Airport Question: Street Outlaws

[OkieFlyer]

Many of you may have heard of the Discovery Channel show called Street Outlaws. It's a show about street drag racing that centers on a group of racers here in central Oklahoma (the 405 area code).
Yesterday, one of the car owners, who happens to be from my town originally, approached me at the airport and stated that some of the racing group would like to use our runway to do test runs on our runway in preparation for an upcoming race with similar road conditions. Specifically, they need a closed asphalt course. The show is actually done in a closed course environment rather that actually on the street, which is illegal.
I am on the airport advisory board, but we can't make any actual decisions. It's just an advisory role. So I contacted one of our city counsel members, who relayed it to our city manager. He put a call in to the FAA, and that's where it stands. Waiting to hear back from them.

Those of you who have some experience running airports, or involved in airport business, what do you think the chances are of the FAA letting us do this? Are we required to have FAA permission?

One reason I ask is because we've had a group of RC airplane guys that have used our runway for years for their model planes. They do this with the blessing of the City, and as far as I know, the FAA hasn't had an issue, assuming they know. I would be shocked it they didn't, as the RC guys use the runway at least a couple weekends a month for years. Heck, we even had bleachers set up for RC flying events. That being said, if we allow the RC guys to use the runway, how would that be any different than letting some cars use it for a couple hours, late at night. We would observe the same protocols, as in we have handheld transceivers, and the runway is cleared immediately for any incoming traffic. Airplanes always have the right of way, obviously. Perhaps it sounds stupid, I don't know, but it's a little rural airstrip with maybe 10 operations per week, and we would welcome having the Discovery Channel there and having a fairly high profile show being filmed in our town.

What say you?

 

[DrewG]

I certainly don't have any advice or experience, but I know they did the same thing at El Reno's airport a while back, if I recall correctly. I would imagine there's a protocol in place such as you described. I'd also hope there's something to ensure replacement of runway and/or taxiway edge lights they may bust by steering off the asphalt.

 

[MAKG1]

Can you use a taxiway instead of the runway? NORDO aircraft might be a problem. How do you know who is coming to clear the runway? You won't hear them over the cars. You may or may not spot them -- it's not always easy.

 

[OkieFlyer]

I certainly don't have any advice or experience, but I know they did the same thing at El Reno's airport a while back, if I recall correctly. I would imagine there's a protocol in place such as you described. I'd also hope there's something to ensure replacement of runway and/or taxiway edge lights they may bust by steering off the asphalt.

The guy I talked to said he'd pay for any damages, but I can't imagine any damage would be done to the runway. A runway light or two could be taken out if somebody lost control though.

Can you use a taxiway instead of the runway? NORDO aircraft might be a problem. How do you know who is coming to clear the runway? You won't hear them over the cars. You may or may not spot them -- it's not always easy.

Our taxiway isn't long enough or wide enough, so that's out. You have a good point about NORDO, and I can't say I have a good answer other than they would see all the cars and could do a clearing pass. On the other hand, if someone is having to make an emergency landing without a radio, they'd be screwed.
Although the odds that someone would be landing here late at night are EXTREMELY slim, I'm not sure it's wise to take that chance. We have almost no transient activity, and only 4 planes based here. The other 3 pilots based here would be in the know.

 

[DrewG]

Although the odds that someone would be landing here late at night are EXTREMELY slim, I'm not sure it's wise to take that chance.

An emergency landing...at night...in Lindsay...while Street Outlaws is filming? If that happened, your next step should be to go buy a lottery ticket!

 

[OkieFlyer]

An emergency landing...at night...in Lindsay...while Street Outlaws is filming? If that happened, your next step should be to go buy a lottery ticket!

Amen!

Truth be told, if it were me making the decisions, the Street Outlaws would have run last night, and we wouldn't be having this conversation today. The city manager is by the book, and I totally respect that.

In fact, I offered to take a camera man up in the 182 to film from above, if they get the go ahead. Those cars can outrun me, however.

 

[Ravioli]

Since you already need to talk to the city, why not just ask to temporarily close the ROAD in front of the airport or one side of a divided road in the boonies.

