Airport in sight, yeah, right

R

RobertGerace

Guest
Not that I would ever do this, but...

Here you are after "expect visual"...five thousand feet (or more) above the TDZE and 10-20 miles from the airport. ATC is going to *keep* you there until you report 'Airport in sight.'

You have the approach dialed in on your Garmin because you have found that the course guidance makes it much easier and much less embarrasing when you arrive (mistakes prevented by doing so: wrong airport, wrong runway, overflying the airport looking for the runway, etc.)

So, here you are. You know you need to get down, and you don't want a crowbar. You have 99.9% confidence that you can find the airport (Even though you can't see it at the moment.) You are on a perfect vector to intercept the inbound course. You are in CAVU day or night conditions. You know the MSA is 2,500 and here you sit at 5,000. You want down, but you don't want to cancel IFR. What to do?

Do you wait until you're 4 miles from the airport...call it in sight, and either do 360's or some other dumb-thing to get down...OR...

Have you ever been tempted to just go ahead and call it in sight when it isn't?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Airport in sight essentially tells ATC that you will maintain all required visual separations (aircraft, terrain, clouds, trees, etc) until landing, and you will find your way directly to the airport (or designated point on the approach, thence to the airport). They really do expect you to see it.

That being said, if it is CAVU, and I know the airport, I'll cancel IFR because it (1) will generally let me get lower, (2) it'll free up the protected area for the poor pilot that's sitting in the runup area waiting for you to cancel so they can get their clearance, and (3) the controller will appreciate it. One trick is to cancel IFR but request to stay on flight-following until switching over to local frequency.

I generally wouldn't do this in a Class B (nor would I do it anywhere near the DC ADIZ or P-49). I also won't do it if weather is marginal or ground fog is likely. But it is one technique to continue getting advisories without fully tying up the IFR system.

The one time I told the controller "I think I see it", his response was, "tell me when you're sure".
 
RobertGerace said:
You know the MSA is 2,500 and here you sit at 5,000. You want down, but you don't want to cancel IFR. What to do?
Click to expand...

Why not just ask for 3000? If they say yes, then you're golden. If they say no, then maybe they have a good reason to be keeping you at 5000.

--Kath
(a beginner at this stuff still)
 
"Airport in sight, but I do not wish to cancel IFR. I'll call on the ground."
 
The point is I don't want to cancel IFR. I feel like I earned the privilige to fly under IFR, and there are many, many benefits to doing so.

In fact, I let myself get talked into cancelling the other day, and I was mad at myself for hours.

ATC: 310RG Airport 10 miles, 12 o'clock, report in sight, and report cancelling IFR IN THE AIR, or on the ground xxx.x...NO TRAFFIC observed between you and the airport.

Me: Wilco.

ATC: repeated exact same message 1 minute later

Me: Wilco

ATC: repeated exact same message 1 minute later

Me: Cancel IFR

ATC: THANK YOU! SQUAWK 1200 SEE YA!

I don't like that. If something happens I've just lost my safety net.

Also...on altitudes...sometimes the MVA is higher than the MSA; so you can't ask for any lower than you already are.

Believe me, I'll ask for lower until they say they are unable...which is the altitude where this post starts. :)
 
RobertGerace said:
.....
Have you ever been tempted to just go ahead and call it in sight when it isn't?
Click to expand...


Who me? Nooooooo ;)
 
Bob, don't let them put pressure on you! You do not have to cancel IFR.

RobertGerace said:
ATC: 310RG Airport 10 miles, 12 o'clock, report in sight, and report cancelling IFR IN THE AIR, or on the ground xxx.x...NO TRAFFIC observed between you and the airport.
QUOTE]

Bob: "Thanks, will report airport in sight, and I will cancel when on the ground."

Period.
Click to expand...
 
What about a contact approach?
If I understand those correctly, you can request one if you can see the ground, can remain clear of clouds in 1-mile visibility, and basically know that you can navigate yourself to the airport without hitting anything (even if you can't see the airport itself yet). But you're still IFR. Sounds perfect for this situation.

--Kath
 
RobertGerace said:
The point is I don't want to cancel IFR. I feel like I earned the privilige to fly under IFR, and there are many, many benefits to doing so.

