counsel wrote a four page opinion that said that the FAA opened the door to this stuff in 1930, and not only is it legal, but it is permissible under these guidelines ....and three pages of guidelines followed.

Yeah, I've been interpreting FAA regulations for a **real** **long** time and I've come to the conclusion that most of them are in the minds of folks who don't have a real clue what they really say and FAA folks who are willing to promulgate that misinformation.

I may be wrong.

Jim
Jim, you should offer your services to consult with an airplane owner’s AP or IA and walk them through the process or send them a little folder with all the items, regs, and requirements. It would be worth it for a lot of owners if they can convince their AP/IA to open up to using better instruments at lower cost. Once you get your AP on board, then it lasts a lifetime (which doesn’t help me a lot since my AP/IA is something like 85+).
 
Jim, you should offer your services to consult with an airplane owner’s AP or IA and walk them through the process or send them a little folder with all the items, regs, and requirements. It would be worth it for a lot of owners if they can convince their AP/IA to open up to using better instruments at lower cost. Once you get your AP on board, then it lasts a lifetime (which doesn’t help me a lot since my AP/IA is something like 85+).
Thank you, Matthew. Mine is only 76+. but I'me feeling the agony every time I have to climb down into a fuselage tunnel to inspect a turnbuckle. I'm trying to do something like this over on the "Electronics" board for avionics on some sort of video conferencing scheme. It is in the infancy, but we are trying to get it online. It would also work for mechanics. I'll see what I can do.

Thanks,

Jim
 
Can someone explain where it gets its data to explain the difference between the ground speed that it is calculating from the satellite, and the air that it is flying through to give true airspeed.

With an OAT probe and a GAD13 connected to the G5, it uses that information to calculate true airspeed along with wind direction and velocity. It's just math. The same stuff we used in training to calculate true airspeed only the G5 does it for you in real time.

And I asked the same question myself.
 
How did I come by this "cowboy" maintenance mentality? In 1973, I wanted to produce avionics ... aircraft electronics on a budget. I researched the FARs and found a beauty loophole FAR 21.303 (b)(2) (recently rewritten to 21.2 or something like that). That FAR said you had to have Parts Manufacturing Approval ("PMA") to produce any part intended for use on aircraft UNLESS (and the UNLESS is the big part) you were the owner or the operator of the aircraft. I researched the genesis of the regulation and found that it was put into the regs back in the 1930s for cropdusters that dinged a wingtip and needed to replace it overnight. If cropdusters could replace wingtips, pilots could build radios. Oh, My God. They flew the Chief Maintenance Inspector and his crew out to San DIego and we had a rather incongenial meeting one morning. "You can't do that." "The hell I can't" "We'll get the General Counsel to write an opinion." "Please, go ahead."

Jim


Thank you for your thoughts.

The loophole you mentioned seems reasonable. However; none of us are manufacturing our own G5. Are you applying that in this case?

My FSDO sent me this when I asked about a G5 install. The EFIS is labeled as STC. Whats interesting is that the EHSI is not. Based on this document my inspector suggested a G5 could only be installed as an STC. I guess he doesn't want to be on the hook for an decision that is mine to make.

https://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/other/major_repair_alteration_job-aid.pdf
 
If you want to get the FSDO involved, then yes the Inspector will probably take the most conservative route.

However, as previously stated, an A&P/IA can make a decision without the FAA being involved.
 
@weirdjim
Jim,

First of all, apology accepted and I apologize too for my aggravated response. My dad, he is perhaps your age or little older and he goes nuts looking at my spelling since I was about 4 year old. As you can imagine, it has never been my strong suite. Sometimes you will notice fairly strange grammar too. Apart from US English and UK English, I also read, write and speak 3 other languages and sometimes the thought process gets all jumbled. especially when I am thinking in a different language and writing in a different one. O well. All in good spirits.

Now back to topic.

Thank you for chiming in. I have read other posts from you and truly respect the level of knowledge you bring to the table. As @Bacho has mentioned, the loophole is reasonable one and i looked up my TCDS too, nowhere it says ASI needs to be TSO-ed. Having said that, there are couple of things that needs to be addressed:

  • I am the owner / operator , but i am not producing anything other than buying the entire packaged stuff from Garmin. Does PMA still apply?
  • My ASI is TSO-ed, can i replace that with a non-TSO-ed part since the plane came with it (mentioned in the POH)

I believe most AP/IA do not either understand this concept, or do not want to be in the cross hairs of Q&A with FAA or do not agree to this PMA rule when retrofitting indicators / avionics. If we can apply the logic you mentioned, there would not be much difference b/w Certificated and Experimental A/C in terms of what avionics or indicators we can use and thats definitely game changer and the entire "Avionics for Certificated Aircraft" would just disappear, well apart from a few like ADSB, GPS/Nav/Com etc

Best,
Priyo
 
The last words I want to hear before I answer in this NG is "I asked my local FSDO and they said ..."

If you want to work with your FSDO, please help yourself. And don't bother us here.

FSDOs are populated by employees who depend on their employment by depending on regulations that are not well understood and not well implemented. If you wish to put yourself into this environment, please just go to another newsgroup.