Closing an airport to film a television show glorifying an illegal activity? Can you rent hangars to make meth in your town, or only to film television shows about making meth?

Could make an interesting poll on an aviation themed forum.

What it comes down to is that you don't want to do anything to encourage racer-x and his friends from using your runway for a race track.

 

[Brad Z]

The FAA generally frowns on non-aeronautical use of airports. That said, if the impact is minimal to users of the airport, and the airport is receiving fair market value for use of the facilities, and a implementation plan and damage agreement are established, then it's quite possible they would approve it on a one-time basis.

 

[DrewG]

Truth be told, if it were me making the decisions, the Street Outlaws would have run last night, and we wouldn't be having this conversation today. The city manager is by the book, and I totally respect that.

What I just picked up from re-reading from your first post was that they only wanted to use it to practice, but not to actually film for the show. If that's the case, I wouldn't even bother with it if there was no actual production happening. I would imagine that the production company would be in touch with you as opposed to just one of the racers, if that was the case.

 

[cowman]

I know of one airport and I think there are others that does an air show + radar run event every year. Field is closed by NOTAM and you can take your car out on the runway to see how fast it will go, local police participate and operate the radar.

So yeah I'd say it can be done.

 

[Velocity173]

I don't think it's an FAA issue but a city ordinance issue. Ours doesn't let any non pilot personel on the taxiways or runways unless escorted by the airport manager or has their approval.

I also fly RC planes at the airport but never on a runway. Could be a serious safety issue for NORDO or a FOD problem. I know a guy who wrecked his RC plane on a runway and a plane had to do a go around while he picked up the pieces.

 

[Skip Miller]

This sounds like a revenue opportunity. Charge them a bundle for the runway use. Don't forget to get a whopper of an insurance policy from the racers' organizing group. And then contact the airport's liability insurance carrier, too. Get the City's insurance carrier to give his opinion, too.

 

[ChemGuy]

I think there were other thread/threads about closing airports for non aviation use and how to do it with the FAA's blessing, assuming public funded airport.
I have heard of places closed for races, running events, etc and not all of them were private runways.

 

[Brad Z]

I don't think it's an FAA issue but a city ordinance issue. Ours doesn't let any non pilot personel on the taxiways or runways unless escorted by the airport manager or has their approval.

I also fly RC planes at the airport but never on a runway. Could be a serious safety issue for NORDO or a FOD problem. I know a guy who wrecked his RC plane on a runway and a plane had to do a go around while he picked up the pieces.

It's an FAA issue if the airport is federally obligated...i.e. surplus property or they accepted AIP money.

 

[MAKG1]

An emergency landing...at night...in Lindsay...while Street Outlaws is filming? If that happened, your next step should be to go buy a lottery ticket!

See Gimli Glider. The only part of that missing was the night part.

 

[Brad Z]

I just wanted to mention something real quick, coming from the perspective of a someone who previously did airport compliance enforcement work at FAA HQ. Every year we spend three billion dollars in aviation tax revenue (fuel, passenger taxes, etc.) to fund AIP projects across the country. 3,300 airports are eligible for this money. Most of the money goes to airports that are primarily serve GA (the vast majority of commercial service airports only handle a relatively small number of commercial flights). We (the FAA and the GA community) tout our strong network of airports across the country as vitral infrastructure, and the loss of any single airport node weakens the entire network. We spends thousands of dollars on keeping pavement serviceable, enhancing infrastructure, and improving safety and capacity. We liken our airport network to the national highway network...you wouldn't indiscriminately close down a section of interstate through your community, would you?

Point being, we have told the American people that our airport infrastructure is a vital cog in the national transportation system and local economy. With that in mind, doesn't it make sense that we should be VERY selective in allowing that infrastructure to be used for non-aeronautical purposes?

 

[DrewG]

See Gimli Glider. The only part of that missing was the night part.

You make a decent point. They should have bought lottery tickets, too.