In fact, I let myself get talked into cancelling the other day, and I was mad at myself for hours.

ATC: 310RG Airport 10 miles, 12 o'clock, report in sight, and report cancelling IFR IN THE AIR, or on the ground xxx.x...NO TRAFFIC observed between you and the airport.

Me: Wilco.

ATC: repeated exact same message 1 minute later

Me: Wilco

ATC: repeated exact same message 1 minute later

Me: Cancel IFR

ATC: THANK YOU! SQUAWK 1200 SEE YA!

I don't like that. If something happens I've just lost my safety net.

Also...on altitudes...sometimes the MVA is higher than the MSA; so you can't ask for any lower than you already are.

Believe me, I'll ask for lower until they say they are unable...which is the altitude where this post starts. :)
Click to expand...

Robert, depends on the familiarization I have with the airport I'm going to. There are times I will ask for a practice approach if I don't want to cancel or get a slam dunk into the airport. If I am real familiar with the area and airport, then canceling 15 miles out give me a chance to start communicating with Unicom (or tower) and other traffic. At times this lowers my pucker factor a little.

Mark
 
RobertGerace said:
The point is I don't want to cancel IFR.

Believe me, I'll ask for lower until they say they are unable...which is the altitude where this post starts. :)
Click to expand...

Bob, if that's the case, then just don't worry about it. You'll see the airport when you see it. If you don't see it, don't tell 'em you do.

Maybe I don't understand the point of your post... :confused: if it's the safety net you want, then why worry about telling them you see the airport if you really don't??? :confused: :confused:

My guess is that ATC had other traffic they were trying to get in or out, and were gently suggesting that you could help a fellow pilot if you cancelled....
 
Now, see, I'm an enroute controller by profession and this thread just makes me mad!!! Not at pilots, but at civil servants who aren't providing service in the most critical phase of flight. You're still on your instrument flight plan on a visual approach, but no way should you be coerced even into a visual. I suppose the only option is to request a specific approach. A lousy controller will at least try to muddle through the clearance. This business of soliciting cancellations, and that's what it is, is not good. Oops, I just stubbed my toe falling off my soapbox. Did feel good to vent, though. :(
 
wsuffa said:
Maybe I don't understand the point of your post... :confused: if it's the safety net you want, then why worry about telling them you see the airport if you really don't???
Click to expand...
I think his point is that he doesn't want to get a slam dunk descent to the runway.

I once heard a VFR pilot tell a Center controller the airport was in sight ... and he was more than 30 NM AWAY!! The controller was incredulous that someone would even pretend at that distance.
 
Bill,

I want my cake, and I want to eat it too. I know it is safe to descend and I know I'll find the airport; but they want to hold me high until I say I see it.

I'm sure the correct answer is: I need more practice in finding airports. However, the nature of my flying is that other than the few 'regulars' I'm always flying to strange and new airports.

I am getting better at it. I've learned to have the airport diagram and to study it. I've learned that in bright cities sometimes the only dark spot is the runway. I've learned to look for the white/green. I've learned to look for the REIL (and to know if I should be looking for them by looking at the charts.)

I've learned alot about pilot controlled lighting, and the fact that it may or may not be on the Unicom frequency.

But the bottom line is that loading an approach on the Garmin is the easy-as-pie way to find it. Being vectored to the approach course and seeing it happen on the 530 and MX-20...there is no mistaking where the airport and runway are.

I know why they won't let you down if you don't see it. Because even if you do see it, like the 135 (or was it 121?) guys who thought they lost sight of the airport because of clouds when in fact it was mountains...last thing they thought.

In mountainous areas it would never enter my mind. But in the midwest or near the coast?
 
I got that by Palm Springs approach Friday; just wanted to turn me over to tower. I didn't see the runway until five miles out. Something to do with us Texicans looking for pavement amoungst greenscape. This brown runway in the desert---land of the beautiful-- is difficult for me when not line up with the runway.

Got the old cleared to land from 7,000 feet on 31L; I requested 31 right. PS Approach controller got miffed and said I could request "anything I wanted" from tower and contact them now. Tower asked me to shoot straight to the numbers and 31R was just ducky, maintain maximum forward speed. Gear down to lose altitude, then when just above normal approach angle, gear up and add power. One mile out, reduce speed to Vlo and gear down again.