Thanks,

Jim
 
@weirdjim
J
I believe most AP/IA do not either understand this concept, or do not want to be in the cross hairs of Q&A with FAA or do not agree to this PMA rule when retrofitting indicators / avionics. If we can apply the logic you mentioned, there would not be much difference b/w Certificated and Experimental A/C in terms of what avionics or indicators we can use and thats definitely game changer and the entire "Avionics for Certificated Aircraft" would just disappear, well apart from a few like ADSB, GPS/Nav/Com etc

Best,
Priyo

Of COURSE, you GOTTIT. There are ABSOLUTELY NO differences between " certificated" and other instrumentation. NONE. I realize that I have been puncturing a balloon that the FAA has been promulgating since the end of WWII, but that is the truth of it

Jim
 
The last words I want to hear before I answer in this NG is "I asked my local FSDO and they said ..."

If you want to work with your FSDO, please help yourself. And don't bother us here.

FSDOs are populated by employees who depend on their employment by depending on regulations that are not well understood and not well implemented. If you wish to put yourself into this environment, please just go to another newsgroup.

Thanks,

Jim


If this is aimed at me, I get it. I was looking for more information. Info on these subjects is pretty scarce. Most of the mechanics I work with are afraid of their own shadow when it comes to compliance. So I try to gather information from all sides. It does not mean I insist they are right or the only way. I hope you can appreciate that.
 
If this is aimed at me, I get it. I was looking for more information. Info on these subjects is pretty scarce. Most of the mechanics I work with are afraid of their own shadow when it comes to compliance. So I try to gather information from all sides. It does not mean I insist they are right or the only way. I hope you can appreciate that.
It was not aimed at anybody in particular. In this mess the last thing I would do is embarrass or singular out people. Be well, my friend, and we can fight this FAA beuraucracy crap when this crap is all over.

Jim
 
It was not aimed at anybody in particular. In this mess the last thing I would do is embarrass or singular out people. Be well, my friend, and we can fight this FAA beuraucracy crap when this crap is all over.

Jim

Hi Jim,

Very interesting reading your thoughts on Major, Minor, 337, etc. You posted the 182 type certification in an earlier post.

Question: is the 182P certified under CAR-3 or Type 23? I cannot tell.

Thank you again for your perspectives.
 
i looked up my TCDS too, nowhere it says ASI needs to be TSO-ed.
FYI: all parts the holder of a Type Certificate (Type Design) uses on their aircraft are considered approved parts regardless if they have a TSO, PMA, or whatever. All original parts fall under 21.9(a)(1). Full stop. So a TCDS never needs to state whether a TSO, etc. part is required.

To add to weirdjims comments above and offer some tidbits to your other questions....
I am the owner / operator , but i am not producing anything other than buying the entire packaged stuff from Garmin. Does PMA still apply?
As I understand it, wierdjims "loophole" applies only to owner-produced parts per 21.9(a)(5) or the former 21.303 (b)(2). Full stop. PMAs, TSOs, etc. do not apply as an owner-produced part is consider approved also. He is the Heathkit of aviation for those who know what Heathkits are. In order for Garmin to produce that equipment and market it to you for install on your TC'd aircraft they are required to have an approval per 21.9. Full stop again. But how you install that Garmin equipment falls under Part 43.
My ASI is TSO-ed, can i replace that with a non-TSO-ed part since the plane came with it (mentioned in the POH)
The key word you use, replace, determines which type of part (TSO vs non-TSO) you can use. Part replacement as it is implied, and I believe stated in some obscure document, is the removal and installation of a part that conforms to an aircraft's type design. So to remain in conformity you would need an "approved" part to do so, i.e., a TSO or PMA or OEM original part. However, if you choose to alter (key word) your aircraft then the TSO vs non-TSO issue is no longer valid. An aircraft alteration as it is implied is a planned change to an aircraft's type design. And just as it is stated the VAL Avionics article I post on occasion, alterations follow a different set of rules which make installing a non-TSO part legally possible.
 
Thanks. So what I am interpreting is it is possible, now if I can find a IA to sign off is a different Q altogether. Sigh....
 
Thanks. So what I am interpreting is it is possible, now if I can find a IA to sign off is a different Q altogether. Sigh....
That's the windmill I'm tilting against trying to get a skySensor installed on the right wing to go with the skyBeacon on the left since uAvionix isn't progressing with their skyLIght approval.
 
now if I can find a IA to sign off
trying to get a skySensor installed on the right wing
Why not do the leg work to make these installs happen, then go looking for someone to install?? From a mechanic's point it's not so much the installation but the research time involved prior to the install. Anytime you get off the easy/conservative route it takes time to research. Would you be willing to pay for that time upfront? It's hard for a small shop to justify that research time when they have planes sitting outside waiting on work. So why not research the possibility yourselves?? Plenty of free guidance out there to peruse. And if you post your efforts in separate threads you never know what "free" help you may get.;)
 
Why not do the leg work to make these installs happen, then go looking for someone to install?? From a mechanic's point it's not so much the installation but the research time involved prior to the install. Anytime you get off the easy/conservative route it takes time to research. Would you be willing to pay for that time upfront? It's hard for a small shop to justify that research time when they have planes sitting outside waiting on work. So why not research the possibility yourselves?? Plenty of free guidance out there to peruse. And if you post your efforts in separate threads you never know what "free" help you may get.;)

i dont mind putting the legwork myself, but i have to first find out if my IA would even entertain the idea since its his license on the line eventually. I will have a beer talk with him and see where his head is at
 
i dont mind putting the legwork myself, but....
FWIW: walk up to a mechanic and ask if they're interested in installing a non-TSO ASI and they'll say "no." Walk up to a mechanic with a "data package" on how to install a non-TSO ASI and you now have their attention.... hint, hint.
 
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