 

[ChemGuy]

I just wanted to mention something real quick, coming from the perspective of a someone who previously did airport compliance enforcement work at FAA HQ. Every year we spend three billion dollars in aviation tax revenue (fuel, passenger taxes, etc.) to fund AIP projects across the country. 3,300 airports are eligible for this money. Most of the money goes to airports that are primarily serve GA (the vast majority of commercial service airports only handle a relatively small number of commercial flights). We (the FAA and the GA community) tout our strong network of airports across the country as vitral infrastructure, and the loss of any single airport node weakens the entire network. We spends thousands of dollars on keeping pavement serviceable, enhancing infrastructure, and improving safety and capacity. We liken our airport network to the national highway network...you wouldn't indiscriminately close down a section of interstate through your community, would you?

Point being, we have told the American people that our airport infrastructure is a vital cog in the national transportation system and local economy. With that in mind, doesn't it make sense that we should be VERY selective in allowing that infrastructure to be used for non-aeronautical purposes?

I agree 100%. But if his airport is like many small GA airports, only seeing a few operations on any given weekday or worse weekend, I dont have a problem with closing the airport so others in the community can use the asphalt. Especially if its commercial use and they pay a few bucks.

I used to race motorcycles so maybe thats why I dont mind using asphalt for non-aviation stuff. As a point of reference, the manager of the club I last raced with, WERA, said the other day that when they rent a full race track with nice facilities etc(Barber in this case) its $12,000 per day for just the track. A smaller track, like Talladega grand prix is ~$2,000 per day or so. I bet most airports, or especially county commissioners, have no problem closing the airport for a couple grand a day.

 

[OkieFlyer]

Thanks for your input here. I appreciate it very much.

We've never received any AIP funding, and I believe at present, we don't qualify for federal grants.

 

[Brad Z]

I agree 100%. But if his airport is like many small GA airports, only seeing a few operations on any given weekday or worse weekend, I dont have a problem with closing the airport so others in the community can use the asphalt. Especially if its commercial use and they pay a few bucks.

I used to race motorcycles so maybe thats why I dont mind using asphalt for non-aviation stuff. As a point of reference, the manager of the club I last raced with, WERA, said the other day that when they rent a full race track with nice facilities etc(Barber in this case) its $12,000 per day for just the track. A smaller track, like Talladega grand prix is ~$2,000 per day or so. I bet most airports, or especially county commissioners, have no problem closing the airport for a couple grand a day.

The FAA generally agrees with you. The FAA requires airports to be as self sustaining as possible, and renting out infrastructure on a very limited basis often makes the difference between operating at a loss, and remaining in the black. As long as all reasonable precautions are taken, and it is done on an infrequent basis, it can be done.

That said, in my experience I found that when the FAA said "OK, you can do that but you have to charge money for it" more often than not the event was moved to another venue. I think many people (airport commissioners included) believe the airport shares the same status as a park and can be used as the local community chooses, free of charge.

 

[Brad Z]

Thanks for your input here. I appreciate it very much.

We've never received any AIP funding, and I believe at present, we don't qualify for federal grants.

OK, that's easy. If the airport is not federally obligated, the only thing the FAA cares about is that you appropriately notam any closures.

 

[OkieFlyer]

Point being, we have told the American people that our airport infrastructure is a vital cog in the national transportation system and local economy. With that in mind, doesn't it make sense that we should be VERY selective in allowing that infrastructure to be used for non-aeronautical purposes?

I take your point, and I would not want to do anything to harm GA. However, assuming no damage is done, having the Discovery Channel and the "405" racing crew in town serves the local community better than an unused piece of asphalt would, especially if they were willing to pay a little. Even if they don't, they'll probably gas up and get something to eat while they are here, give the locals something to do in the way of entertainment, and give folks a chance to meet some famous people. However small the value of having them use our airport may be, it's more value than the alternative for those few hours of the night. We have 4 hangars, no terminal, no gas, no running water, or anything else to offer, so the likelihood of someone needing the airport late at night is far fetched.

Since you already need to talk to the city, why not just ask to temporarily close the ROAD in front of the airport or one side of a divided road in the boonies.