Coming into PSP Friday afternoon doesn't have to be this difficult. Tower was much more composed than approach.

Best,

Dave S.
 
Ken Ibold said:
I think his point is that he doesn't want to get a slam dunk descent to the runway.

I once heard a VFR pilot tell a Center controller the airport was in sight ... and he was more than 30 NM AWAY!! The controller was incredulous that someone would even pretend at that distance.
Click to expand...

Ken. You're right on the money. "Just say no" to slam dunks in a clean airplane with turbos.

Here's another reason:

Once on the way home from Simcom I was about a mile from intercepting the localizer at my home airport of LZU. There was a haze layer just under my altitude and the sun was setting to the west (same direction as inbound course.)

I knew all I had to do was turn left and intercept the localizer and ride the glideslope down below the haze layer and land with no problem.

(I call this, the gerace-unofficial-ILS approach) ;)

But I told the truth. I told the controller I could not see the runway due to haze.

My visual approach clearance was cancelled, and I got a 10 minute vector to (incredulously) come back and intercept the localizer for the ILS approach.

Sheesh.
 
Okay, so plan on doing the approach. Everytime. You're on an IFR clearance and you can decline the visual. Just let the controller know at initial call up that that's what you want to do. If I ever have any doubt, especially at night, I ask for vectors and if they're not available (rarely) I do the full deal. Way too many airplanes parked in the sides of hills doing night time visuals as far as I'm concerned.
 
Kath,


I don't know about the contact approach. It sounds like it would work. I guess I've just never heard it done. For my experience, in good weather you will always get a visual, and anybody asking for something different tends to slown down the system. I might try it, however, as it would actually speed up the system without 'fibbing.'


Lisa,

Thanks for your frustration. Where it happened, Statesville, there do tend to be kerosene burners waiting for me to land, and admittedly I'm not in a hurry in the approach and landing regime.

I like to slow down to about 120 knots by about 10 miles. That gives me 5 minutes to get things cooled down, run my checklists, do a final brief of the airport diagram and approach...all at a relaxed pace.

I don't know what that costs the jet. At CLT the other day a CRJ asked for 5 minutes on the taxiway to burn off '150 pounds of fuel.' What is that, about $80 or $100...at most?

While I can be sensitive to that, I also don't want two heads-down-pilots blasting past me either.

A lesson I did learn, though, is to cancel on final if I have the runway made. The poor guys in the jet can't take off even if they saw me land...and in many airports you can't talk to the approach controllers from the ground...now they are burning 15 or 20 minutes of fuel and not happy as I am calling WX-BRIEF to find out the phone number for the local FSS. :mad:
 
Fast n' Furious said:
Okay, so plan on doing the approach. Everytime. You're on an IFR clearance and you can decline the visual. Just let the controller know at initial call up that that's what you want to do. If I ever have any doubt, especially at night, I ask for vectors and if they're not available (rarely) I do the full deal. Way too many airplanes parked in the sides of hills doing night time visuals as far as I'm concerned.
Click to expand...

Ya know...you've got a great point. And those rare full deals might get me a holding pattern to log (outside of SimCom) once in a while. And I could always use the practice flying a full approach. And this would have prevented the 10 minute vector on the way back from SimCom.

By George, I think I've got it!
 
The other thing you might what to pursue is some additional professional instruction from someone who can help you learn to manage your airplane in the high density/high speed/high work load environment. The more you can do to learn and refine your technique to get the most out of your airplane and help to keep the traffic flow going (especially at places like Stateville, Concord, and the ATL metro area the better off, and more comfortable you'll be.
 
Fast n' Furious said:
The other thing you might what to pursue is some additional professional instruction from someone who can help you learn to manage your airplane in the high density/high speed/high work load environment. The more you can do to learn and refine your technique to get the most out of your airplane and help to keep the traffic flow going (especially at places like Stateville, Concord, and the ATL metro area the better off, and more comfortable you'll be.
Click to expand...