Closing an airport to film a television show glorifying an illegal activity? Can you rent hangars to make meth in your town, or only to film television shows about making meth?

Could make an interesting poll on an aviation themed forum.

What it comes down to is that you don't want to do anything to encourage racer-x and his friends from using your runway for a race track.

Well, meth is illegal wherever you do it. Automobile racing is a legal activity wherever you are permitted to do so. I don't think it's a fair comparison. People have been drag racing cars, motorcycles, and everything else with a motor since they were invented, and they will continue to do so. Taking guys who would be street racing, and putting them on a closed course is a good thing in my opinion. I'd rather have them on my airport than on the street. In our case, there is much less impact on the community if it's done out there on a quiet piece of asphalt, away from neighborhoods, and away from endangering the public.

Sure, it might sound irresponsible to some, but damn it, people race cars for some of the same reason we fly. It's fast, it's loud, it's fun, and you get to experience something that not everybody gets to experience. I say we let them go roast some tires and burn some alcohol 'Murica!!!

 

[James331]

I just wanted to mention something real quick, coming from the perspective of a someone who previously did airport compliance enforcement work at FAA HQ. Every year we spend three billion dollars in aviation tax revenue (fuel, passenger taxes, etc.) to fund AIP projects across the country. 3,300 airports are eligible for this money. Most of the money goes to airports that are primarily serve GA (the vast majority of commercial service airports only handle a relatively small number of commercial flights). We (the FAA and the GA community) tout our strong network of airports across the country as vitral infrastructure, and the loss of any single airport node weakens the entire network. We spends thousands of dollars on keeping pavement serviceable, enhancing infrastructure, and improving safety and capacity. We liken our airport network to the national highway network...you wouldn't indiscriminately close down a section of interstate through your community, would you?

Point being, we have told the American people that our airport infrastructure is a vital cog in the national transportation system and local economy. With that in mind, doesn't it make sense that we should be VERY selective in allowing that infrastructure to be used for non-aeronautical purposes?

That.

I'd rather have RC airplanes than drag racing cars.

Those bud light gargling morons don't care about aviation, they don't shut doors or use trash cans, they offer nothing to GA, just some cash which won't get past "administrative costs" doubt you'll see much of it on the actual airport, and as a pilot I'm less likley to go to a airport and deal with that crap, and way less likley to want to be based out of that airport.

And neighborhood wise, planes are way better than drag racing, especially real drag cars, that chit is loud. Not winning hearts and minds of the locals when it comes to being happy with their local airfield.


Have a highschool build a plane in a hangar, heck even a closely monitored drone activity, airshows, drop zones, etc, things that make people look up at the sky and make folks want to get into aviation.

 

[Brad Z]

I take your point, and I would not want to do anything to harm GA. However, assuming no damage is done, having the Discovery Channel and the "405" racing crew in town serves the local community better than an unused piece of asphalt would, especially if they were willing to pay a little. Even if they don't, they'll probably gas up and get something to eat while they are here, give the locals something to do in the way of entertainment, and give folks a chance to meet some famous people. However small the value of having them use our airport may be, it's more value than the alternative for those few hours of the night. We have 4 hangars, no terminal, no gas, no running water, or anything else to offer, so the likelihood of someone needing the airport late at night is far fetched.

For you it's a moot point. But if you've ever signed an AIP grant for projects, you've agreed that the airport would be used for aeronautical purposes. AIP money is not intended for economic development (even though congressional representatives consider it so), so money should not be spent where there's no need for it. If the likelihood of your airport being used late at night is far fetched (assuming it is lighted), then it's probably not a good candidate for receiving federal funding. Besides, don't medevac flights operate late at night?

Sure, it might sound irresponsible to some, but damn it, people race cars for some of the same reason we fly. It's fast, it's loud, it's fun, and you get to experience something that not everybody gets to experience. I say we let them go roast some tires and burn some alcohol 'Murica!!!

Sounds like your airport would be a good candidate for a grant from the federal autoracing track improvement program!