Yeah; I had it down to a 'T' in somebody else's airplane. I'm trying to be easy on mine. ;)
 
I understand completely. What? You actually EXPECT to make TBO? I don't miss piston airplanes at all.:D
 
Last summer I had to go to NYC, went into LDJ. The GPSA requires that you cancel by BAUTZ because of proximity to EWR. I really couldn't see the airport when he started to hint that he wanted me to cancel. The HECK I was going to transgress in that airspace.

After three courteous exchanges, I said, "Still do not have the airport. Am Expecting to have shortly. Will cancel by BAUTZ".

Sure enough, about .3 from BAUTZ, I got the field- the open space just southwest of the fuel tanks. Now I can't get into him....but I finally did to cancel.

No way am I busting a "B". Nope nohow noway.

Last fall I was going to a Lifeline Pilots Ohio gathering at Sandusky. Boy they held me at 5,000 and I could NOT see the airport. Good thing I did not cancel. There was a Cessna 172 VFR talking to nobody about 2 SW (Traffic watch), and Citation Screaming in from the NE and moi. I get to final, cancel, go to unicom, then I hear the Cessna pilot screaming at the Citation driver, who is just trying not to fall outta da sky (3559 ft. is pretty short in a C 500!). Flew the entire descent with half flaps, slip, gear out, nose up, 125 kts.

If you don't want to cancel you probably have good reason.
 
Bob, you've got a hell of a lot more instrument hours than my 50 or so, but I have a sugggestion for you, which you are free to flush down the toilet: do what you need to do. The commuter guys might be on the ground waiting for you to cancel, but they are safe, and they aren't paying for the gas. Meanwhile, you are single pilot up there in your twin, and you primary goal for you and your passengers is to get down safely. It matters not whether you are flying a nonprecision approach to minimums at a nontowered airport, or flying a visual on a clear day to a class B airport. You are on an instrument flight plan, and you have a right to stay on that plan until you're safe and sound, on the ground. :zap!:
 
Here's another one. Very very busy today coming out of MDW for PIA. Three 737s on the left 31C taxiway and three (A Falcon, a G-IV) on the right (I'm #2 looking at their wheels). Departing both 31C and 22 (crossing in the middle). Tower controller a bit overloaded. Clears a SWA to land on 31C when he just finished setting him up for a base on 22. SWA questions the instruction and is remanded to 22. SWA declares "cannot comply, going around".

Tower is very quiet. Different voice comes on. Issues instruction for pattern at or below 2000 for SWA on go around. Gets one out while he's going around. When my turn comes, departure clears me to 3,000 then 4000 then 6000 heading 180. Just after my "climb 6000" he clears another SWA inbound from the southwest to 5000 sounds like he's going to cross my path. 5 seconds later, a pointout to the descending SWA "Can you maintain visual sep?" just as I'm putting it to 100% power.

"Negative, he's behind the engine nacelle but I'll be at 6K in fifteen seconds".
"Thank you! Contact departure on 133.5 have a nice day". They were not having a nice day.

65% to 100% and back to 65% in one minute. I'll never make TBO like that.
 
Another turbine convert just around the corner. When we're you in Bangor, ME by the way Doc? Oh, yeah...aviation related...never accept a clearance you can't do.
 
Robert:

I didn't point out is that I don't have a problem doing a slam dunk if I've reasonably anticipated it and have time to let my CHTs cool below about 330 degrees (you can't shock cool what isn't hot begin with!!). As I approach a busy area and can tell I'm not being stepped down properly, I begin reducing power. On my recent Palm Springs approach, I could see they were keeping me high and could monitor the other traffic: so, I had already lowered MP to 25", then 21" a few minutes later. CHTs slowly dropped to 320; then I pulled back power to 17" where I was for about one minute before I had to drop the gear and come down.

Read some of the Deakin and Braly stuff. They strongly feel that a rapid descent is not an issue if you don't come in hot. I've flown with George and watched him keep CHTs up in a descent by pulling the prop back in a descent and adjusting mixture to manage a slow decrease in CHTs.

There are ways to do it if you can reasonably anticipate. I have used the term unable when a controlled directed a rapid descent unexpectedly.

Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADS
 
A couple of years ago I went into Chihuahua, Mx with my Bellanca Viking. VFR. And it was clear and a million. The only other inbound was a large freight hauler jet coming in from the north, obviously going to beat me by a couple minutes. I was really high because its the only way to get atc as you cross the border and I like to talk crossing, plus you can't hear approach until very close unless you are up there. So coming into Chi, the controller assigns me "maintain 10K", no amount of negotiating will get him to allow me lower. Maybe I had the right, I wasn't real familiar with Mx rules so I stay there, asking for a descent which I got when I was RIGHT OVER the airport. We were looking at each other and shaking our heads. I had listened to the freight guy land and had it nice and slow and cool by then and approach says only this; "03V, you can land now, contact tower". It was kind of funny, as we threw out all the anchors and circled down to the quietest class C I'd been to.
 
Also, I flew with a guy who reported in sight 40 miles out once. It was a clear day and indubitably the vis was up there. When I asked him about it he said, 'there it is, right there - I can see it." as he pointed to the moving map display.
 
wangmyers said:
Bob, ... :zap!:
Click to expand...

Ben,

I've got a lot to learn and I appreciate your advice. You really get to the finer points of instrument flight and I often learn from your posts. Please keep them coming! :D
 
bbchien said:
65% to 100% and back to 65% in one minute. I'll never make TBO like that.
Click to expand...

Ouch! Exactly the kind of stuff I used to not care about that has become critical.

I'm also trying to be 5 knots under gear and flaps max speeds before I deploy them; I try to land as slowly as is safe, I try not to slam on the brakes...it is a whole new way of flying. ;)
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Robert:


Read some of the Deakin and Braly stuff. They strongly feel that a rapid descent is not an issue if you don't come in hot. I've flown with George and watched him keep CHTs up in a descent by pulling the prop back in a descent and adjusting mixture to manage a slow decrease in CHTs.
Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADS
Click to expand...

Dave, yeah; And with my JPI I can see that the 2"/2 min then 1"/1 min was way slower than it needed to be.

I'm more concerned about gear/flaps/brakes/and yes, Deakin and Braly respectfully noted, also 65-100-65 (as in my reply to Bruce).

Thanks!
 
Bob,

I agree with you on the slam-dunks. I'm also turbocharged.

Someone else offered the advice I was going to offer up. If it's not busy, ask for the approach.

ANd if you're not comfortable, don't.

I'd do the same thing. Though I am willing to take the visual or cancel sometimes to speed the arrival....

best,

bill
 
lsimonds said:
Now, see, I'm an enroute controller by profession and this thread just makes me mad!!! Not at pilots, but at civil servants who aren't providing service in the most critical phase of flight. You're still on your instrument flight plan on a visual approach, but no way should you be coerced even into a visual. I suppose the only option is to request a specific approach. A lousy controller will at least try to muddle through the clearance. This business of soliciting cancellations, and that's what it is, is not good. Oops, I just stubbed my toe falling off my soapbox. Did feel good to vent, though. :(
Click to expand...
Thank you Lisa.
 
Got almost the same drill returning yesterday going into Palm Springs to pick up the pack I dropped off Friday. Seem you must be high to clear the mountains between San Diego and PSP, then drop down to the airport (that wasn't the case coming in from the east on Friday).

When LA center turned me over to Palm Beach Approach, I called in relating I had the ATIS and airport in sight. They turned me toward the airport but kept me at 10,000 until about 10 miles out. In between, Gulf Stream this called in and Falcon that. They finally cleared me for the visual and turned me over to tower. I kept 160 knots throughout the descent, which tower said was appreciated.

One way to quickly locate a ground handler (when none comes out to guide you in) is to park right in front of the FBO with 20 jets lined up across a parking line. Hadn't even gotten my puppy out of the plane before someone ran out and asked how long I'd be there!! Nice huh? Told them I just needed a top off and I'd be on my way. Kinda interesting to see all these people walking out to their jet with their head kinda of turned as they walked by the A-36. Pretty rude huh?

FBO said the 100LL truck wasn't working. Hummm. Think that was correct?

So, I loaded up my passenger and got outta their way. Is Signature any better over there? Atlantic (former Millionair) was pretty illequiped to handle my A-36. Nice FBO and they weren't rude, but it was clear they had bigger fish on their mind.

Best,

Dave S
A-36TN ADS
 
Last edited:
Ken Ibold said:
I think his point is that he doesn't want to get a slam dunk descent to the runway.