 

[BigBadLou]

The guy I talked to said he'd pay for any damages, but I can't imagine any damage would be done to the runway. A runway light or two could be taken out if somebody lost control though.

Be careful when it comes to damages.
A light is one thing (a few hundred dollars, right?) But what about the PAPI? Not cheap to replace. Same with asphalt missing after a burnout etc.
Powerful cars can do damage to the road. Oil spills notwithstanding.
The studio better provide good insurance coverage, otherwise the airport board might not be even talking them, period.

But don't lose hope, I have seen airports used for other-than-aviation related activities, including racing.

 

[OkieFlyer]

For you it's a moot point. But if you've ever signed an AIP grant for projects, you've agreed that the airport would be used for aeronautical purposes. AIP money is not intended for economic development (even though congressional representatives consider it so), so money should not be spent where there's no need for it. If the likelihood of your airport being used late at night is far fetched (assuming it is lighted), then it's probably not a good candidate for receiving federal funding. Besides, don't medevac flights operate late at night?



Sounds like your airport would be a good candidate for a grant from the federal autoracing track improvement program!

Haha! You may be right about the FATI program. Truly, it's pretty sad how little use our airport gets. We do have a city manager now that would like to improve it greatly, if we can get the council and the people behind the effort, but it's tough when you have a total of 4 pilots in town. We would like to be able to get some of those federal funds down the road, but we're going to have to do some things on our own dime to become eligible. It is lighted, btw.

Medevac does operate at night, but they use the helipad at the hospital, a couple miles away.

 

[OkieFlyer]

Be careful when it comes to damages.
A light is one thing (a few hundred dollars, right?) But what about the PAPI? Not cheap to replace. Same with asphalt missing after a burnout etc.
Powerful cars can do damage to the road. Oil spills notwithstanding.
The studio better provide good insurance coverage, otherwise the airport board might not be even talking them, period.

But don't lose hope, I have seen airports used for other-than-aviation related activities, including racing.

PAPI? I think there's one of those over in the next town

 

[Ravioli]

Well, meth is illegal wherever you do it.

Street racing is illegal. And they seem to be advocating it. I Googled that for ya.

 

[James331]

Medevac does operate at night, but they use the helipad at the hospital, a couple miles away.

Unless the pt is 300lbs, the weather goes to crap, it's a long range transport, it's cabin pressure sensitive, specialized equipment is needed, the chopper is down for mx or crew, etc, in which case it's going to be a fixed wing.

Seems like it would be better to find a long road in the middle of no where that gets little use, and have your local PD close it off and use it for racing, looks more the part, it's built for cars, less expensive crap to break or FOD concerned, just overall makes sense.

 

[Acrodustertoo]

Saw an episode of that show once, most of the participants have a family tree resembling a carrot. They have no business anywhere near an airport with their cars and drunken friends.

 

[OkieFlyer]

Unless the pt is 300lbs, the weather goes to crap, it's a long range transport, it's cabin pressure sensitive, specialized equipment is needed, the chopper is down for mx or crew, etc, in which case it's going to be a fixed wing.

Seems like it would be better to find a long road in the middle of no where that gets little use, and have your local PD close it off and use it for racing, looks more the part, it's built for cars, less expensive crap to break or FOD concerned, just overall makes sense.

Perhaps. Never heard of anyone being transported by fixed wing here, but it's possible. If you gotta go fixed wing, it's quicker to take an ambulance ride to OKC.

Saw an episode of that show once, most of the participants have a family tree resembling a carrot. They have no business anywhere near an airport with their cars and drunken friends.

Haha! I suppose so. Some of the guys are turds. The one I've been in contact with is well respected. He's also a 30+ year pilot with just as much love for GA as us. Currently flies a Cirrus, and is rated in a couple of different light jets. He's a real good guy. He doesn't drive anymore, but owns a car and hires a driver.

https://www.questia.com/newspaper/1P2-30769793/oklahoma-s-most-admired-ceos-profile-charles-w-russ

Remember how often we've griped about the stupid drama injected into reality shows like Airplane Repo, Flying Wild, etc.? They do that in Street Outlaws too.