I once heard a VFR pilot tell a Center controller the airport was in sight ... and he was more than 30 NM AWAY!! The controller was incredulous that someone would even pretend at that distance.
Click to expand...

Sometimes you can. Coming into an airport in the middle of nowhere and you've been there enough times to know exactly what to look for, some part of the airport may show up 30-40 miles out on a nice clear day. OTOH if the reported vis is 6 miles and you say you've got the airport spotted from 25 miles away, I'd suspect you were stretching the truth.

Kath's query about a contact approach is a good one. If you can't see the airport, but know how to get there visually (sans GPS, it might quit) and there's no chance that clouds or low vis will prevent your finding the field, then requesting a Contact Approach is a good way to go.

Cancelling IFR also works, but can get you into trouble if there's a Class B or C in your way, or if conditions aren't quite VMC all the way in.

And Bob, chances are pretty good that the reason that ATC was bugging you to cancel was that there was another IFR coming or going that you were holding up. Now if you want the continued protection that IFR provides, there's no reason you should cave in and cancel, but personally I don't normally want to hold up another pilot if I've got the airport in sight and the conditions are severe VMC, even though it means that nobody might notice if I didnt' quite make it to the runway.
 
RobertGerace said:
Not that I would ever do this, but...

<SNIP>

So, here you are. You know you need to get down, and you don't want a crowbar. You have 99.9% confidence that you can find the airport (Even though you can't see it at the moment.) You are on a perfect vector to intercept the inbound course. You are in CAVU day or night conditions. You know the MSA is 2,500 and here you sit at 5,000. You want down, but you don't want to cancel IFR. What to do?

Do you wait until you're 4 miles from the airport...call it in sight, and either do 360's or some other dumb-thing to get down...OR...

Have you ever been tempted to just go ahead and call it in sight when it isn't?
Click to expand...

No! See AIM

5-4-21. Visual Approach

a. A visual approach is conducted on an IFR flight plan and authorizes a pilot to proceed visually and clear of clouds to the airport. The pilot must have either the airport or the preceding identified aircraft in sight. This approach must be authorized and controlled by the appropriate air traffic control facility. Reported weather at the airport must have a ceiling at or above 1,000 feet and visibility 3 miles or greater. ATC may authorize this type approach when it will be operationally beneficial. Visual approaches are an IFR procedure conducted under IFR in visual meteorological conditions. Cloud clearance requirements of 14 CFR Section 91.155 are not applicable, unless required by operation specifications.
Click to expand...

So your statement that you would never do this is correct.

Contact Approaches: I've only done them when I was intimately familiar with the airport and its environs. I haven't done one in about 20 years and while I used to do them somewhat regularly, I don't think I would today.

Cancel IFR: I will when there is a good reason to, such as departing or following IFR traffic AND the following conditions exists. a) I have the runway in sight - the field alone is not good enough, I've mistakenly thought a dark whole with lights was the airport enough times to want the runway in sight. b) Weather must be at least 3000 and 5 miles. I don't want to do go around at an unfamiliar airport and get trapped by low couds or poor vis. c) no aircraft abnormalities. I don't give up IFR protections when I'm working on other problems.

Airport in sight when still a good distance away. Usually, when you are expecting the visual the controller starts asking if you have the field in sight when you are still a considerable distance away. You may even have the field in sight from 20 or more miles out on a good day. Nonetheless, I don't accept the visual approach until I am within 10 miles. Why? Again back to AIM 5-4-21:

d. Separation Responsibilities. If the pilot has the airport in sight but cannot see the aircraft to be followed, ATC may clear the aircraft for a visual approach; however, ATC retains both separation and wake vortex separation responsibility. When visually following a preceding aircraft, acceptance of the visual approach clearance constitutes acceptance of pilot responsibility for maintaining a safe approach interval and adequate wake turbulence separation.
Click to expand...

So, if there is no traffic and you are cleared the visual you are basically on your own. I'll take the services if they're available, at least until I'm close enough to the airport to get a picture of the traffic situation.

These self imposed rules have worked well for me for nearly 30 years, but this is after all just a self imposed set of rules. As they say on line, your mileage may vary.
 
Arnold,


Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful answer. You are right, of course.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top