 

[James331]

Depends, it's a short hop for a fixed wing, not sure how far the hospitable is from the airport, but you're talking a 56min drive vs 15 min flight, plus it's often also a level of care issue.

Medevac aside, as someone who had a...unplanned landing at a airport at night once, screwing with airport usage for airplanes is never a good idea.

 

[Acrodustertoo]

He flies a cirrus? That is a clue right there that he depends on parachutes too much. Better get a massive cash deposite first and a fine of $1000 for every beer can you find the day after.

 

[RyanB]

A couple of years ago at my home drome, we had an open house and the Corvette Club came and shot down the runway, putting on a show for everybody. Not sure how they got it arranged but apparently it can be done.

 

[James331]

A couple of years ago at my home drome, we had an open house and the Corvette Club came and shot down the runway, putting on a show for everybody. Not sure how they got it arranged but apparently it can be done.

FOD check

 

[RyanB]

FOD check

Ha! You could justify it like that.

 

[OkieFlyer]

He flies a cirrus? That is a clue right there that he depends on parachutes too much. Better get a massive cash deposite first and a fine of $1000 for every beer can you find the day after.

You do have a very valid point there


Anywho, I'm not married to the idea of having them run at our airport. They asked if they could, and given the low likelihood that it would get an anyone's way, I thought it might be fun, and wondered what the FAA might think of it. Thanks for the input.

 

[Zeldman]

Street racing is illegal. And they seem to be advocating it. I Googled that for ya.
View attachment 48605

Hee hee hee.... your funny..!!! They are advocating a Tv show.

You must not know much about racing. I don't watch the show very often, but they do race on public streets that are well barricaded and that are closed for the show. There is emergency medical folks and fire and rescue on premises. As in any racing activity, they have rules that must be adhered to or they do not get to run their cars. It is called street racing because it sells a show. The local airport here, the runway is called airplane road. Does that mean we are taking off and landing on a public road system?

Racing is not rednecks racing the moonshine haulers for bragging rights like it was 75 years ago, no matter how hard you want people to believe it.

Fact is, most racers are pilots and are now so busy with their businesses that they have to hire pilots to fly their teams and executives around.

 

[Acrodustertoo]

At a couple airdromes I used to frequent, it was not uncommon for one of the locals to blast down the runway when it was safe to do so but no burn outs or other suck nonsense that could damage the nice Tarmac.

 

[OkieFlyer]

That.

I'd rather have RC airplanes than drag racing cars.

Those bud light gargling morons don't care about aviation, they don't shut doors or use trash cans, they offer nothing to GA, just some cash which won't get past "administrative costs" doubt you'll see much of it on the actual airport, and as a pilot I'm less likley to go to a airport and deal with that crap, and way less likley to want to be based out of that airport.

And neighborhood wise, planes are way better than drag racing, especially real drag cars, that chit is loud. Not winning hearts and minds of the locals when it comes to being happy with their local airfield.


Have a highschool build a plane in a hangar, heck even a closely monitored drone activity, airshows, drop zones, etc, things that make people look up at the sky and make folks want to get into aviation.

You obviously don't have a clue what would be going on. These are high tech cars making test passes, techs pouring over data, and tuning with laptops, with their millionaire owners in their escalades overseeing their investment, or even in the car themselves. This ain't a bunch of drunken idiots throwing beer cans all over the airport. Despite what you may think, the level of sophistication is much higher than you credit them with.

Although I'm not closely involved with racing, I happen to know 4 racers personally. All are well respected businessmen, and passionate racers in their spare time. 3 out of the 4 are pilots. One flies a Cirrus, one flies the 1963 C-182 in the hangar next to mine, the other buys, fixes, and sells airplanes for fun, and flies a King Air. So don't sit there and pretend that these guys don't give a crap about GA, because some of them are very active participants in GA themselves, and care just as much about it as you and I. Sure there can be some morons involved, but morons walk among us everyday. In this case, it's a test session, not an event, and only the people with the airport gate code can get in. The public would be welcome to watch from the parking area if they want.

I apologize for the rant. Carry on.